Could we take the best of these countries??

sollar

Hi,

I was listening to the Norwegian ambassador to Ireland on Mooney show there and it was a real eye opener. I felt sad for how badly we have been let down by those that have been governing us over the years. But i also felt very impressed by his descriptions of Norway.

Could we not send our top civil servants over to study Germany, Norway, Denmark etc. They seem to really know how to run their countries well. If we did little more copy the best of how these countries are run we could make this a better, fairer country.

Why don't/haven't we done what these countries have done they are proven sucess stories??? Are we electing the wrong people or more fundamentally do we have the wrong people going into politics full stop?




NB: Take a listen to today's mooney show on podcast and listen to the interview, it was very good. Listen to the bit about RTE wages compared to their national broadcaster it was very funny.

Callan57

Maybe if we say Sorry the Danes might come back ... worth a try anyway

bmaxi

The only place to send our "top" civil servants is to the local dole office. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear and these "top" people have been shown not to have what it takes.
Unprecedented wealth and growth in the economy but these wasters, in collusion with corrupt politicians, managed to piss it away. You could send them to Heaven and they'd manage to fcuk it up.

sollar

Yeah there is no question that the people in positions of power in this country over the last 15 years and probably longer have been very poor.

The point i'm trying to get at though is if we looked to these successful and largely fair countries we could improve this country no end.

Just listening to the norwegian ambassador talking about their regulator made me realise how vital they are and how ours let us down so bad. It was just failure after failure.

Nodin

sollar wrote: »

Hi,

I was listening to the Norwegian ambassador to Ireland on Mooney show there and it was a real eye opener. I felt sad for how badly we have been let down by those that have been governing us over the years. But i also felt very impressed by his descriptions of Norway.

Could we not send our top civil servants over to study Germany, Norway, Denmark etc. They seem to really know how to run their countries well. If we did little more copy the best of how these countries are run we could make this a better, fairer country.

Why don't/haven't we done what these countries have done they are proven sucess stories??? Are we electing the wrong people or more fundamentally do we have the wrong people going into politics full stop?

Its a question of mindset and culture. This countries body politic is devoted to what has been called the "anglo saxon" model, and until that changes, little else will, I fear.

CrankyCod

It's a good idea to take the best of the successful countries but unfortunately it is impossible to graft good governance onto a rotten foundation.

As a nation we have a fundamental lack of civic engagement: everybody looks out for their own interests, extending at most to their parish/locality. That's why TD's 'clinics' are full of people trying to jump various queues, and why the appointment of ministers is greeted with so much enthusiasm in their constituency.

Nobody has any sense of a wider society; it will take a generation of proper education in basic civics before we can build a properly functioning society.

fricatus

CrankyCod wrote: »

It's a good idea to take the best of the successful countries but unfortunately it is impossible to graft good governance onto a rotten foundation.

As a nation we have a fundamental lack of civic engagement: everybody looks out for their own interests, extending at most to their parish/locality. That's why TD's 'clinics' are full of people trying to jump various queues, and why the appointment of ministers is greeted with so much enthusiasm in their constituency.

Nobody has any sense of a wider society; it will take a generation of proper education in basic civics before we can build a properly functioning society.

It's probably the governance structures that need to change though, as well as the people. I think it was the Frontline a few months ago that had contributions from Matt Cooper, David McWilliams, Justine McCarthy and so on, but it was Dan O'Brien's call for Dáil reform (list system, appointment of professional ministers from their area of expertise, accountable to the legislature, single-member constituencies, IIRC) that was the most interesting. In my view, this is the most interesting and necessary thing we need to do to change the country.

bmaxi

I certainly think single seat constituencies are a good idea, less pressure on the incumbent to engage in parish pump politics for fear of losing out to a rival, the only problem is getting the right candidates. All the political parties are adept at putting "yes men" up for election.
I don't know what the party structural system is like in the Nordic countries but they do manage to produce outststanding politicians, unfortunately when you have the likes of Cowen running the show, you are always going to get Coughlans and Dempseys.

PanchoVilla

This country would do well to learn from Norway's example. I read somewhere that Ireland has potential billions in offshore oil and Norway would be an excellent partner in accessing these resources.

sollar

It sounds like a very sensibly run country where vested interests didn't get to run riot and they always have one eye on the future. As opposed to ireland over the last 15 years which was more like party central, we'll worry about tomorrow later.

Pete_Cavan

CrankyCod wrote: »

As a nation we have a fundamental lack of civic engagement: everybody looks out for their own interests, extending at most to their parish/locality. That's why TD's 'clinics' are full of people trying to jump various queues, and why the appointment of ministers is greeted with so much enthusiasm in their constituency.

Couldnt agree with you more. The biggest problem in this country is that we elect our local politicians based on local issues, look at Donegal VEC not touched despite bigger VECs being merged.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

This country would do well to learn from Norway's example. I read somewhere that Ireland has potential billions in offshore oil and Norway would be an excellent partner in accessing these resources.

You shouldnt be reading that Shell to Sea website. I know this is off topic but if we had billions in offshore oil we wouldnt need partners.

PanchoVilla

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

You shouldnt be reading that Shell to Sea website. I know this is off topic but if we had billions in offshore oil we wouldnt need partners.

A study commissioned by the Irish government said early data showed potential reserves of 10 billion barrels of oil off Ireland's Atlantic coast.

And we're not even getting the tax we should.

Exploration companies pay a 25 percent tax in Ireland, which rises to 40 percent for the most profitable finds - lower than the 50 percent rate in the United Kingdom, 78 percent in Norway and over 80 percent levied in other regions.

Patrick Shannon, a professor of geology at University College Dublin, said while no oil discoveries had yet been made around the Atlantic margin, tests showed it might lack sulfur, making it easy to refine and more valuable.

"Everybody wants a Brent crude or a West Texas type crude, and the Irish crude oil - certainly in the Atlantic margin - is of that quality," Shannon said. "We know there is a petroleum system, we don't know its extent."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/24/business/worldbusiness/24iht-ireoil.4.15590087.html?_r=1

PatsytheNazi

The state was set up in 1922 by gombeens for gombeens. I remember reading in Ernie O'Malleys excellent On Another Man's Wound how many of the IRA men privately questioned before the treaty if Arthur Griffith for example was even a Republican. The vast majority of the Irish people have always been regarded as "surplus population." that could be got rid of with the emigrant boat as needs be. The main gombeens today being the the bankers and property developers - along with their sock puppet regime in Leinster House.

Pete_Cavan

PanchoVilla wrote: »

A study commissioned by the Irish government said early data showed potential reserves of 10 billion barrels of oil off Ireland's Atlantic coast.

That study was the governments way of enticing oil companies to come here and employ a few of us while they search for this mythical oil. Oil companies are way to smart to fall for this. That study is at least two years old and so if there was anything there you would no longer need to quote "early data" because it would have advanced to something more definite in that time if there was even a hint of oil there.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Exploration companies pay a 25 percent tax in Ireland, which rises to 40 percent for the most profitable finds - lower than the 50 percent rate in the United Kingdom, 78 percent in Norway and over 80 percent levied in other regions.

We have to keep our taxes on exploration and future profits low to encourage exploration. Norway and UK have proven oil reserves and so can charge high taxes and the oil companies will remain because they are sure to be left with some money after taxes. Here we charge oil companies one third what they do in Norway and yet Norway has a huge oil industry while we have nothing. What does that tell you? We have feck all oil. Any oil we do have would be too expensive to extract, even if we only charge 25% tax.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Patrick Shannon, a professor of geology at University College Dublin, said while no oil discoveries had yet been made around the Atlantic margin, tests showed it might lack sulfur, making it easy to refine and more valuable.

"Everybody wants a Brent crude or a West Texas type crude, and the Irish crude oil - certainly in the Atlantic margin - is of that quality," Shannon said. "We know there is a petroleum system, we don't know its extent."

Thanks for backing up my point for me.:D

Anyway, this is off topic, dig up an old thread on the topic if you can to continue with this.

paddyland

It is immaterial whether Norway, Germany, Denmark, or any other country would make a good model for our own country.

The FF party DO NOT WANT a model for our country. They DO NOT WANT a vision. They are perfectly happy with the corrupt system we have now. Well they would be, wouldn't they, after all they created it in the first place.

Do you seriously believe the FF party are crying out for a new vision for Ireland? Damned if they are. There will be no vision for Ireland until they are gone from government, and preferably eradicated entirely as a political entity.

charlemont

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

The state was set up in 1922 by gombeens for gombeens. I remember reading in Ernie O'Malleys excellent On Another Man's Wound how many of the IRA men privately questioned before the treaty if Arthur Griffith for example was even a Republican. The vast majority of the Irish people have always been regarded as "surplus population." that could be got rid of with the emigrant boat as needs be. The main gombeens today being the the bankers and property developers - along with their sock puppet regime in Leinster House.

best post i read all day...i couldnt even add to it as it says it all...

jock101

Sounds like a good idea! I'll come back in about 20 years and see how it goes!;) Fingers crossed!:rolleyes:

murphaph

PanchoVilla wrote: »

This country would do well to learn from Norway's example. I read somewhere that Ireland has potential billions in offshore oil and Norway would be an excellent partner in accessing these resources.

<shakes head>This is exactly the kind of "get rich quick" sh!te that Nordic countries tend to avoid. They undertstand that there's no free lunch. Life is mostly about work, for modest pay, not about pyramid scheme building booms. Their mindset (IMO) is largely derived from their Lutheran value set, even if a lot of them are no longer religious.

Go into any proper Lutheran church:it's a friggin sparse space. No decoration, nothing. These people can see through bullsh!t like glass. They are not impressed by it. They vote accordingly and generally get good governments that represent their outlook.

We get bad governments, BUT they do represent our outlook....

Norway would have good government even if they hadn't a drop of oil because Norwegian people are NOT LIKE US. They give a sh!t about the greater good and aren't all out for what they can get for themselves or the parish GAA team.

Ireland is a fractured country with many (most?!) people displaying more loyalty to their village or GAA county jersey colours than to Ireland.

Callan57

The worrying part is all the accession countries who came here in the last 10yrs to learn from our public service how the Celtic Tiger was produced. If they went home & started to emulate us it's no wonder Angela Merkel is having a conniption!

Zynks

What we have, in my opinion, is a severe need for a cultural review of how we carry our business. Some might have heard the tragic joke of the 'Irish lobsters', which unlike normal ones that help each other to jump out of a bucket when they are captured, the Irish ones drag back in the ones that are about to jump out.

How many people refer to Bono is a good example of this cultural issue.

Another one can be found on Thursday's indo, which opens as follows:

'WE are not negotiating.' With the kind of bluntness only the Dutch can summon up, Anglo Irish Bank's chief financial officer Maarten van Eden has shown subordinated bondholders in the nationalised bank what the future looks like.

Link to article: http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/bondholders-finally-faced-down-by-lenihan-just-ask-abramovich-2397807.html

Why is it that we need a Dutch man to come here to do what we all agree (and actually don't even have a choice, it must be done)? I don't think it is incompetence....

I never understood this lack of 'cojones' very well, but it seems to be linked to the self-deprecating Irish sense of humour. It just isn't acceptable for someone to have strong views and have balls to initiate change.

As far I can see, there is no point talking about Scandinavian examples until we find a way out of this petty approach to ourselves.

Manach

Perhaps it would be worth looking closer to home for examples of good processes practice, in that the IT industry here does operate at world-class standards.

JustinDee

sollar wrote: »

I was listening to the Norwegian ambassador to Ireland on Mooney show there and it was a real eye opener. I felt sad for how badly we have been let down by those that have been governing us over the years. But i also felt very impressed by his descriptions of Norway

There's no comparison between the two countries (I lived in Norway for five years) and achieving a fraction of the level of Norway's infrastructure would be eons away.
Its economy is bouyed by one of the largest oil reserves in the world, a massively protected fishing industry and overwhelming taxation not only on income but in the retail sector which is comprised of permissable cartels (such as the supermarket chains) for example.

Norway is a nouveau riche country since the late 70s/early 80s but
because of how its economy is based, it had something solid to build upon ie. not speculative.
Not the Socialist Shangri La that some 'experts' out there make it out to be. In fact, its as capitalistic a country as Ireland.

mikemac

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

I remember reading in Ernie O'Malleys excellent On Another Man's Wound how many of the IRA men privately questioned before the treaty if Arthur Griffith for example was even a Republican.

Arthur Griffith was a monarchist and Sinn Féin was a monarchist party until the October 1917 Ard Fhéis
Sinn Féin supported the idea of dual monarchy, this wasn't hidden and it wasn't necessary for anyone to privately wonder this what Arthur Griffith views were

It was no great secret

NewHillel

bmaxi wrote: »

The only place to send our "top" civil servants is to the local dole office. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear and these "top" people have been shown not to have what it takes.
Unprecedented wealth and growth in the economy but these wasters, in collusion with corrupt politicians, managed to piss it away. You could send them to Heaven and they'd manage to fcuk it up.

A bit harsh, IMO. Politicions, esp FF, set the policy and drove the leglislative framework. THe "top" were listened to when it suited but most of the time were relegated to a back seat. Instead, we had quangos, advisors, consultants - you name it, we had it. (An interesting exerise would be to study the political affilations of the various parties involved.)

Many top Civil Servants are highly qualified, competent and equal the best in Industry. The OP's suggestion has merit, but I doubt that the political will to support it exists.

NewHillel

Manach wrote: »

Perhaps it would be worth looking closer to home for examples of good processes practice, in that the IT industry here does operate at world-class standards.

Some of that experience, at very senior level, has recently moved from Industry into the Public Sector. I expect it to make a substantial difference!

Pete_Cavan

NewHillel wrote: »

Some of that experience, at very senior level, has recently moved from Industry into the Public Sector. I expect it to make a substantial difference!

Even if the most talented and productive managers from the private sector moved into the public sector I doubt it would make much difference. The problem with the public sector is that there is no accountability and no incentivesto work efficiently. Until we have those things the public sector will continue to cost us money no matter who is in it.

sollar

JustinDee wrote: »

Norway is a nouveau riche country since the late 70s/early 80s but
because of how its economy is based, it had something solid to build upon ie. not speculative.
Not the Socialist Shangri La that some 'experts' out there make it out to be. In fact, its as capitalistic a country as Ireland.

Yeah and they have made the most of what they have. As someone mentioned earlier they would prob still be reasonably sucessful without the oil.

Its a cultural thing i think. E.g. i couldn't imagine that norway would have the same levels of welfare fraud as this country or if their people would even tolerate it like we seem to. Or they wouldn't tolerate politicians creaming of expenses and giving themselves holidays at a whim or touring the country in big cars like rockstars or saudi sheiks.

Their people probably expect more and would frown upon cute hoorism and cronyism, they just wouldn't get the votes.

JustinDee

sollar wrote: »

Yeah and they have made the most of what they have. As someone mentioned earlier they would prob still be reasonably sucessful without the oil

Probably? Hardly.

sollar wrote: »

Its a cultural thing i think. E.g. i couldn't imagine that norway would have the same levels of welfare fraud as this country or if their people would even tolerate it like we seem to

On the contrary, welfare fraud is not only easy there but rampant. To sign on for unemployment/job seeking assistance, for example, you are given a 'meldekort'. This is presented at the Aetat office once a month that you are still in the system or . . . can be done online.
On a personal level, I know people who head away from Norway in winter from there (one used to go working in Mexico) and get someone else to do their meldekort.

sollar wrote: »

Or they wouldn't tolerate politicians creaming of expenses and giving themselves holidays at a whim or touring the country in big cars like rockstars or saudi sheiks

To think this is misguided. Do you honestly believe that Norwegian politicians run up no extravagant costs or expenses? To think that no Norwegian govt official has ever done favours for any of its business community is just naive. I suggest you do a bit of delving into their press.
Økokrim are still a very busy agency.

sollar wrote: »

Their people probably expect more and would frown upon cute hoorism and cronyism, they just wouldn't get the votes.

Who doesn't??

Norwayviking

JustinDee wrote: »

Probably? Hardly.


On the contrary, welfare fraud is not only easy there but rampant. To sign on for unemployment/job seeking assistance, for example, you are given a 'meldekort'. This is presented at the Aetat office once a month that you are still in the system or . . . can be done online.
On a personal level, I know people who head away from Norway in winter from there (one used to go working in Mexico) and get someone else to do their meldekort.


To think this is misguided. Do you honestly believe that Norwegian politicians run up no extravagant costs or expenses? To think that no Norwegian govt official has ever done favours for any of its business community is just naive. I suggest you do a bit of delving into their press.
Økokrim are still a very busy agency.


Who doesn't??

Originally Posted by sollar
Yeah and they have made the most of what they have. As someone mentioned earlier they would prob still be reasonably sucessful without the oil

Probably? Hardly.?

The oil has helped Norway alot,to become a rich country,but dont forget that norway has always have one of the largest merchant fleets in the world.and that is what helped Norways economy boost after world war II.
source
source
And if Norway didnt find the oil,i am sure the merchant fleet toghether with the fishing industry,would have made a great impact on the economy.,and also other resources.:D
And many a norwegian sailor knows that its about who runs the country,cause its sometimes focused to much on the profit(Northraship):mad:

sollar

JustinDee wrote: »

I suggest you do a bit of delving into their press.
Økokrim are still a very busy agency

I don't know a whole lot about norway to be honest other than being impressed with the ambassador's descriptions.

But even if we take germany, denmark etc. I worked in holland for a year and its another efficient and well run country.

I don't think we in ireland have ever had a time where we could say yeah we're going in the right direction now. Maybe for 5 years in the late 90's but the writing was on the wall for what was to come. The property speculation had already begun and we relied too heavily on foreign companies to bring us jobs.

Rebelheart

CrankyCod wrote: »

It's a good idea to take the best of the successful countries but unfortunately it is impossible to graft good governance onto a rotten foundation.

As a nation we have a fundamental lack of civic engagement: everybody looks out for their own interests, extending at most to their parish/locality. That's why TD's 'clinics' are full of people trying to jump various queues, and why the appointment of ministers is greeted with so much enthusiasm in their constituency.

Nobody has any sense of a wider society; it will take a generation of proper education in basic civics before we can build a properly functioning society.

Paradoxically, perhaps, there is still a comparatively large amount of voluntary and community activity in Irish society. If anything gives hope for greater civic engagement it is that.

I've lived in Scandinavia and there is a huge number of things we could learn from those societies. Already our recycling and many of our environmental changes have been inspired by them. I have huge meas for those societies and how they are organised - although I found the people very polite rather than warm.

Finland in particular is very inspiring and has much in common historically with Ireland - foreign occupation for centuries, largescale emigration to Sweden where the Finns worked on building sites and other such work, etc. It is now the success story of world education.

mikemac

If Finland has Nokia, we have success stories like Kerry Group or Dawn Food

Finland has their own banking crises I believe in the 1990's. I don't know enough about it realy but I'll read more about it.
I'm hoping we learned something from past examples

Overheal

sollar wrote: »

Hi,

I was listening to the Norwegian ambassador to Ireland on Mooney show there and it was a real eye opener. I felt sad for how badly we have been let down by those that have been governing us over the years. But i also felt very impressed by his descriptions of Norway.

Could we not send our top civil servants over to study Germany, Norway, Denmark etc. They seem to really know how to run their countries well. If we did little more copy the best of how these countries are run we could make this a better, fairer country.

Why don't/haven't we done what these countries have done they are proven sucess stories??? Are we electing the wrong people or more fundamentally do we have the wrong people going into politics full stop?




NB: Take a listen to today's mooney show on podcast and listen to the interview, it was very good. Listen to the bit about RTE wages compared to their national broadcaster it was very funny.

I'd rather think that ordinary Irish citizens would live and work abroad among their European counterparts, learn those cultures and ideas, and bring back what works. Not send elected officials off for a pow wow and put them up in fancy hotels while they pretend to be learning. I knew of a few people who did construction in germany and flew back every other weekend to hang out at their local. I'd be damned more interested to hear what any of them thinks about politics and such than career politicians.