Volume versus intensity

sesna

Was just wondering what the difference is between doing say 8 sets of 10 reps at maybe 70% of maximum weight, versus doing low reps and just a few sets but high weights. And then also what the effect of doing supersets, or using low rest times between exercises which I find is exhausting on the muscle and results in failure of reps.

Do these different approaches have different outcome on hypertrophy of muscle and muscle fibre, work capacity and strength or is it just simply a case of mixing programmes up so your body does not become too used to any one type of exercise.

Thanks.

Transform

the basic principle of weight training is progressive resistance of 'put more weight on the flippin' bar', how you go about doing that and making progressivre gains is up for debate and finding what works best for you but as a general guide make sure that you are doing all the compound lifts if you can (poor mobility in certain joints might limit you) - squats, deadlifts, pull ups/chin ups, overhead press, etc

throwing in some super sets or high reps in your training from time to time is fine but not a good idea if thats what you are doing on every exercise and in every session - it just turns into a pump fest where you are then focusing less on getting stronger.

on a final point 8sets of 10reps would possibly kill most people if done with anything near a proper 70% weight. 3-4sets of 10reps would be fine. Vary the rep ranges from time to time and just keep in mind that getting stronger on the compound lifts is the key for most people

Barry.Oglesby

sesna wrote: »

Was just wondering what the difference is between doing say 8 sets of 10 reps at maybe 70% of maximum weight, versus doing low reps and just a few sets but high weights. And then also what the effect of doing supersets, or using low rest times between exercises which I find is exhausting on the muscle and results in failure of reps.

Do these different approaches have different outcome on hypertrophy of muscle and muscle fibre, work capacity and strength or is it just simply a case of mixing programmes up so your body does not become too used to any one type of exercise.

Thanks.

The age old answer to this is "it depends". Different things work for different people and the really funny thing is that they all work. Even funnier is that when you get down to it, there are different methods of training within those methods. Even if two guys are doing volume training, same sets reps and so on, they can actually be doing two entirely different things.

It really is very funny.

denvey

short answer is volume = size. so if u do 8 sets of 60% 1rm etc u will look bigger but wont be as strong as the guy who lifts 5 sets or 5 reps of say 80% of his 1rm.

itsallaboutheL

denvey wrote: »

short answer is volume = size. so if u do 8 sets of 60% 1rm etc u will look bigger but wont be as strong as the guy who lifts 5 sets or 5 reps of say 80% of his 1rm.

Prove it.

Transform

denvey wrote: »

short answer is volume = size. so if u do 8 sets of 60% 1rm etc u will look bigger but wont be as strong as the guy who lifts 5 sets or 5 reps of say 80% of his 1rm.

computer says no!

I got some of my best strength gains from 20rep squats. Overall intensity at any rep range is key

Barry.Oglesby

denvey wrote: »

short answer is volume = size. so if u do 8 sets of 60% 1rm etc u will look bigger but wont be as strong as the guy who lifts 5 sets or 5 reps of say 80% of his 1rm.

This is exactly what I was talking about above. Not always the case.

dave80

Transform wrote: »

computer says no!

I got some of my best strength gains from 20rep squats. Overall intensity at any rep range is key

20 reps squats are basically a rest pause set wit ur 10 rep max?

d'Oracle

Here is me thinking 20 rep squats were just squatting something for 20 reps....

Will Heffernan

d'Oracle wrote: »

Here is me thinking 20 rep squats were just squatting something for 20 reps....

That's not the biggest problem.

People need to be more specific about what they mean by strength. I highly doubt that anyone has actually improved their 'strength' from 20 rep squats.

Their strength endurance? Yes. Their maximal strength? I doubt it.

brianthebard

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Their strength endurance? Yes. Their maximal strength? I doubt it.

I have.

Will Heffernan

brianthebard wrote: »

I have.

No you didn't. You just think you did because you don't have the frame of reference to actually understand what happened.

brianthebard

Will Heffernan wrote: »

No you didn't. You just think you did because you don't have the frame of reference to actually understand what happened.

What frame of reference do you have? No need to be rude when you don't know the first thing about my training at the time in question.

Will Heffernan

brianthebard wrote: »

What frame of reference do you have?

Too many years of academia on a couple of different continents and over 20 years of coaching experience from club to Olympic/World Championship level.

No need to be rude when you don't know the first thing about my training at the time in question.

Why is it automatically assumed that I am being rude every time I tell someone that they are wrong? Perhaps I should submit all posts to moderators and have them break it to posters gently so they don't get upset.

I am not sure how I can break it to you any easier than I did... neither yours nor Transform's or anyone else here's maximal strength improved as a result of 20rep sets. I'm sorry about that but it's true.

If you want to kick off one of those 20 page threads where everyone tells me I'm wrong over and over again before where we get to the end and everyone realises that I was correct in the first place and you can hear all the online crickets chirping go ahead.

I am well versed in all the literature in this area and am only too happy to have this discussion as time allows.

So once again. I am not being rude. I'm not trying to be a smart ass. I'm just stating my opinion and am quite happy to back it up.

brianthebard

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Why is it automatically assumed that I am being rude every time I tell someone that they are wrong? Perhaps I should submit all posts to moderators and have them break it to posters gently so they don't get upset.

I am not sure how I can break it to you any easier than I did... neither yours nor Transform's or anyone else here's maximal strength improved as a result of 20rep sets. I'm sorry about that but it's true.

[...]

So once again. I am not being rude. I'm not trying to be a smart ass. I'm just stating my opinion and am quite happy to back it up.

So why don't you tell me what I was doing in my training to increase my max squat if it wasn't the 20 rep squats?

Will Heffernan

Actually I take it all back. You can feel free to delete all my posts in this thread and you can all go back about your business in peace.

You are right and I am wrong.

g'em

Brian Will wasn't being rude, he was being factual.

Will stop throwing a strop.

I'm genuinely interested to know why it is that people do see an increase in their maximal strength after they do 20 rep sets for a period of time. I don't believe that the 20 rep system is directly increasing their maximal strength but I don't have an answer for what it is doing and yet you hear of a lot of people reporting its benefits. So, what's behind it?

brianthebard

I can't delete your posts since I'm not a fitness mod. I'd still like to know what you think increased my max squat if it wasn't the 20 rep sets. Its clear you have an intimate knowledge of my training history or you wouldn't have made such absolutist claims, so I would be interested to know what it was that made the increase.

Sangre

Didn't kevpants reported decent gains doing 20 squats and GOMAD?

brianthebard

Sangre wrote: »

Didn't kevpants reported decent gains doing 20 squats and GOMAD?

Yes but I think he was doing 20 reps along with a max effort day so his gains can't be completely attributed to 20 rep squats if that was the case.

Edwardius

What sort of population are you talking about here? If I spent a year at them and ended up doing 20 reps with my previous 5rm I'd be stronger right? Does this just apply to regular joes or novice/intermediates where anything would work?

Or do 20s build some sort of base where you can build upon? Or are they just extra volume in disguise?

This is one of those context things isn't it?

Will Heffernan

g'em wrote: »

Brian Will wasn't being rude, he was being factual.

You know me...I'm Mr Congeniality.

Will stop throwing a strop.

Not throwing a strop G'em. This is just the usual thing...it'll be the same as always...won't gain me any friends and makes me new enemies because people don't want to be shown to be wrong...ignorance is bliss as they say.

I'm genuinely interested to know why it is that people do see an increase in their maximal strength after they do 20 rep sets for a period of time.

Because they can't connect the cause and effect...as I said...some trainees and trainers don't have the frame of reference to understand what they are actually seeing.

I don't believe that the 20 rep system is directly increasing their maximal strength but I don't have an answer for what it is doing and yet you hear of a lot of people reporting its benefits. So, what's behind it?

It's like saying that running and dieting is the best way to improve pull ups strength.

Will Heffernan

brianthebard wrote: »

I can't delete your posts since I'm not a fitness mod. I'd still like to know what you think increased my max squat if it wasn't the 20 rep sets. Its clear you have an intimate knowledge of my training history or you wouldn't have made such absolutist claims, so I would be interested to know what it was that made the increase.

Forget it. You guys can all work it out for themselves.

I try and help here and this is the crap that I continually get thrown in my face. I keep smiling and keep trying to help. I'll keep trying

Will Heffernan

Sangre wrote: »

Didn't kevpants reported decent gains doing 20 squats and GOMAD?

So if I had of said...'I got some of my best strength gains from drinking milk. Overall intensity at any rep range is key.' No one would have a problem with that?

dartstothesea

If training a lift at 99% or 98% of your max will yield gains for your max, I don't see any reason why training with any number of reps at 97%, 96%, 95%....50%, 49% (all the way down to any % you like) wouldn't do the same thing, albeit to a lesser degree.

Will Heffernan

denvey wrote: »

short answer is volume = size. so if u do 8 sets of 60% 1rm etc u will look bigger but wont be as strong as the guy who lifts 5 sets or 5 reps of say 80% of his 1rm.

computer says no!

I got some of my best strength gains from drinking milk everyday. Overall intensity at any rep range is key

Will Heffernan

dartstothesea wrote: »

If training a lift at 99% or 98% of your max will yield gains for your max, I don't see any reason why training with any number of reps at 97%, 96%, 95%....50%, 49% (all the way down to any % you like) wouldn't do the same thing, albeit to a lesser degree.

Brilliant. How heavy is your duvet? I push mine off every morning bench press style. My max bench has increased so it is safe to say pushing my duvet off me every morning has increased my max bench strength albeit to a lesser degree as it is only 0.89% of my max.

dartstothesea

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Brilliant. How heavy is your duvet? I push mine off every morning bench press style. My max bench has increased so it is safe to say pushing my duvet off me every morning has increased my max bench strength albeit to a lesser degree as it is only 0.89% of my max.

Do you push it a million times? Doubt you'd see any perceptible strength gain there, sorry. Nice extreme example though.

dartstothesea

I don't think any astronomical number of paperclip curls will make much of a difference either. In case anyone's about to wonder.

Will Heffernan

dartstothesea wrote: »

Do you push it a million times? Doubt you'd see any perceptible strength gain there, sorry. Nice extreme example though.

That's fine...where do you want to cut it off then?

You said:

dartstothesea wrote: »

If training a lift at 99% or 98% of your max will yield gains for your max, I don't see any reason why training with any number of reps at 97%, 96%, 95%....50%, 49% (all the way down to any % you like) wouldn't do the same thing, albeit to a lesser degree.

Where do the perceptible strength gains begin or end?

This is what I am talking about...when I refer to a lack of frame of reference. You don't really understand what you are talking about...which is cool. This is a forum for discussion and exchanging ideas and I am all for that. It is just that we are talking very specifically here and people are disagreeing with me about something they don't actually understand to the extent they can't even structure their argument properly because they don't have the vocabulary for it. That is cool too. Like I said...I'm quite happy to leave you to it...I'm sure everyone will be breaking out the google machine as we speak...that's not a bad thing in itself.

dartstothesea

Will Heffernan wrote: »

That's fine...where do you want to cut it off then?


Where do the perceptible strength gains begin or end?

Well, this is exactly the question I was trying to provoke. And I was just interested in getting you to say exactly where YOU believe the max strength gains end. I'm sure working at a 20-rep weight is far from optimal like, but I don't think you could say it means NO gain.
Other than that (maybe even including that) you're right in saying I don't know what I'm talking about.

SanoVitae

Will Heffernan wrote: »

People need to be more specific about what they mean by strength.

Will, can you please specify what you mean by strength? Once we can agree upon a definition, then maybe we can have a constructive debate.

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I highly doubt that anyone has actually improved their 'strength' from 20 rep squats.

If someone is able to squat more weight for 20 reps than they were last month, for example, surely they have improved their strength.

It might not automatically transfer in any way to increase their 1 rep squatting max, but they have definitely improved their strength.

Hanley

Will, you seem to be saying people don’t understand why their max increases after doing 20 rep squats, and that high rep squats aren’t the reason for an increase in max strength?

If that’s what you’re saying, can you please explain why and just put us out of our misery?

Do you agree with the statement “training exclusively in the 15-20 rep range for squats can yield maximal strength increases in beginners and intermediates (and advanced) lifters”? And if you don’t agree, why not?

Will Heffernan

dartstothesea wrote: »

Well, this is exactly the question I was trying to provoke.

What question? Where the cut off is for perceptible strength gains?

And I was just interested in getting you to say exactly where YOU believe the max strength gains end.

I think I understand what you are trying to say? Are you asking what % of 1RM is responsible for 'strength' gains?

I'm sure working at a 20-rep weight is far from optimal like, but I don't think you could say it means NO gain.

OK...that's fair...it is the similar % contribution to maximal strength that rowing in the warm up, brushing your teeth everyday, walking to work, saying your prayers, being nice to others, drinking milk, doing push ups at home has.

Other than that (maybe even including that) you're right in saying I don't know what I'm talking about.

At least we have some common ground

Will Heffernan

SanoVitae wrote: »

Will, can you please specify what you mean by strength? Once we can agree upon a definition, then maybe we can have a constructive debate.

I have already done that.

If someone is able to squat more weight for 20 reps than they were last month, for example, surely they have improved their strength.

It might not automatically transfer in any way to increase their 1 rep squatting max, but they have definitely improved their strength.

And have already explained that as well.

Will Heffernan

Hanley wrote: »

Will, you seem to be saying people don’t understand why their max increases after doing 20 rep squats, and that high rep squats aren’t the reason for an increase in max strength?

What I am saying is that they are adding 1+1 and getting 3.

If that’s what you’re saying, can you please explain why and just put us out of our misery?

I am not trying to be evasive or mess people about. As per usual...I answer a question and end up getting deeper into an argument than I have time or inclination for. If you and I were talking face to face it would take 10 minutes to explain this to you.

Do you agree with the statement “training exclusively in the 15-20 rep range for squats can yield maximal strength increases in beginners and intermediates (and advanced) lifters”?

Yes...of course it can...just like hill sprints will...I wouldn't make a statement like....I got some of my best strength gains from doing hill sprints everyday...though.

And if you don’t agree, why not?

If the discussion remains civil and we can all refrain from being butt hurt I'm only to happy to sit around when I have the time and talk people into unconsciousness on the subject.

Have to do bits and pieces of coaching in between though.

eilo1

em this is an interesting topic, do you think that maybe some strength gain was perceived because you may have been working your type one (slow twitch) muscle fibers by doing 20 reps, where as you usually would be more focused on using your type 2 and type 2x fibers (fast twitch)

Id imagine if you where building these up you should see some increase in muscle size and possibly some increase in metabolism, as you would have more mitocondria with in the muscle to fuel the type 1's?

hmm maybe its just a though........................

Will Heffernan

I have a client who is 44 years old and weighs just over 82kg...in the 8 weeks between their first test and their last...their bench press 1RM went from 95kg to 105kg and deadlift went from 165kg to 180kg...in that 8 weeks they did no flat benching and no straight bar deadlifting....the conclusion from this by extension that not benching and not deadlifting leads to increases in maximal strength on the bench press and deadlift.

1+1 = 3.

dartstothesea

Mitochondria, yes! This shіt's getting good now. I for one definitely want to know more on where Will's coming from here, and promise not to get butt hurt, heh.

Hanley

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I have a client who is 44 years old and weighs just over 82kg...in the 8 weeks between their first test and their last...their bench press 1RM went from 95kg to 105kg and deadlift went from 165kg to 180kg...in that 8 weeks they did no flat benching and no straight bar deadlifting....the conclusion from this by extension that not benching and not deadlifting leads to increases in maximal strength on the bench press and deadlift.

1+1 = 3.

“It is not necessary to flat bench or deadlift to increase your numbers in those exercises (so long as you do exercises that work the same muscle groups that are used in those exercises)”.

Apply that to the squat example tho…

The statement is “doing 20 rep squats has lead to an increase in my max squat weight”.

How does your example of a client NOT doing lifts yet still increasing their max strength on those lifts tie back to doing high rep squats leading to an increase in max strength?

Sangre

Will Heffernan wrote: »

So if I had of said...'I got some of my best strength gains from drinking milk. Overall intensity at any rep range is key.' No one would have a problem with that?

Absolutely not. I just recall being impressed with Kev's 20 rep squats and his reported increases. If they weren't to do with his 20 rep squats (which you claim and I accept at face value) I was only wondering what these gains were attributed to.

On a side note, 20 rep squats probably help build confidence with squats, especially when grindin them out, and knowing your limit i.e. when you have enough in the tank to grind something out.

Pontificatus

Rather than explaining why it wont, perhaps some of you could explain why doing sets of 20reps at 50/60% would increase your 1RM?

d'Oracle

Eh....I thought he was just using the Bench and Deadlift example to illustrate the problem with applying Deductive Logic?

Will Heffernan

Hanley wrote: »

“It is not necessary to flat bench or deadlift to increase your numbers in those exercises (so long as you do exercises that work the same muscle groups that are used in those exercises)”.

Apply that to the squat example tho…

The statement is “doing 20 rep squats has lead to an increase in my max squat weight”.

How does your example of a client NOT doing lifts yet still increasing their max strength on those lifts tie back to doing high rep squats leading to an increase in max strength?

“doing reverse hypers has lead to an increase in my max squat weight”.

“doing 20 cheeseburgers a day has lead to an increase in my max squat weight”.

“doing 20 rep leg extensions has lead to an increase in my max squat weight”.

1+1=3

d'Oracle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deductive_logic

the drifter

i havent deadlifted in nearly a year....but by squatting 4x a week in smolov i pulled 180 on saturday...

1+1=Volume rocks...

Will Heffernan

Sangre wrote: »

Absolutely not.

So milk is the answer to every question?

I just recall being impressed with Kev's 20 rep squats and his reported increases. If they weren't to do with his 20 rep squats (which you claim and I accept at face value) I was only wondering what these gains were attributed to.

Improved mechanical efficiency, improved flexibility, improved mobility, improved stability, improved insulin sensitivity, program variation, improved cholesterol composition, increased tendon and ligament strength...the list goes on and on. The 'strength' improvements can be thrown into the list as well...as they are a 'component' to the improvement.

On a side note, 20 rep squats probably help build confidence with squats, especially when grindin them out, and knowing your limit i.e. when you have enough in the tank to grind something out.

There you go...add that in as well...psychological well being.

Hanley

Will Heffernan wrote: »

“doing reverse hypers has lead to an increase in my max squat weight”.

“doing 20 cheeseburgers a day has lead to an increase in my max squat weight”.

“doing 20 rep leg extensions has lead to an increase in my max squat weight”.

1+1=3

"Squatting has lead to an increase in my max squat weight"

1+1=2

Will Heffernan

Hanley wrote: »

"Squatting has lead to an increase in my max squat weight"

1+1=2

That I don't have a problem with

Hanley

Will Heffernan wrote: »

That I don't have a problem with

And are 20 rep squats not squatting...?

Sangre

Will Heffernan wrote: »

So milk is the answer to every question?

Improved mechanical efficiency, improved flexibility, improved mobility, improved stability, improved insulin sensitivity, program variation, improved cholesterol composition, increased tendon and ligament strength...the list goes on and on. The 'strength' improvements can be thrown into the list as well...as they are a 'component' to the improvement.


There you go...add that in as well...psychological well being.

So if squatting lots at a lower rep range helps improve the above factors, and as a result, your max squat increases. Have you not increased your strength from 20rep squats? Or do you classify the above factors, as seems to be indicated, as non-strength gains which just happen to help increase max lift without your actual muscle strength increasing?

Or have I got you wrong?