I want more than the SM58 gives me for live. With maybe a little studio use.

frobisher

Anyone been using anything for live male vocals that (isn't a '58) and getting good, no make that great, results? I want 'more' than the 58 is giving me, particularly something that I could maybe use in the studio too.
Any thoughts?

PaulBrewer

What's your '58 connected to ?

frobisher

PaulBrewer wrote: »

What's your '58 connected to ?

My mouth Paul. WTF else would it be connected to?

PaulBrewer

You've a DI out ?

...... you know what I mean.

frobisher

PaulBrewer wrote: »

You've a DI out ?

...... you know what I mean.

I know exactly what you mean. But that's a very Brewer-esque response and it deserved to be poked at.

But seriously though, the only consistent thing it'll be attached to IS my mouth. I'm doing more gigs now where it's a constantly different desk/multicore/cable etc and I'm smacking my lips up against a plethora of 58's that have been licked by more mouths Hugh Grants knob. It's grossing me out. Last week I ran out of mics at The Song Room so I brought my SM7b (yeah, yeah I know what you're going to say about it being the same capsule as a 58!), but it sounded very nice. But I'm not going to use it at gigs, it blocks most of my head out and my prettiness is half the show. I also used a Nuemann KM105 a while. It sounded SAVAGE. So I'm going to invest in something I'll still be using in a few years that will make me feel clean and sound posh, whatever I'm plugged into.

PaulBrewer

I see - I didn't know 'Brewer-esque' was a recognized term.
I'll take it as a compliment....

I remember a Madness tour where during production rehearsals the PA company went through 10 or so 58s on Suggs.

They all sounded slightly different !

I guess that over a mics life it changes - depending, I suppose, on conditions they've lived through.

These were all good condition mics too - all pretty new.

Twas an eye opener - that even at that level it was still a 'suck it and see' situation.

I have a '57 refitted with a Tab Funken transformer that's a step above a regular one - maybe try something like that ?

ogy

I really liked an sm87 i got to play with once. Might be worth checking out. I used md421s live a few times, while the sound was great they have the same problem as the sm7b you mentioned.

fitz

I have a 105. It is awesome.
It ain't cheap, but realistically, its what you know you want. Worth splashing out on.

krd

frobisher wrote: »

I'm smacking my lips up against a plethora of 58's that have been licked by more mouths Hugh Grants knob. It's grossing me out.

Bring some listerine. Put a little on a cloth and wipe the mic head. It usually works to get rid of the stinky smell and kill the stinky germs.

I knew someone who used to do this. I think they even used to bring the listerine bottle on stage with them. There's two reasons - if you're a singer, especially if you're on a tour - the last thing you need is a streph throat. A dirty mic will get you streph fast. And the smell. There's nothing worse then getting up to a mic and realising it smells like a knob.

frobisher

krd wrote: »

Bring some listerine. Put a little on a cloth and wipe the mic head. It usually works to get rid of the stinky smell and kill the stinky germs.

I knew someone who used to do this. I think they even used to bring the listerine bottle on stage with them. There's two reasons - if you're a singer, especially if you're on a tour - the last thing you need is a streph throat. A dirty mic will get you streph fast. And the smell. There's nothing worse then getting up to a mic and realising it smells like a knob.

Still, it's a bit like spraying perfume on a turd.

tweeky

Neumann KM105 great in studio also.

krd

frobisher wrote: »

Still, it's a bit like spraying perfume on a turd.

No, it actually works. Listerine is a powerful disinfectant.

The guy who told me this was a professional singer. Sometimes they'd have their own mikes, other times they'd have to use what was there. Part of their whole ritual was to clean the mic heads with listerine before and after a performance, and then pack them away so they wouldn't get dirty (would you put a spoon that's been lying on the floor near your mouth?). If it's you're own mic the technique works better, because you don't give the mic a chance to turn into a festering germ trap.

The guy did tell me of experiences of going out on stage, to someone else's mic. Taking a deep breath before belting it out, and inhaling the odour of a dirty mic and having "I think I'm going to fcuking puke" moment.

When you think about it -- Why would anyone not clean the things?

PaulBrewer

The 105 is a monster no doubt - however many smaller PAs may not have Phantom so it may not be ideal from that point of view.

madtheory

It would be a rather sh**ty PA that would have no phantom power, these days...

frobisher wrote: »

I also used a Nuemann KM105 a while.

So you know what you want, you just want some approval? Go for it, it's a super mic. Alternatively, the handheld Sennheiser dynamics are excellent, better than a 58 for vocals IMO.

frobisher

madtheory wrote: »

So you know what you want, you just want some approval?

Yes. Please give me approval. :rolleyes:

madtheory

LOL!

Savman

frobisher wrote: »

I want 'more' than the 58 is giving me, particularly something that I could maybe use in the studio too.
Any thoughts?

frobisher wrote:

I also used a Nuemann KM105 a while. It sounded SAVAGE.

It's like standing in front of the elephant without seeing the elephant.

If you find a "better" mic than the 58, that has the quality of a Neumann at half the price and does not need phantom power, y'all be sure to let me know

I've been thru a lot of the SM and Beta series at this stage, none compare to the KSM class. The Beta 87 is the only one that comes close, then probably the SM86 but you are still talking phantom power. Some of the smaller powered desks dont have Phantom, so you are screwed without some supplementary device which is just more pointless stuff in the signal chain.

madtheory

Agreed about the elephant.

I still maintain that it would be a pretty awful PA that does not have phantom power. Not sure what you mean by "more pointless stuff in the signal chain", a battery powered phantom power box will not affect the audio quality in any way?

Savman

madtheory wrote: »

I still maintain that it would be a pretty awful PA that does not have phantom power. Not sure what you mean by "more pointless stuff in the signal chain", a battery powered phantom power box will not affect the audio quality in any way?

I merely meant that it's one extra thing to carry, hook up....and eventually lose or forget, which means no fancy mic for the gig. The Dynacord Powermate 600's don't have Phantom power btw, and they are commonplace on small gigs and rehearsals etc.

If I was doing mainly those kind of gigs I'd just get a Beta 57/58 or trusty SM58 and live with it.

madtheory

Savman wrote: »

The Dynacord Powermate 600's don't have Phantom power btw

Didn't know that. Thankfully.

Savman

madtheory wrote: »

Didn't know that. Thankfully.

I found that out the hard way!!!

Zombienosh

I agree with trying different 58's, could be the life of yours, how old is it? maybe try a new one.

frobisher

Zombienosh wrote: »

I agree with trying different 58's, could be the life of yours, how old is it? maybe try a new one.

All my 58's are old tbh. Maybe a new one will do the job. I'd love if it did.

And what's this with the elephants? Is this the elephant that's in the room, is it the elephant we're eating or the white elephant?! Or is it a new brand of high quality dynamic mic that has passed me by? :P

PaulBrewer

sE are coming out with an Elephant Filter ... I heard.

A new 58 would be my choice - at very worst it's a great spare.

novarock

how about th audix OM7, apparently you can crank this thing way up before getting any feedback too.. very handy if you have a loud band.

http://www.thomann.de/ie/audix_om7_vocalmikrofon.htm

frobisher

novarock wrote: »

how about th audix OM7, apparently you can crank this thing way up before getting any feedback too..

That's 'tresting. I do a weekly gig at which fighting feedback can a right pita. Have you used this mic? Anyone else maybe?

novarock

frobisher wrote: »

That's 'tresting. I do a weekly gig at which fighting feedback can a right pita. Have you used this mic? Anyone else maybe?

Noel the house engineer in whelans recommended it to us. He reckons that you could have the gain up completely full on a desk and it wouldnt give any feedback. Its a lot of cash, so we havent got it yet...

Savman

novarock wrote: »

Noel the house engineer in whelans recommended it to us. He reckons that you could have the gain up completely full on a desk and it wouldnt give any feedback. Its a lot of cash, so we havent got it yet...

Uh huh. I would say that is practically impossible.

madtheory

Agreed, that's an odd statement. It's more of a white lie than a white elephant... or possibly hearsay. for a start, what does "gain up completely full" even mean?

Feedback is caused by room modes, depends on where the mic is positioned relative to the nearest speaker. It is possible to position monitors and set up gain and eq so that no mic will feedback, as long as you stick to the gain settings you found in soundcheck of course.

BTW, even the cheap Sennheiser mics sound better than a 58 IMHO. I always add top and pull out 250Hz with a 58 on vocals, with the Senn it's not necessary.

ogy

i've used the om7, albeit only for an hour or two comparing a couple of mics (the same time that i got to try to sm87 actually). its really nice and does claim to have the highest gain before feedback of any mic on the market. very popular across the atlantic apparently, and has a very tight pickup pattern so is also great for singing drummers to avoid too much cymbals in the vocal mic.

novarock

Savman wrote: »

Uh huh. I would say that is practically impossible.

Im sure he meant it in a selling point kind of way - dont shoot the messenger.

madtheory

ogy wrote: »

...and does claim to have the highest gain before feedback of any mic on the market.

Indeed. To quote the blurb:
"In order to achieve these extraordinary performance benefits, the OM7 is designed with an unconventionally low output level (8-10 dB lower than typical dynamic microphones). This low gain stage acts as a natural “pad” at the capsule in order to maintain high fidelity at the source. For this reason, the OM7 is best suited for use with high quality mixing consoles with plenty of head room to compensate for the low gain."

Sounds like bull**** to me. For a start, a dynamic mic doesn't have a "gain stage". And is it not logical that if you add an extra 8-10dB of gain at the desk, it will still be "as loud" as a "typical" dynamic microphone, and therefore just as likely to feedback? And it will be noisier...

PaulBrewer

madtheory wrote: »

bull****

I'm with Mad on this one ...

Mongo

http://www.heilsound.com/pro/products/pr20/

I've not used these mics but I've read nothing but good things. A bit more pricey than a 58 but could be what your looking for?

eoin5

madtheory wrote: »

Indeed. To quote the blurb:
"In order to achieve these extraordinary performance benefits, the OM7 is designed with an unconventionally low output level (8-10 dB lower than typical dynamic microphones). This low gain stage acts as a natural “pad” at the capsule in order to maintain high fidelity at the source. For this reason, the OM7 is best suited for use with high quality mixing consoles with plenty of head room to compensate for the low gain."

Sounds like bull**** to me. For a start, a dynamic mic doesn't have a "gain stage". And is it not logical that if you add an extra 8-10dB of gain at the desk, it will still be "as loud" as a "typical" dynamic microphone, and therefore just as likely to feedback? And it will be noisier...

I could understand a lower inductance giving a flatter response maybe, like an active bass. What they're claiming is still pants about the natural pad good desk needed etc. Maybe the marketing peoples got too much control on the blurb writing.

madtheory

eoin5 wrote: »

I could understand a lower inductance giving a flatter response maybe, like an active bass. What they're claiming is still pants about the natural pad good desk needed etc. Maybe the marketing peoples got too much control on the blurb writing.

What do you mean about inductance? I didn't see that in the specs. But ya, most specs these days get watered down by marketing. Audix are not the only ones.

eoin5

I guess inductance only applies to magnetic coil pickups, I was just trying to relate the two.

madtheory

AFAIK in a microphone capsule the acoustic resonance is the major determining factor of frequency response, the electrical inductance is very low. I'm open to correction though!