Mad Men - Does it get good? (Spoilers)

liah

I don't want to post in the other Mad Men Season 4 thread going as I don't want spoilers, I only just finished the first season.

Are there ANY likeable characters in the show? Do they ever stop being complete pricks to each other? I mean, I like the show, and the idea of the show, but all the women are ridiculously stupid and all the men are arrogant pricks. I get "the times were different," but jesus christ. Even in the first few encounters with the Jewish wan when she seemed like she had a backbone she just went down like the rest, nevermind the housewife knowing that he's cheating on her and not caring because he's miraculously decided to go on a holiday with them. Don is a two-faced lying prick, Pete is an arrogant entitled brat, etc.

It just makes no sense, why are they all basically the same character?

Give me a reason to watch the next 3 seasons-- I want to give it more of a chance but I just end up getting irritated at the end of each episode. Everyone has been telling me to watch it since it came out, I must be missing something.

Osgoodisgood

I can't help you I'm afraid. You've summed it up quite well. They are unpleasant characters and the entire show is just to slow and poisonous for my liking.

FortuneChip

I remember watching season one and thinking, "There is not a single nice person in this show" and to be fair, a lot of them remain pricks, hypocrites etc, but they're great characters (A few useless ones here and there though).

I find the show incredibly addictive. It stays fresh all the time and hasn't slumped in any season really, the crossover from Season 3/Season 4 was particularly brilliant in my opinion

mike65

What can one say? MM is the best returning drama series of the last 4 years, now like anything either you get it and enjoy it on its terms or you don't. If you don't after 12 episodes stop now!

pickarooney

There's not a single goodie or baddie in the show. Every single character has his or her good and bad points. They're reasonable approximations of human beings rather than caricatures and the relationships between them are what make the show as much as the intricate plotlines and beautifully constructed replica of the 60s.

Really the best part of the show is the way characters like Pete grow on you and you develop sympathy for Don, despite this seeming impossible based on first impressions. And you're not human if you don't love Joanie.

That said, it's most likely one of those shows where being told it's good will make you resent the fact that it's not immediately appealing, or even after 10 or 20 episodes and the expectation will get in the way of your enjoyment of it (The Wire effect).

JohnK

I'm impressed you made it to the end of season 1, I only got through the first 4 or 5 episodes before I gave up. No interest in watching any more of them as theres just nothing of interest happening. Its a shame really as I'd heard a lot of good things about the show.

mike65

Plenty of things have happened, some charcaters have gained power and prestige, others have lost same, Dons whole "other previous life" has been revealed, the agency has been bought and sold and a new agency created, Pete and Peggy are now the main creative heads (answering to Don of course), Don has got divorced, and increasingly "wasted" while his ex attempts to live the Eisenhower 50s dream in the 60s. Roger Sterling has done blackface song and dance and a man has lost his foot to a ride-on lawnmower - in the Sterling Cooper offices!

Lots has happened, just slowly that all.

Osgoodisgood

mike65 wrote: »

Plenty of things have happened, some charcaters have gained power and prestige, others have lost same, Dons whole "other previous life" has been revealed, the agency has been bought and sold and a new agency created, Pete and Peggy are now the main creative heads (answering to Don of course), Don has got divorced, and increasingly "wasted" while his ex attempts to live the Eisenhower 50s dream in the 60s. Roger Sterling has done blackface song and dance and a man has lost his foot to a ride-on lawnmower - in the Sterling Cooper offices!

Lots has happened, just slowly that all.

Ummmmm.....Spoiler alert?

mike65

I'll put in tags you will have to edit your post

Basq

And I just started watching 'Mad Men'!

mike65

Stick with it, its worth it for the art design, costumes and photography alone!

brianthebard

pickarooney wrote: »

There's not a single goodie or baddie in the show. Every single character has his or her good and bad points. They're reasonable approximations of human beings rather than caricatures and the relationships between them are what make the show as much as the intricate plotlines and beautifully constructed replica of the 60s.

Really the best part of the show is the way characters like Pete grow on you and you develop sympathy for Don, despite this seeming impossible based on first impressions. And you're not human if you don't love Joanie.

Yep all of this will eventually dawn on a viewer, but the show is the ultimate slow burner imo. Nothing actually happens in the first series, and yet! My gf hated it when she first started watching it but couldn't stop either, now she likes it (I think?). Seeing Don's past slowly unfold has been excellent, as well as finding out that Pete is not just all ego. They are as you say real people. I think as well there is a tendency to treat the 50s/60s as a safer time, a time of hippies and security and freedom (paradoxically existing side by side), and the show just rips off that facade, the cliches and exposes society as it happened and was experienced, rather than how we think of it now.

Also would it be rude to ask that people posting spoilers state what series they are referring to? I've only watched one and two, so am very hesitant to check any spoilers.

mike65

My spoilers were very general - about the way various fortunes wax and wane so covers the whole lot so far. No specific details revealed apart from two black comedy "shock" moments.

brianthebard

That's cool wasn't giving out about you specifically just for the future of the thread. I didn't even realise there was a fourth series out like!

SVG

Are there ANY likeable characters in the show? Do they ever stop being complete pricks to each other? I mean, I like the show, and the idea of the show, but all the women are ridiculously stupid and all the men are arrogant pricks. I get "the times were different," but jesus christ.

One of my favourite things about Mad Men is that all the characters do awful things! Lots of people do awful things. I would prefer that Don Draper be demystified rather than idolised.

I don't think the women in it are stupid either. I think the female roles are some of the most interesting and unique on tv- nobody could say Peggy Olsen is stupid! Maybe she's done some stupid things though.

All that said, I did find season 1 tough going at times. I think the second season is much, much better. I found it so compelling. I really looked forward to watching the episodes, whereas sometimes it felt like an obligation for the first series.

I think you should stick with it and at least try the second series. With Mad Men, you get see the characters grow and develop making all the hard slog you put into watching season one really pay off.

liah

I don't like this insinuation that I'm just wanting perfect happy storybook characters-- I'm not, at all. My favourite characters are always those who are flawed.

But I think it's a ridiculously unrealistic depiction of people in general. People in general aren't all selfish, lying, egotistical.. well, ****. There's an awful lot of good people, more good than bad I'd say. I hate that it's considered "more realistic" just because the characters are awful to one another. I mean, come on, like! None of them have any conscious or care for others, they all just go on doing whatever they like and never owning up to it. Yeah. I get it. In the real world, people lie. But in the real world, most people also have a conscience.

I don't know. Like I said, I love the show, but it's infuriating sometimes. I've started the 2nd season, I'll see how it goes. -

SVG

liah wrote: »

I don't like this insinuation that I'm just wanting perfect happy storybook characters-- I'm not, at all. My favourite characters are always those who are flawed.

But I think it's a ridiculously unrealistic depiction of people in general. People in general aren't all selfish, lying, egotistical.. well, ****. There's an awful lot of good people, more good than bad I'd say. I hate that it's considered "more realistic" just because the characters are awful to one another. I mean, come on, like! None of them have any conscious or care for others, they all just go on doing whatever they like and never owning up to it. Yeah. I get it. In the real world, people lie. But in the real world, most people also have a conscience.

I don't know. Like I said, I love the show, but it's infuriating sometimes. I've started the 2nd season, I'll see how it goes. -

Don't worry- people are defending the show not attacking you; you don't have to justify your personal taste.:) If you don't like the first few episodes of season 2, give up and don't look back!

DeepBlue

liah wrote: »

But I think it's a ridiculously unrealistic depiction of people in general.

Weird, I think one of the success factors of the show is that it shows how people do behave rather than how they behave in "TV-land". The 60's setting is just a facade. Throw in a few iphones and laptops and you're not that far removed from how people behave now. The idea that we've hugely progressed is an illusion.

I don't get why people think that we've somehow evolved from 40 years ago. The only difference is that you can't openly behave or say things that would have been let pass back then. Thus the 60's facade allows the writers to comment on how people behave now.

pickarooney wrote: »

And you're not human if you don't love Joanie.

I guess I'm not human.
I do like Peggy though.

pickarooney

liah wrote: »

I don't like this insinuation that I'm just wanting perfect happy storybook characters-- I'm not, at all. My favourite characters are always those who are flawed.

But I think it's a ridiculously unrealistic depiction of people in general. People in general aren't all selfish, lying, egotistical.. well, ****. There's an awful lot of good people, more good than bad I'd say.

Again, it's not about 'good' or 'bad' people, just people doing some good things and some bad things. The central theme of the show is artifice and the crumbling away of façades - advertising (cigarettes are cool and good for you!), conservative America and of course Don Draper himself. Selfishness, dishonesty, onanism are all traits found in each and every one of us. The kindness and heroism is there too; it's just not portrayed through hugs and kisses and pulling babies out of the way of streetcars.

I can understand that even after watching a full season one could dismiss the male characters as arrogant pricks (aside from Sal maybe) but do you really think the woman are ridiculously stupid?

I'm a bit confused as you say one one hand you love the show and on the other you need a reason to keep watching, but really there's no point watching something just because you think you should be enjoying it. I'd still be trying to force myself to sit through The West Wing if I did that.

liah

I just don't get why all the characters have to be so selfish all the time, and that none can relate to one another in any sort of compassionate sense. Nobody ever gets caught, everyone gets away with everything. Is that supposed to be realistic? Realistic would be having at least one or two people with a backbone and a heart (outside of Peggy.. who I just find annoying more than anything though I think that's mostly due to casting). How do they always get away with it? How dumb are they?

Maybe calling the women 'dumb' is using the wrong word; perhaps naive and weak-willed is more like it. Joanie seems to be the only one who actually gets what's going on.

I mean, look at Rachael. She had a backbone-- briefly-- I liked her in the beginning, she was intelligent and business-driven and didn't immediately succumb to Don. When he kisses her she recoils and actually refuses him, albeit temporarily. Then they had to go and ruin her, too, and turn her into nothing more than another one of Don's sexual escapades.

And has he a hint of remorse? Doesn't bloody well look like it. How many has he got on the go now? 3, I think!

Even Peggy got done over a whole lot, but she seems to be pulling herself together and showing that she's not just another dimwit. Wish she didn't annoy me so much else I'd like her.

I don't know. I'd like just one of them to actually show they've cares for other people once in awhile like normal human beings.

I love the show because it's interesting, and I wouldn't mind the rest of the characters if there was some balance in personalities, but there isn't, they're all the same spineless back-stabbing person at the core of it. I'm just hoping that changes.

I expect Don will forever remain a prize wanker and I also expect every woman to continue to be stupid enough to fall at his feet and forgive his every sin, I can get by that bit. But maybe a little diversity is in order?

(Also, I frickin' love the intro credit song. Not sure why, but it's awesome.)

pickarooney

I'm not even sure who 'spineless, backstabbing' refers to but I can't see how it would apply to Peggy, Joan, Roger or even Don (although it's been a while since I saw season one). Pete is anything but spineless.

liah

pickarooney wrote: »

I'm not even sure who 'spineless, backstabbing' refers to but I can't see how it would apply to Peggy, Joan, Roger or even Don (although it's been a while since I saw season one). Pete is anything but spineless.

Don definitely is! He's cheating on his wife with 2 other women at any given moment (at this stage it's up to I think 4 other women he's banged? With obviously many more to come!). That's spineless, cowardly, backstabbing behaviour. He's lying about his past to everyone. Cowardly, for sure. Everything about Don is one big lie, he has no self control or respect for anyone else (well, unless they have a dick). I get that he's supposed to basically "be" an ad-- perfect on the outside and all-- but christ. He's such an unbelievable wanker.

Pete's a llittle backstabber, too, opening Don's mail then trying to blackmail him.. ultimately failing, at that. Also a coward and a cheat. Not to mention a control freak. Real seedy little bugger. Dead curious to see how he changes because so far I don't like him one bit.

Betty's spineless, she knows Don's having affairs and she doesn't do a damn thing even though it obviously bothers her, she just puts up with it and acts like the perfect housewife while he runs around doing whatever he likes.

Roger's lying to and cheating on his wife. An awful lot.

Peggy was ridiculously stupid about the whole Pete thing. But overall she's okay, just hate the actress who plays her. And she's still a liar, what the hell is up with that kid storyline?

Joanie's the only honest one of the lot of them so far. She knows what she's doing, she knows what people think, she doesn't care. But she's still a cruel bitch sometimes.

Every single other girl in the series is a complete dimwitted bint (even the Jewish wan).

All the other guys I'm not too familiar with or haven't had any significant storylines. I like Sal, and the chubby guy with glasses. Pretty much indifferent to Cosgrove, he's just a carbon copy of the rest of them so far.

This is just from watching season one and a few episodes of two.

DeepBlue

liah wrote: »

Don definitely is! He's cheating on his wife with 2 other women at any given moment (at this stage it's up to I think 4 other women he's banged? With obviously many more to come!). That's spineless, cowardly, backstabbing behaviour.

Ah but why does he cheat? What is he looking for and why?
Don in non-cheating mode is a bore.
If you are coming at this show from an "all men are bastards" perspective then it's not for you.
Quick question - does Betty deserve faithfulness? If so, why?

pickarooney

liah wrote: »

Don definitely is! He's cheating on his wife with 2 other women at any given moment (at this stage it's up to I think 4 other women he's banged? With obviously many more to come!). That's spineless, cowardly, backstabbing behaviour. He's lying about his past to everyone. Cowardly, for sure. Everything about Don is one big lie, he has no self control or respect for anyone else (well, unless they have a dick). I get that he's supposed to basically "be" an ad-- perfect on the outside and all-- but christ. He's such an unbelievable wanker.

Pete's a llittle backstabber, too, opening Don's mail then trying to blackmail him.. ultimately failing, at that. Also a coward and a cheat. Not to mention a control freak. Real seedy little bugger. Dead curious to see how he changes because so far I don't like him one bit.

Betty's spineless, she knows Don's having affairs and she doesn't do a damn thing even though it obviously bothers her, she just puts up with it and acts like the perfect housewife while he runs around doing whatever he likes.

Roger's lying to and cheating on his wife. An awful lot.

Peggy was ridiculously stupid about the whole Pete thing. But overall she's okay, just hate the actress who plays her. And she's still a liar, what the hell is up with that kid storyline?

Joanie's the only honest one of the lot of them so far. She knows what she's doing, she knows what people think, she doesn't care. But she's still a cruel bitch sometimes.

Every single other girl in the series is a complete dimwitted bint (even the Jewish wan).

All the other guys I'm not too familiar with or haven't had any significant storylines. I like Sal, and the chubby guy with glasses. Pretty much indifferent to Cosgrove, he's just a carbon copy of the rest of them so far.

This is just from watching season one and a few episodes of two.

OK, I can see what angle you're coming at it from with your idea of spinelessness but at the same time I don't think I'd have any time for the show if they were all happily married and completely honest.

I can't make sense of your appraisal of Rachel Mencken though. Why does sleeping with Don make her a dim-witted bint? He's a good-looking guy and she wanted to shag him - job done and no skin off her nose.

I know I say this with hindsight but your opinions of Betty and Harry (fatty four-eyes) are hilarious different to mine and, I imagine anyone who's seen a bit more of them.

liah

pickarooney wrote: »

OK, I can see what angle you're coming at it from with your idea of spinelessness but at the same time I don't think I'd have any time for the show if they were all happily married and completely honest.

I can't make sense of your appraisal of Rachel Mencken though. Why does sleeping with Don make her a dim-witted bint? He's a good-looking guy and she wanted to shag him - job done and no skin off her nose.

I know I say this with hindsight but your opinions of Betty and Harry (fatty four-eyes) are hilarious different to mine and, I imagine anyone who's seen a bit more of them.

Again in fairness I've only just started season 2, so I obviously don't have the insight of people who've been watching since it began.

Rachael seemed like she was actually going to show some self-respect and not let herself be used by him, she looked like she had a backbone and a brain. She didn't like the idea of being with a married man and stuck by it for a while, but I guess the writers were getting bored of it and just made her another conquest for ratings or something and thus Don finally won his prize. From what I've seen she's been largely forgotten about now. As if she never happened. Just another girl.

I never said I wanted all the characters to be all happily married. It's quite insulting that you think I'm naive enough to think life's so perfect. I don't like too perfect. Flawed is human. But I ALSO don't like that all the characters are asshats. There's usually at least one person who feels bad and has a conscience or gets caught, in every good show theres always balance. This has none. All the main characters are unbalanced; largely selfish cowards with only rare glimpses of humanity who get away with literally everything with no consequences at all. How is that realistic?

I'd expect and enjoy some characters like that. But the entire main cast? Come on.

liah

DeepBlue wrote: »

Ah but why does he cheat? What is he looking for and why?
Don in non-cheating mode is a bore.
If you are coming at this show from an "all men are bastards" perspective then it's not for you.
Quick question - does Betty deserve faithfulness? If so, why?

Didn't notice this post.

He cheats because he doesn't have the balls to actually talk to his wife. I know, people cheat because they're missing out on something from their current relationship, blah blah blah.. bull****. He's a coward who can't hack actually dealing with the truth, as evidenced by his constant running away and hiding from every situation (his past, his wife, sometimes even his kids). He's pathetic so far.

I'm not coming from an "all men are bastards" perspective, the women piss me off just as much as the men, if not more. The perspective I'm coming from is "all these people treat each other horribly regardless of gender."

As for Betty? So far, yes, keeping in mind I've only seen the first season and two or three episodes of season 2.

All I've seen her do is turn away men who come on to her, take care of Don's house and children, and give him everything he wants when he's there. Why the bloody hell wouldn't she deserve faithfulness? From what I've seen so far she has done absolutely nothing to deserve the lack of respect he's shown her. That could change, and obviously will considering the hints dropped, but as of right now nothing she's done could possibly excuse his behaviour.

Again, I have no problem with these characters, I enjoy them and they're human and interesting. It just seriously bothers me that literally every single one of them is so damn.. pathetic. There isn't a single main character who ever takes responsibility for their actions. This is apparently "more realistic," though I don't know where. Most adults I know do.

pickarooney

liah wrote: »

All I've seen her do is turn away men who come on to her, take care of Don's house and children, and give him everything he wants when he's there.

Watch the next couple of seasons if only so you can quote yourself on this and say "how could I have been so wrong?"

In fairness Liah I've had virtually the exact same discussion with my sister about Mad Men although she gave up after a few episodes. It's not as though everyone likes the characters but you.

trebor28

i love this show.

cant get enough of it.

there are too many variables to write about here unless you are willing to type reams of pages into one post.

first some things nothing to do with mad men.
1. how many tv shows/movies have you watched where the baddie is the most interesting character and steals the show?
how boring would the show be if they were all goody goodies and nothing bad ever happened.(you know this already)
we rarely see them do any good stuff because its boring and wont really add to the story. plus that is almost a given, we never see much of a timeline apart from the changing seasons of years. it dosent go week by week on the show.

2. people say it was a different time back then, a simpler time. that may have been the case but doesnt mean it wasnt any less more complex or that bad things didnt happen in real life.
the social norms back then were immense, that is why all the women back then were "stupid" as you say.
their role in life was very straightforward and clearly defined. everything was aimed at finding a husband who had a good income and then to have his babies. end of story. it was still a time of slightly arranged marriages where you picked a man that was suitable to you that pleased your parents.
peggy's whole character is the whole womens lib of the 60's coming out.

back then men were "MEN" they were the bread winners and everybody else were there to please them. because of this they were given carte blanche with a lot of things.
they did bad things cause they could, who was going to stop them?
there is a scene with joanie and her boyfriend in season two, i think, that clearly shows this.
don cheats because he is trying to escape his past life and to relieve the pressure from trying lead a double life and from the pressure of being don draper, the persona he has made for himself. don draper as you have found out is his alter ego, which he has to live with, he has put himself in a position where he is somebody else in his work life where he struggles to live up to this persona, cause dick isnt strong enough to carry it off.
its the same with his home life also, the only chance he gets to be himself is when he is off with his mistress.

the whole show unwinds very very slowly. you have to stay with it to really get the enjoyment out of it.
everyone hates certain people in the show, pete especially.

liah i think you are getting annoyed to much at the women in the show and this is ruining your enjoyment of the show.
i recommend letting that go and just watch it for the writing, the characters and the cinematography.
if you cant then maybe this show isnt for you.

there is so much going on in mad men that its impossible to write about it.
its up there with the wire and th esopranos for its complexity and writing alone.

PhiloCypher

Picked up the boxset of the first 3 seasons of this on blueray a few months ago which for a show like this is really the best way to go as watching it week to week it can seem like nothing ever happens .

It was pretty much an impulse purchase on my part to see what all the fuss was about ... and well I came I saw and it conquered me , its such a good show the writing for it is just superb with such layers of subtext that even when not alot seems to happen there is plenty to mull over .

Vim Fuego

I'm up to date with the US airings so I tend to have to watch them week-by-week now. Normally I fly through box-sets but in the case of MM, I quite like to watch them at that pace. It gives me time to think about what I've seen and try to figure out the motivations of characters and where they're going with it. If anything, it's the most nuanced show I've seen. Looks, nods & sly little comments all add up and give more weight to what is happening.

Having seen all four seasons now, I LOVE Pete but I really hated his character for a long time. It's the thing I love most, the characters just keep on developing in a realistic manner and you're forced to challenge your own initial perceptions. You don't really get that too often. I'm fine with them all appearing to be pricks but I can't think of one character at this stage where we haven't seen their softer side, and not in a typical TV-land turn of face way either. Now up at the end of the 4th season, I can't think of a character I dislike.

There's so much going on that can be analysed as well. Don's motivations, the changing status & role of women, the relationships between Pete & Don, Peggy & Joan, the client-agency relationship, alcoholism, changing societies.....the list goes on. The Guardian, Huffington Post & other outlets have very detailed analysis of practically every episode, they pack so much into a 1-hour show, it's hard to catch it all in one viewing.

Ah well, love-in over. I'm sorry you're not enjoying it, a few of my friends are the same. Not everyone has to love it, there's plenty of TV out there for everyone. I think if you don't like it at this stage, you probably never will. Another poster mentioned that it is sometimes a slog but I am completely the opposite; it has never been less than a joy to watch this story unfold.