Sexism and the like....

sharksteethss

As a man with what is considered a strange viewpoint, i'm just wondering can anyone shed any light for me on the reasons why women seem to be so hated in this country?...
everywhere i go the lads are making fools of women, and making absurd comments to women, which if anything similar was said from male to male, it would result in fisticuffs! Women seem to accept this, but it riles me when i see these things.

In private discussions men will blame women for everything, and the tone of dislike and derision is awful, basically referring to women being a necessary evil to keep life somewhere near comfortable, and how to get the most from women in terms of free labor?!! i find this horrific and it is really bothering me lately

I have 3 teenage daughters and a partner and we demand equally from each other, as it should be.

I do have fear for the life my daughters are entering, and what kind of life can they end up with with a majority of men seeming to be what i can only describe as woman haters, and this comes from every walk of life as i meet all sorts on a daily basis, being a surveyor.

Any comments or reassurances welcome!

digme

Easy watch MTV bud and you'll soon see what women aspire to be.
WHORES. Watch tv on a saturday night,who wants to be a star,women are there for mens pleasure and that is all.I don't think this myself, but the tv teaches young kids this.Bras for 7 year olds, pole dancing kits for 7 year olds, you get the picture.

my advice to you is fck the telly out the window.

oh and just so you know there are 2 sexes.

sharksteethss

well from what i can see, the women seem to be damned if they do and damned if they don't! I've given this a lot of thought..

My wife was called a whore in a car park because she stopped to allow pedestrians to cross in front of her, by the man following in the car behind.., and that seems to be the general consensus.

Please explain the 'two sexes' you mentioned? I might not have a full understanding:p

I would just like to see people treating people with respect, and for that not to mean men treat men with respect, and women whatever way benefits at the given time..

Maybe i'm just jaded

Dades

sharksteethss wrote: »

As a man with what is considered a strange viewpoint, i'm just wondering can anyone shed any light for me on the reasons why women seem to be so hated in this country?...
everywhere i go the lads are making fools of women, and making absurd comments to women, which if anything similar was said from male to male, it would result in fisticuffs! Women seem to accept this, but it riles me when i see these things.

In private discussions men will blame women for everything, and the tone of dislike and derision is awful, basically referring to women being a necessary evil to keep life somewhere near comfortable, and how to get the most from women in terms of free labor?!! i find this horrific and it is really bothering me lately

Where do you live?

I honestly never witness anything like this, or are privy to private discussions that take that tone.

Beruthiel

sharksteethss wrote: »

Maybe i'm just jaded

I'd say it's more to do with the fact that as you have four women in your life you have just become more aware of the misogyny that is out there.

I do have fear for the life my daughters are entering

If you have brought them up to respect themselves and not let sexism slide, they will be grand.
I believe that a lot of younger women don't even know/get when a sexist remark has been thrown their way.

prinz

sharksteethss wrote: »

In private discussions men will blame women for everything, and the tone of dislike and derision is awful, basically referring to women being a necessary evil to keep life somewhere near comfortable, and how to get the most from women in terms of free labor?!! i find this horrific and it is really bothering me lately..

Perhaps you should change the company you keep? Respect is something which works both ways.

Denerick

I blame stupid parents who buy/watch stupid things for/with their stupid children.

Trog

I think there's a lot of people (men and women) in society who don't think about the ethics of their views, and unfortunately this breeds the kind of ignorance you're talking about OP.

But there's always going to be a lot of this in society, and you can only do 3 things about it (I mean everyone, not just you):
1. Think about your own actions and live as you think is right, independently of everyone else in society. Live by your own morals, no one else's.
2. Teach your children to do 1.
3. Teach your children to respect other people's views, no matter how ignorant they are.

The 3rd one is tricky, but if everyone did these 3 things, we'd all be better off.

As to why people are the way they are? I'm stumped.

irishh_bob

sharksteethss wrote: »

As a man with what is considered a strange viewpoint, i'm just wondering can anyone shed any light for me on the reasons why women seem to be so hated in this country?...
everywhere i go the lads are making fools of women, and making absurd comments to women, which if anything similar was said from male to male, it would result in fisticuffs! Women seem to accept this, but it riles me when i see these things.

In private discussions men will blame women for everything, and the tone of dislike and derision is awful, basically referring to women being a necessary evil to keep life somewhere near comfortable, and how to get the most from women in terms of free labor?!! i find this horrific and it is really bothering me lately

I have 3 teenage daughters and a partner and we demand equally from each other, as it should be.

I do have fear for the life my daughters are entering, and what kind of life can they end up with with a majority of men seeming to be what i can only describe as woman haters, and this comes from every walk of life as i meet all sorts on a daily basis, being a surveyor.

Any comments or reassurances welcome!

replace the word women with men in the 1st few paragraphs and daughters with sons in your last and i agree with your post entirely

Gary L

Trog wrote: »

I think there's a lot of people in society who don't think about the ethics of their views, and unfortunately this breeds the kind of ignorance you're talking about OP.

+1, To put it another way, people rarely question their own first principles. Changing ones mind on big issues requires a level of introspection our society doesnt encourage.

If we're on to ranting about general ignorance now I also take issue with the faithful manner in which people soak up any widely accepted idea among their peers. The result is the kind of inadequate consensus reality that allows for misogyny and all other bigotry.

Trog

Gary L wrote: »

If we're on to ranting about general ignorance now I also take issue with the faithful manner in which people soak up any widely accepted idea among their peers. The result is the kind of inadequate consensus reality that allows for misogyny and all other bigotry.

Just look at how many people regurgitate phrases when talking about popular topics like the recession or football. People tend not to form their own opinions based on their own views, probably because they're afraid of being challenged. Same goes here, really.

CDfm

I have a daughter and I think that has made me grow as a person & I get less macho as I get older,

Its not something I come accross and would have no place in my world and if you and/or your daughters go to places where that behavior is acceptable then I would change my friends or the places I go.

Don't get mad & vote with your feet.

How does the song go "Respect yourself"

digme

Trog wrote: »

Just look at how many people regurgitate phrases when talking about popular topics like the recession or football. People tend not to form their own opinions based on their own views, probably because they're afraid of being challenged. Same goes here, really.

no they just never actively think.
they automatically do stuff,no thinking is required.

donfers

I don't take the thread or op seriously I'm afraid

CDfm

donfers wrote: »

I don't take the thread or op seriously I'm afraid

Last new year, I went with my partner to a burlesque night and some patrons, but not us, were in costume, as in risque theatre costume.

What made it so special,and the snow was romantic, was the sheer niceness of it all.

The performers mingled with the crowd unmolested and were scantilly dressed and a very nice Mr Fossett (whose circus tent it was) told a guy to behave like a gentleman.Just one, and that was all if unchecked that would have ruined the ambience.

These sort of threads always make me wonder why the actions of a minority are always attributed as a problem to the whole... I've seen very little sexist or abusive behavior by men in this country with a few exceptions. TBH I've seen more such behavior by women directed towards men, but they would still be a minority.

CDfm

Thats it really.

I think what it is that you get a loud mouth in a bar or a "ladette " (hates that word) and it defines the situation.

All men do not treat women badly and vice versa.

I went to a function recently and knew no-one but my partner knew everyone and I was dragged here and there by her friends and I can "faux pas" for Ireland. I was surrounded by lippy feminists :eek: (joke).

So that sort of makes me wonder why the OP does not elaborate and what sort of places him & his family are going to.

Daftendirekt

OP, I really have to wonder about the kind of people you associate with because this...

In private discussions men will blame women for everything, and the tone of dislike and derision is awful, basically referring to women being a necessary evil to keep life somewhere near comfortable, and how to get the most from women in terms of free labor?!!

...certainly isn't normal or acceptable by any civilised standards.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that it's certainly not the prevailing attitude in this country.

In fact, I would have thought that anybody who expressed sentiments such as these in public would probably be regarded as a loutish idiot.

Trog

Daftendirekt wrote: »

OP, I really have to wonder about the kind of people you associate with because this...



...certainly isn't normal or acceptable by any civilised standards.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that it's certainly not the prevailing attitude in this country.

In fact, I would have thought that anybody who expressed sentiments such as these in public would probably be regarded as a loutish idiot.

I disagree, just because there's not much explicitly offensive treatment of women, it doesn't mean the general attitude of a lot of men isn't extremely unfair. I have a pretty diverse group of friends, but a good few of them seem to have a fairly harsh attitude to women.

The extent of this is of course immeasurable really.

Trog

Trog wrote: »

I disagree, just because there's not much explicitly offensive treatment of women, it doesn't mean the general attitude of a lot of men isn't extremely unfair. I have a pretty diverse group of friends, but a good few of them seem to have a fairly harsh attitude to women.

Which would be your circle of friends... My own circle is rather open about these sort of things, and tends to be a lot more forgiving. We're all lovers of sarcasm and don't rise to obviously silly insults. But then the women are just as capable of defending themselves, if not, more so than the men..

Personally, I don't really see this harsh attitude towards women by men. Sure, there's some bile when men start ranting about how they're treated on a Saturday night, but TBH, they usually deserve it. The Irish dating scene is rather heavily geared towards S&M. And yet, my female friends will spend the evening complaining more about other women than the men they meet, usually referring in rather harsh and explicit details about the terms of the target females personal life.

Minorities speak the loudest and are the most noticeable for their "extreme" views. So, it's assumed its a general sort of thing for a particular sex. It's not. TBH, if you have an issue with it, you should either speak to your mates, or find a better circle of people to hook up with.

CDfm

I suppose it is down to agenda's and perceptions.

If you have a social scene where you have nightclubs where ladies do not have to pay admission and there is a culture of subsidised cocktails as nightclub promotion then that is the market you buy into i.e. ladette culture

I had to check if the Equality Authority had questioned night club promotion and whether gender promotion was allowed.

http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=2088776034

If people want real equality in an egalitarian way then they have to be able to give up some of their advantages too and thats not so easy.

I can imagine the male equivalent, say you had a club called Cougars and single guys between 18-23 got in for free, and girls paid, and guys got a free pint of cider for every one they bought. Then the boys would be part of the entertainment.

That would be the equivalent, now I don't go to clubs but if I did, would I meet girls who shared the bills equally or those who would prefer to economise.

That is one area.

K-9

Aren't those kind of nights to get the lads in though?

CDfm

K-9 wrote: »

Aren't those kind of nights to get the lads in though?

Yup.

But they get the women in too. So at some level women accept the culture that goes with this

irishh_bob

Trog wrote: »

I disagree, just because there's not much explicitly offensive treatment of women, it doesn't mean the general attitude of a lot of men isn't extremely unfair. I have a pretty diverse group of friends, but a good few of them seem to have a fairly harsh attitude to women.

The extent of this is of course immeasurable really.

and you dont think women ( nowadays ) have a very harsh attitude towards men , seriously , this thread has it completley backways , it is men who are ridiculed on a constant basis and that ridicule ( in the media ) is portrayted as a form of female empowerment , how strong and independant young women are is often gauged by how agressivley they interact with men , whenever you hear adds on the radio or tv involving interation between the sexes , the men are always potrayed as homer simpsons like incompetant idiots and its the women who have to step in and take charge ,also , i witness women turning on men when out at night on a regular basis where as the opposite is a real rarity

Standman

I think the sexism towards men is a different beast compared to what the women have to deal with. I come to this opinion mainly from reading what women have posted here on boards about the subject. For men there's quite a bit of sexism in the media, as said before we're often portrayed as eejits in ads and tv programs with the woman coming out on top. It doesn't bother me so much as ad's in general are f*cking stupid. And to be honest I don't think this has a huge effect on our day to day lives.

What seems to be the picture I am getting from female posters here and in various other threads is that they feel they are too often objectified by men, not just in the media and on tv but in their day to day lives. I think this is hard to understand for a man because its very rare that we feel sexually threatened by a woman.

What kind of opened my eyes to it was when on a night out a couple weeks ago I met a girl outside in the smoking area and we started chatting for a bit. She had to ask me to step in between her and another guy because he was giving her compliments like "You're really beautiful" and whatever else. I used to wonder why women complained about things like this, after all it's a compliment, I'd be delighted if a woman came up and said that to me! But looking at this drunken fella outside a bar, it was obvious he wasn't simply giving a nice compliment. The sexual overtones were plain to see, he was basically leering at her. After a few incidents like this I'm not so surprised many women have a negative view of the young Irish male. It just saddens/annoys me that I have to be put in the same category until proven otherwise.

From my experience I think a lot of this is a result of young Irish men and women not having enough experience being around each other. In one groups of friends I have, the guys spend 90% of their free time around other guys. The only experience they have with women outside of work are when they are drunk on nights out or at parties. When it's just time to hang out and talk about stuff theres no women in sight, and it's the same on the womens side as well. It's like when you're a kid and the boys stand on one side of disco girls on the other, maybe get the shift with a girl, then go back and tell your mates about it. Seems to me for a large proportion of young people the situation hasn't changed much. This type of behaviour serves as breeding ground for sexist attitudes imo.

Standman

Standman wrote: »

What seems to be the picture I am getting from female posters here and in various other threads is that they feel they are too often objectified by men, not just in the media and on tv but in their day to day lives. I think this is hard to understand for a man because its very rare that we feel sexually threatened by a woman.

There is a huge difference between being objectified and feeling sexually threatened. I've felt both as a man in Thailand. Humans objectify... its rather simple. Both men and women are objectified every day. In the media, in our shopping, in the jokes we make to one another etc. We all do it to some degree.

What kind of opened my eyes to it was when on a night out a couple weeks ago I met a girl outside in the smoking area and we started chatting for a bit. </snip>

After a few incidents like this I'm not so surprised many women have a negative view of the young Irish male. It just saddens/annoys me that I have to be put in the same category until proven otherwise.

I've lived quite a few of the last few years in Asia, and the thing you learn as a man is that the multitude of compliments you receive (nice as they are) on a daily basis are as a result of some form of agenda. Whether its sex, money, English lessons, gain reputation, marriage etc. you learn that women can and will treat men as bargaining chips for various reasons. Some harmless and some quite vindictive.

Now there may be some who will shrug this off and say its not Ireland. But it is. Since I returned I have seen such "using" by Irish women, that I have to guess I had to leave Ireland to really see it. Between free drinks, designated drivers, social props, or just plain sex, the distinction between men and women has shifted dramatically. Before I left it was the guys always looking to get drunk and have sex. Now, it appears that there is a growing culture where women feel the need to do the same. The belief that equality ensures them that right.

Nothing particularly wrong with it, if you're into that sort of thing. However personally I keep my going out to a minimum because of such an environment in Ireland.

From my experience I think a lot of this is a result of young Irish men and women not having enough experience being around each other. In one groups of friends I have, the guys spend 90% of their free time around other guys. The only experience they have with women outside of work are when they are drunk on nights out or at parties. When it's just time to hang out and talk about stuff theres no women in sight, and it's the same on the womens side as well. It's like when you're a kid and the boys stand on one side of disco girls on the other, maybe get the shift with a girl, then go back and tell your mates about it. Seems to me for a large proportion of young people the situation hasn't changed much. This type of behaviour serves as breeding ground for sexist attitudes imo.

Honestly, I believe its more than that. My parents had way less experience with the opposite sex than I did by the age they got married. That would likely account for most parents born 50-60 years ago. So, its not as if people nowadays have less contact than those gone before, and that sexism has increased dramatically due to such behavior.

For me, Its the actions of this new "breed" of men and women who seem to push everything to extreme's. Perhaps its just a sign that I'm getting old (33 is rather ancient ), but there's almost a sense of desperation to the pub and club scene here. And its shared by both sides. The differences in the sexes have changed. Women are getting wasted as much as men and frankly, making as much of an ass of themselves. There is the belief that women should behave the same as guys, and yet, be treated as women. And I feel that some men take exception to that kind of behavior, and respond with the sexist attitude. But lets face it, its not as if they're on their own. There are quite a few Irish females out there just as sexist to both men and women.

I think the true issue with sexism is the shift to equality. Before it was easy to tell if a man was being sexist. Now that women have equality, they're trying to "enjoy" the same "benefits" as men, but don't have any real identity as to what it is to be a woman. All the old concepts of femininity belong to a previous age where women didn't get drunk, do drugs, pick fights, and bait their boyfriends for the fun of it. And so when women seek to live an equal life, they run into the equality that men have shared with each other. An equality which is tested every day by each other.

prinz

Daftendirekt wrote: »

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that it's certainly not the prevailing attitude in this country. In fact, I would have thought that anybody who expressed sentiments such as these in public would probably be regarded as a loutish idiot.

+1. Sounds extremely odd that such comments would be passed in a serious malignant way. A bit of banter is one thing but that crosses a line.

Deleted User wrote: »

Honestly, I believe its more than that. My parents had way less experience with the opposite sex than I did by the age they got married. That would likely account for most parents born 50-60 years ago. So, its not as if people nowadays have less contact than those gone before, and that sexism has increased dramatically due to such behavior.

+1. Personally I would see the opposite effect too, more sexism amongst the younger generation. I would argue that there was greater respect for the different roles in the years before.

Deleted User wrote: »

For me, Its the actions of this new "breed" of men and women who seem to push everything to extreme's. Perhaps its just a sign that I'm getting old (33 is rather ancient ), but there's almost a sense of desperation to the pub and club scene here. And its shared by both sides. The differences in the sexes have changed. Women are getting wasted as much as men and frankly, making as much of an ass of themselves. There is the belief that women should behave the same as guys, and yet, be treated as women. And I feel that some men take exception to that kind of behavior, and respond with the sexist attitude. But lets face it, its not as if they're on their own. There are quite a few Irish females out there just as sexist to both men and women.

I think the true issue with sexism is the shift to equality. Before it was easy to tell if a man was being sexist. Now that women have equality, they're trying to "enjoy" the same "benefits" as men, but don't have any real identity as to what it is to be a woman. All the old concepts of femininity belong to a previous age where women didn't get drunk, do drugs, pick fights, and bait their boyfriends for the fun of it. And so when women seek to live an equal life, they run into the equality that men have shared with each other. An equality which is tested every day by each other.

Couldn't agree more.

Nail and head. There is a difference between the sexes. People need to just accept that fact. Neither one is better or worse than the other, but the difference persists. Yet we have a culture which tries to smooth out that difference instead of encouraging it, and tbh IMO it's having the opposite to the desired outcome. Plus as someone mentioned earlier my OH has been the subject to quite a few what could be termed sexist remarks.. the majority of which come from other women.

CDfm

Sometimes I think guys are not comfortable around women. I am comfortable talking to homosexuals, transexuals, and transgender people as I am very comfortable about my sexuality and I am heterosexual.

So maybe it is "comfort" /"uncomfort" thing that makes it happen.

Some part is banter like the peacock showing his feathers as in a mating ritual.A girl in a skelt will get a particular reaction. I admit I will gawk but that is a natural response but I wont whistle etc cause its not my thing.

Thats my social analysis.

The other thing that I think is odd is that some feminists are positively puritan and nunlike in their attitudes. So no-one knows who is offended and why.

metrovelvet

Standman wrote: »

I think the sexism towards men is a different beast compared to what the women have to deal with. I come to this opinion mainly from reading what women have posted here on boards about the subject. For men there's quite a bit of sexism in the media, as said before we're often portrayed as eejits in ads and tv programs with the woman coming out on top. It doesn't bother me so much as ad's in general are f*cking stupid. And to be honest I don't think this has a huge effect on our day to day lives.

What seems to be the picture I am getting from female posters here and in various other threads is that they feel they are too often objectified by men, not just in the media and on tv but in their day to day lives. I think this is hard to understand for a man because its very rare that we feel sexually threatened by a woman.

What kind of opened my eyes to it was when on a night out a couple weeks ago I met a girl outside in the smoking area and we started chatting for a bit. She had to ask me to step in between her and another guy because he was giving her compliments like "You're really beautiful" and whatever else. I used to wonder why women complained about things like this, after all it's a compliment, I'd be delighted if a woman came up and said that to me! But looking at this drunken fella outside a bar, it was obvious he wasn't simply giving a nice compliment. The sexual overtones were plain to see, he was basically leering at her. After a few incidents like this I'm not so surprised many women have a negative view of the young Irish male. It just saddens/annoys me that I have to be put in the same category until proven otherwise.

From my experience I think a lot of this is a result of young Irish men and women not having enough experience being around each other. In one groups of friends I have, the guys spend 90% of their free time around other guys. The only experience they have with women outside of work are when they are drunk on nights out or at parties. When it's just time to hang out and talk about stuff theres no women in sight, and it's the same on the womens side as well. It's like when you're a kid and the boys stand on one side of disco girls on the other, maybe get the shift with a girl, then go back and tell your mates about it. Seems to me for a large proportion of young people the situation hasn't changed much. This type of behaviour serves as breeding ground for sexist attitudes imo.

I agree about school segregation not helping things. However, I have a co-ed education behind me. Part of that is also having the experience of trying to work out an algebra problem during an exam and having my bra unhooked by the boy behind me, having a whole year of comments about my 'rack' by several buffoons, and I could go on and on here and so could many others. Gym class was particulalry annoying as you heard comments about breasts bouncing up and down along with things like 'i'd like a piece of that' or 'id like to get into that'. Luckily for me, I was part of a generations where the sexual peer pressure came much later and not at 13 like it does now for girls in the US.

TBH I can understand why parents would send their girls to single sex schools but at the same time my parents would have thought that sexism is a part of life and men will be part of your life so you will have to learn to deal with it, negotiate it and work with it and compete with it. While this is true, it was a naive perspective because they only knew of half the stuff that went on.

The problem is as I see it is girls are raised to be polite and not to be aggressive and to talk back and be able to retaliate without looking like a bitch and be able to give them a thump for it and say 'get back in the barnyard.'

metrovelvet

metrovelvet wrote: »

I agree about school segregation not helping things. However, I have a co-ed education behind me. Part of that is also having the experience of trying to work out an algebra problem during an exam and having my bra unhooked by the boy behind me, having a whole year of comments about my 'rack' by several buffoons, and I could go on and on here and so could many others. Gym class was particulalry annoying as you heard comments about breasts bouncing up and down along with things like 'i'd like a piece of that' or 'id like to get into that'. Luckily for me, I was part of a generations where the sexual peer pressure came much later and not at 13 like it does now for girls in the US.

I also went to a co-ed education, and I can still remember the attitudes of the girls in my school towards the guys. There were many who were as free with their opinions about men, weren't shy about ripping the shy guys to bits for social approval, and such. Its not as if boys hold the sole propriety on lewd comments... especially nowadays. When I walk past schools now, I often hear comments from girls asking if I'd be their sugar daddy or other similar nonsense.

TBH I can understand why parents would send their girls to single sex schools but at the same time my parents would have thought that sexism is a part of life and men will be part of your life so you will have to learn to deal with it, negotiate it and work with it and compete with it. While this is true, it was a naive perspective because they only knew of half the stuff that went on.

They might not have known everything that went on, but they were hardly naive since their idea still held true. Going to a co-ed school did prepare you to deal with those assholes in the world that treat women like objects.

The problem is as I see it is girls are raised to be polite and not to be aggressive and to talk back and be able to retaliate without looking like a bitch and be able to give them a thump for it and say 'get back in the barnyard.'

Which is a rather old-fashioned viewpoint unless you went to school 50 years ago... Modern girls, and hell, girls I went to school with 20 years ago were anything but polite, and unable to retaliate.. I think you might want to widen your social circle a wee bit, but Irish women are probably the most capable women I have ever met internationally who are able to take what men dish out and send it all back to them. Also quite a few of them are very open to resorting the physical attacks when it suits them.

Spend some time in Asia and you will see girls raised to be polite, demure, and accepting of anything a man throws at them. There's a million miles of difference between Irish women/girls and that.

Emme

Deleted User wrote: »

I think you might want to widen your social circle a wee bit, but Irish women are probably the most capable women I have ever met internationally who are able to take what men dish out and send it all back to them.

I agree with that, but I would say that Irish women have to be strong, there's no tradition of chivalry in this country or of men defending women per se. Our ancestors worked on the land side by side putting in an equal amount of effort and the women actually worked harder because they managed the household as well. So it's no wonder that Irish women are capable. Irish women are strong, we're known for it.

Deleted User wrote: »

Also quite a few of them are very open to resorting the physical attacks when it suits them.

That is not acceptable in any culture and is not representative of Irish women.

Deleted User wrote: »

Spend some time in Asia and you will see girls raised to be polite, demure, and accepting of anything a man throws at them.

They're polite on the surface, but some of them are very strong underneath and once you're hooked you soon learn who's boss and it isn't necessarily who you thought it might be! If they're demure they're that way because there's a payoff - ie something in it for them.

Deleted User wrote: »

There's a million miles of difference between Irish women/girls and that.

Irish women are more upfront but I think the younger generation of Irish women are starting to learn from their Asian sisters.

Emme

Emme wrote: »

I agree with that, but I would say that Irish women have to be strong, there's no tradition of chivalry in this country or of men defending women per se. Our ancestors worked on the land side by side putting in an equal amount of effort and the women actually worked harder because they managed the household as well. So it's no wonder that Irish women are capable. Irish women are strong, we're known for it.

no tradition of chivalry in this country or of men defending women per se? Seriously? I think you're wrong there considering the way that most men will step off a footpath to allow women go by, or is that just because the women are just as likely to barge through them? Probably both. TBH though I have seen plenty in the way of politeness towards women by men, which men would not extend to other men.

That is not acceptable in any culture and is not representative of Irish women.

Depends on what fast food joint or nightclub you're outside on a Saturday night... and it is indeed representative of a portion of Irish women. Not all mind. But it was a regular sight on nights out in three separate towns I have lived in Ireland.

They're polite on the surface, but some of them are very strong underneath and once you're hooked you soon learn who's boss and it isn't necessarily who you thought it might be! If they're demure they're that way because there's a payoff - ie something in it for them.

Of course there is a payoff. They're "protected" by their male partners. Which is why there is such an emphasis on women staying "girly" well into their thirties. Believe me, I know, having lived in China and Thailand, and have dated quite a bit in both.

Irish women are more upfront but I think the younger generation of Irish women are starting to learn from their Asian sisters.

More like the other way around imo.

Feeona

Standman wrote: »

I think the sexism towards men is a different beast compared to what the women have to deal with.

I totally agree. I often see threads saying 'If it was the other way around, it wouldn''t be seen as harrassment' etc. I really don't think that the two sexes can be compared, like with like, when it comes to harrassment in pubs, work etc.
The reason I say this is because I learned the way men view women when my breasts started growing. I learned the physical power of men when my breasts started growing. I learned these things from an elderly male relative, and from some men who weren't at all related. They weren't hormonal teenagers, or randy twenty somethings, but fully fledged men who should've known better than to try out their recently discovered sexual prowess/confidence on a teenager.
It doesn't happen to me now fortunately, because I know not to leave myself in a vulnerable position, and I can spot predators like that from a mile off. Added to that, I'm not as prized now because I'm not a young unsullied female (a state of being which seems to be equally prized by both sexes).
I'm sure I'm not the only female who had these kinds of experiences when I first started to turn into a woman. From talking to other women, my experiences were quite tame. I also realised that it's something a lot of women just took/take in their stride. It's a part of growing up for a lot of women.

But it's always at the back of your memory. I rarely hear men talking about older women coming onto them when they first started developing, or physically over-powering them. And if they do, it's usually seen as a badge of honour (MILF etc) rather than something to be ashamed of.

Zulu

Feeona wrote: »

...I rarely hear men talking about older women coming onto them when they first started developing, or physically over-powering them. And if they do, it's usually seen as a badge of honour (MILF etc) rather than something to be ashamed of.

And right there is where you find the sexism.
Generally speaking it's difficult for abuse victims to speak out. It's particularly difficult for men to speak out, because there is an expectation that they should be protectors; if they can't protect themselves, they've failed society.
You, in one statement, have dismissed male victims of abuse, and compounded the difficulty of victims to speak up. It mightn't have been your intention - in fact I'm fairly sure it isn't - but re-read your comment & re-read it again from the prospective of a man who was abused as a boy.

To be honest, the whole "woe-is-me" line taken by western women gets tiring.

Feeona

Zulu wrote: »

And right there is where you find the sexism.
Generally speaking it's difficult for abuse victims to speak out. It's particularly difficult for men to speak out, because there is an expectation that they should be protectors; if they can't protect themselves, they've failed society.
You, in one statement, have dismissed male victims of abuse, and compounded the difficulty of victims to speak up. It mightn't have been your intention - in fact I'm fairly sure it isn't - but re-read your comment & re-read it again from the prospective of a man who was abused as a boy.

To be honest, the whole "woe-is-me" line taken by western women gets tiring.

Unfortunately, your fear and worry for abuse victims not being able to speak up has been shown to be a sham by the last line in your post.

CDfm

Feeona wrote: »

Unfortunately, your fear and worry for abuse victims not being able to speak up has been shown to be a sham by the last line in your post.

I think you are being a tad harsh on Zulu here.

I do not think any gender has a monopoly on being victims of abuse but yet abuse is portrayed by many womens groups as a yong female heterosexual mother as victim to the exclusion of others. I have a good friend a lesbian who was abused as a girl by a female teacher.

Dealing in stereotypes is always dangerous

Originally Posted by Feeona
...I rarely hear men talking about older women coming onto them when they first started developing, or physically over-powering them. And if they do, it's usually seen as a badge of honour (MILF etc) rather than something to be ashamed of.

Take the issues Esther Rantzen highlights in the increases in mother (or carer) -on -son sexual abuse reporting.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1228366/I-abused-woman-haunts-day.html

As a father of a son & daughter I would not have distinguished between them and would be cognisant that if something had happened to my son that he would have been less likely to come forward either to me or their mother without someone saying "well a woman wouldnt do that".

Children should have an expectation that if they are abused they wont be discriminated against along gender lines either because of their gender or the gender of their abuser.

I am not saying that you would do , but can you see where I am coming from that because of the stereotyping of abuse makes it more difficult on the victim. When I was growing up there were no MILF's as such (well my friend Dons mother maybe but she was still a Mom).

Feeona

Feeona wrote: »

Unfortunately, your fear and worry for abuse victims not being able to speak up has been shown to be a sham by the last line in your post.

And you're missing the point. That there are different "rules" concerning what is acceptable for women versus those of men. Just as there are different reactions to similar actions. Consider the reactions of Gardai to claims of spousal abuse towards men over the last few decades. It does happen. And yet, such claims by men have often been dismissed as ridiculous. What kind of man gets beaten up by a woman? :rolleyes:

The only difference is that women find a receptive audience to their negative experiences. Men find it more difficult to get any sympathy or even belief.

Zulu

Feeona wrote: »

Unfortunately, your fear and worry for abuse victims not being able to speak up has been shown to be a sham by the last line in your post.

Kudos, you missed my point entirely.

It occurred to me last night, that I owe "western women" an apology. To western women: I am sincerly and utterly sorry. I should have been more carefully with my language.

It should be noted that when I posted "western women", I should have mentioned "a minority group of western women" as clearly the vast majority of women, in the western world, are in fact cognisant that sexism impacts both genders.
And that a vast majority of women have no interest in pitiful point counting in an attempt to portray their plight as worst, when it comes to a serious topic that affects everyone.
Thankfully.

So again, an open and honest apology.

CDfm

The gender card is a biggie. Egalitarian principles should apply.

I went thru the family law courts during my divorce , and, as a guy it was horrible.

As a new years resolution this year I stopped participating on threads on mens rights as it just upsets me.

Ectoplasm

Zulu wrote: »

And right there is where you find the sexism.
Generally speaking it's difficult for abuse victims to speak out. It's particularly difficult for men to speak out, because there is an expectation that they should be protectors; if they can't protect themselves, they've failed society.
You, in one statement, have dismissed male victims of abuse, and compounded the difficulty of victims to speak up. It mightn't have been your intention - in fact I'm fairly sure it isn't - but re-read your comment & re-read it again from the prospective of a man who was abused as a boy.

I'm fairly sure Feeona wasn't intending to be sexist with the reaction that young men get although I see your point, that it is in fact sexist. I personally think it's terrible that young men who are victims of abuse don't or feel they can't speak out and that when they do it is seen as somehow less serious.

Here is where I open the can of worms though. Is it as common for young boys to be leered at and leched over from the age of 10/11/12 onwards? I'm genuinely curious here and I'm not trying to go down the road of 'oh but it's worse for women' at all, but I know from the time I grew breasts, I was subject to a LOT of unwanted attention because of it and I know I'm not alone in this.

I wonder if it is because girls look like women from a younger age than boys look like men? By that I mean that a girls body changes in a much more obviously sexual way than a boys does. Some girls in their early teens look much older than they actually are and as a result, draw more attention. I'm not excusing it but I think that as some men see it as acceptable to leer and lech at women, that young girls can get caught up in this.

Hmmm pretty sure I'm explaining myself badly here. I guess what I'm wondering is that while it is 'easier' (terrible word I know) for girls to be taken seriously as a victim is it also 'easier' for them to become the victim? Like I said, I'm not saying women have it worse - in some ways I think the reverse is true in this case as a young woman is more likely to be taken seriously and doesn't have the additional stress that a young man may have.

While reading this I was remembering my own childhood and teens, and I had a very different experience. I suppose the leering or such isn't common of women towards growing boys, I certainly never experienced any of it myself. Nor can I remember any such comments from friends or family during that period.

But I can remember a different sort of attention during that time from both males and females of various gangs/groups. Physical attacks. From the age of 7 until I left secondary school at 17, i received regular attacks by people. Not just bullying but attacks to do actual harm. And they succeeded on multiple occasions. And I wasn't alone in getting this sort of treatment. I knew quite a few boys who received such attention, and had to suffer through it. Nobody went to parents or authorities simply because the school authorities or the Gardai could only make it worse.. Inadequate fools. Although I suppose now, as an adult, I should recognize the limitations of the law.

Why am I pointing out any of this? Its a parallel example. EMF2010 has spoken about girls being leered at while growing up, and that its less likely that boys will receive that. I even agree (considering my own experiences)... But my experience of being bullied to such a physical extent is a very common experience for boys growing up. Less common for girls. Sure, it does happen.. but its similar to the sexual/leering aspect. The numbers appear to be vastly different.

The thing is that we grow up and we move on with our lives. Was it painful? yes. Do I still suffer nightmares? Yup, sure do. Do I let it run my life? Nope. Personally, I believe such regular experiences are easily on par with being leered at throughout your life.. but I guess there's an element of ignorance there.

CDfm

I live in Dublin and there are plenty of places I wouldn't go in the daytime or buses I wouldnt get on wearing a suit.

I would get mugged for being well dressed. So what are my options -change of clothes or take the car.

Of course, I know that its only a small sector of society engage in this. I wonder what the stats are.- I wonder if its the same anti-social elements that are being talked about when sexism is discussed.

Its a different type of violence , are there statistics out there on male victims and female victims of violent crimes.

Ectoplasm

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a parallel example. EMF2010 has spoken about girls being leered at while growing up, and that its less likely that boys will receive that. I even agree (considering my own experiences)... But my experience of being bullied to such a physical extent is a very common experience for boys growing up. Less common for girls. Sure, it does happen.. but its similar to the sexual/leering aspect. The numbers appear to be vastly different.

Personally, I believe such regular experiences are easily on par with being leered at throughout your life.. but I guess there's an element of ignorance there.

That's an interesting point. Young girls have to put up with shall we say, sexual intimidation and young boys with physical intimidation. IFrom my experience, the leering was so common amongst my friends, it became part of the background noise - you learn to deal with it quickly and in my case, and most of my friends' cases, ignoring it was the way. It's much harder to ignore physical violence though. In some ways though, our society sees both these things as acceptable - or at least not totally out of the ordinary - and that is sad.

CDfm wrote: »

Of course, I know that its only a small sector of society engage in this. I wonder what the stats are.- I wonder if its the same anti-social elements that are being talked about when sexism is discussed.

I imagine you are absolutely right about it being the same anti-social elements being discussed. I've only ever met one guy who was a totally blatant male chauvinist - most people hide their prejudices more. This guy was sexist, racist, homophobic....the list went on. I think if you allow yourself to hate/dislike/look down on one group for an arbitrary reason, it's easier to do it to another group.

EMF2010

EMF2010 wrote: »

That's an interesting point. Young girls have to put up with shall we say, sexual intimidation and young boys with physical intimidation. IFrom my experience, the leering was so common amongst my friends, it became part of the background noise - you learn to deal with it quickly and in my case, and most of my friends' cases, ignoring it was the way. It's much harder to ignore physical violence though. In some ways though, our society sees both these things as acceptable - or at least not totally out of the ordinary - and that is sad.

I don't think its seen as acceptable but rather that its unavoidable or that it can't be prevented. Sure, some limitations can be put in place (which we have) to reduce the numbers of such cases, but to prevent it completely? Not going to happen.

Feeona

EMF2010 wrote: »

That's an interesting point. Young girls have to put up with shall we say, sexual intimidation and young boys with physical intimidation. IFrom my experience, the leering was so common amongst my friends, it became part of the background noise - you learn to deal with it quickly and in my case, and most of my friends' cases, ignoring it was the way. It's much harder to ignore physical violence though. In some ways though, our society sees both these things as acceptable - or at least not totally out of the ordinary - and that is sad.

This is what I was getting at with my post. For most women there is an unspoken rite of passage they must undertake. I spoke of my own experience because that's all I can draw from. I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to start explaining the rites of passage men go through. Unfortunately it was twisted to make it look like I don't believe men are abused :rolleyes:

I do believe there are unspoken rites of passage for both men and women. And I do believe these rites lend themselves to the differences between men and women.

Zulu

Feeona wrote: »

Unfortunately it was twisted to make it look like I don't believe men are abused :rolleyes:

Apologies Feeona but I'm not a mind reader - people can only comment on what you actually post. Perhaps that sould be considered in future?

If you've a problem with how yours posts were represented - report it.

Feeona

Feeona wrote: »

This is what I was getting at with my post. For most women there is an unspoken rite of passage they must undertake. I spoke of my own experience because that's all I can draw from. I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to start explaining the rites of passage men go through. Unfortunately it was twisted to make it look like I don't believe men are abused :rolleyes:

Nothing you said was twisted. You spoke with a singular view of things. Fine. No problem there. The problem was the manner of how you described it. As Zulu has said, we're not mind-readers. We can only judge what is written.

metrovelvet

When I was in school there was an awful lot of sexual harrassment and what you might call today sexual assault in late primary and even into high school. It was not uncommon to be tackled against your will and have your breasts grabbed. The boys thought it was funny. I remember one boy walking behind a girl with a hanger and using the hook to lift up the back of her skirt without her noticing. I remember a girl sitting on a sofa in our lounge in high school reading her history book and a classmate pulled his dick out of his pants and started waving it over her head without her noticing but others saw. They thought it was funny. I could go on and on with stories like these.

Nowadays we have become aware of that and become cuckoo in the other direction where 7 year olds get expelled for sex harrassment because they gave a girl a kiss.:rolleyes:

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/AsSeenOnGMA/story?id=4585388

CDfm

Feeona wrote: »

This is what I was getting at with my post. For most women there is an unspoken rite of passage they must undertake. I spoke of my own experience because that's all I can draw from. I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to start explaining the rites of passage men go through.

I do believe there are unspoken rites of passage for both men and women. And I do believe these rites lend themselves to the differences between men and women.

I think some rites of passage are bullying under another name,whereas, a young lad trying to be cool in front of the ladies maybe doing a "courtship" ritual.

Its about being life confident too-which a lot of young lads are not.

A few years back I read a newspaper story about a young guy hazed in a garage who had horrible injuries from a hose put up his backside and turned on. There was a court case.

Unfortunately it was twisted to make it look like I don't believe men are abused :rolleyes

:

It didn't come accross like you were to me.

Ectoplasm

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think its seen as acceptable but rather that its unavoidable or that it can't be prevented. Sure, some limitations can be put in place (which we have) to reduce the numbers of such cases, but to prevent it completely? Not going to happen.

Yep...to say it is seen as unavoidable is a better way of putting it.

Here is where my shiny eyed optimism comes into play though - I actually believe we should be trying to prevent it completely. I think you get further by aiming very high.

Metrovelvet mentioned that we have

become cuckoo in the other direction where 7 year olds get expelled for sex harrassment because they gave a girl a kiss

This is insane, but I don't think that schools are the place to tackle a lot of this. I really think it is important for parents to address these issues with their kids in a 'what to do if this happens' kind of way. I don't have kids myself but I do have nieces and nephews and I look at one of my brothers in particular. He has always been preemptive in this way and also discusses with his boys what to do after various things happen. I'm in awe really, because he has two happy, socially copped on boys who know they can speak to their father about ANYTHING.

My point isn't to gush over this though - it's that knowledge is power and knowing how to deal with commonly arising situations is important. I think all too often, that because a parent has been through something themselves growing up that they actually do see it as 'normal' and kind of dismiss it. I'm not going down the 'blame the parents' road here, just saying that starting at home is the ideal.

EMF2010

EMF2010 wrote: »

Metrovelvet mentioned that we have This is insane, but I don't think that schools are the place to tackle a lot of this. I really think it is important for parents to address these issues with their kids in a 'what to do if this happens' kind of way. I don't have kids myself but I do have nieces and nephews and I look at one of my brothers in particular. He has always been preemptive in this way and also discusses with his boys what to do after various things happen. I'm in awe really, because he has two happy, socially copped on boys who know they can speak to their father about ANYTHING.

And yet it has to be tackled in the schools, because children (for the most part) spend most of their time during the day there. And while I can understand and appreciate what you say about good parenting, there are still quite a number of parents out there you cannot or will not display the necessary skills/intention to reign their kids in. When I was walking home last night, at 2 in the morning, I met a group of kids all in their teens messing around near my estate. Good parenting would suggest that these kids should have been in bed, but the fact is that this kind of behavior is becoming more commonplace.

TBH I do see the schools as being the perfect place for true learning to be done. Unfortunately, the teachers are neither skilled/trained enough to act as counselors, nor to impart true life lessons. I, like you, are a bit of an optimist, although I have to be honest that my optimism has been waning of late regarding the actions of teens in my medium sized town in Ireland.

My point isn't to gush over this though - it's that knowledge is power and knowing how to deal with commonly arising situations is important. I think all too often, that because a parent has been through something themselves growing up that they actually do see it as 'normal' and kind of dismiss it. I'm not going down the 'blame the parents' road here, just saying that starting at home is the ideal.

And I would wholeheartedly agree with you... if parents had the time or the patience to do it any more. Most parents I know are working either one job with long hours, or two jobs simultaneously to cover the costs involved with being parents (and the mortgages). They don't have the time or the energy to spend much time with their kids. Even the weekends have been taken over by the work that could not be done during the week. Its not even that they're working hard to become management or such, but rather just to keep their jobs.

Some parents have the time & energy to do this kind of teaching for their children. That's truly great. I sincerely wish they all did. Our communities would be far safer, and just as important, its likely children would grow up in a much better environment. But it really needs to be tackled both in school and in the home. But as with everything, the realities of life will interfere.