The morality of running a race without a legit number

Woddle

The other thread has ran it's course so I locked it but the question is still a good one.
Please refrain from naming people in this thread.
Thanks

robinph

In an answer to a question on the other thread, it would not be a good idea to be mistaken for me if you were to collapse on the course. The hospital would soon be putting an unconscious you on drugs that would not be doing you any favours at all.

nerraw1111

As far as morals go on non legit numbers, it's up there with race organisers not offering refunds, deferrals or transfers on race entries.

They invite non legit runners through this policy.

From DCM's website: "Sorry, under no circumstances will you get a refund or deferment if you can't run."

I'd have no problem buying another runner's entry and run without a legit number. I'd be quite happy to sell mine too.

The other argument is that Dublin is my city and my taxes are paying for the road closures. Perfectly entitled to run along public roads on a bank holiday.

Morals don't come into it. However, quite why you'd want to run a marathon without recording an official time is another thing.

aero2k

Woddle,

I have to admire your optimism in starting a thread about morality - in Ireland!:D

I think it's immoral.

Apart from all the stuff involved in organising a race that has to be paid for, there's an untold amount of unpaid and often underappreciated work that takes place. Not paying is an insult to all those volunteers and to the people who've actually bothered to enter properly.

If the event is worth doing, it's worth entering officially.

This being Ireland, there's probably loads of sneaky admiration for the cute hoors that do it and apparently get away with it, but you don't have to look far to see where that kind of thinking leads.

robinph

aero2k wrote: »

If the event is worth doing, it's worth entering officially.

+1

If you have a problem with an event then don't enter it, but don't then go and think you can do it for free.

shels4ever

Does a Pb count if your not registered ;)_

c montgomery

nerraw1111 wrote: »

As far as morals go on non legit numbers, it's up there with race organisers not offering refunds, deferrals or transfers on race entries.

They invite non legit runners through this policy.

From DCM's website: "Sorry, under no circumstances will you get a refund or deferment if you can't run."

.

Agreed.

aero2k

nerraw1111 wrote: »

As far as morals go on non legit numbers, it's up there with race organisers not offering refunds, deferrals or transfers on race entries.

Nothing immoral about a commercial organisation clearly stating the terms on which they will accept your business. (this is a business transaction - for those willing to pay). Just like Ryanair, just because you don't like a condition, even an unreasonable one, doesn't make it immoral.

nerraw1111 wrote: »

They invite non legit runners through this policy.

From DCM's website: "Sorry, under no circumstances will you get a refund or deferment if you can't run."

As above, this is clear, if you don't like it, don't enter. I don't think this condition of entry is an invitation to do anything, tbh.

nerraw1111 wrote: »

I'd have no problem buying another runner's entry and run without a legit number. I'd be quite happy to sell mine too.

Thus potentially causing the type of problem Robin refers to.

nerraw1111 wrote: »

The other argument is that Dublin is my city and my taxes are paying for the road closures. Perfectly entitled to run along public roads on a bank holiday..

Our taxes pay for lots of things we don't automatically have unlimited access to. My taxes pay for Dublin Bus, the Luas and the M50, but I still have to pay fares/tolls when I avail of those services.

BTW if a road is closed, is it still public? I'm fairly sure the Gardai are involved in the road closures, and they might have an opinion on who's entitled to avail of them. Parhaps Hardworker can enlighten us.

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Morals don't come into it.

Taking something without paying for it is stealing. Like it or not, the DCM organisers are providing a service - closed roads, water stations, marshals, for which they demand payment. Not paying and still availing of the service, albeit minus chip timing, is stealing.

ecoli

nerraw1111 wrote: »

As far as morals go on non legit numbers, it's up there with race organisers not offering refunds, deferrals or transfers on race entries.

They invite non legit runners through this policy.

From DCM's website: "Sorry, under no circumstances will you get a refund or deferment if you can't run."

I'd have no problem buying another runner's entry and run without a legit number. I'd be quite happy to sell mine too.

The other argument is that Dublin is my city and my taxes are paying for the road closures. Perfectly entitled to run along public roads on a bank holiday.

Morals don't come into it. However, quite why you'd want to run a marathon without recording an official time is another thing.

Few things about this which should be cleared up as i learned when organizing races in the past. Not usually one to side with RO s but we complain when races aren't held to high standard and are profit driven yet don't take into account athletes hones to ensure it a two way system

1) I think the reason for no refunds is the fact that finisher medals, t shirts goodie bags etc not to mention chip timing figures and that are based on number of entrants. Say for example a small race (less than 500 people) plans all this with that figure in mind and have so X amount per athlete. All of a sudden another race comes along that people want to do and get refunded. Suddenly you are making X amount loss per athlete therefore the race will be financially crippled and thus you cannot continue as a race.

2) Believe it or not your taxes aren't paying for the road closures in fact there is a fee which must be paid to the local county council by the race organizers which varies between the CC and to put on the a race such as the DCM is a lot more than you would guess


Personally i think while race organizers should take a lot of responsibility for races, athletes should also remember that their needs to be a two way system to ensure that races can be held to the highest standards possible

nerraw1111

Aero, I get what you're saying. I just disagree with you.

I'm arguing over what is moral and what isn't, in my opinion. You rightly point out that DCM makes it clear that they don't offer refunds etc.

I think it's immoral for a commercial company not to offer refunds regardless whether it's set out in the terms and conditions. You say it might be unreasonable, I say immoral.

In the case of Dublin Marathon, the organisers are acutely aware that injuries are quite common and some people will miss the race through no fault of their own. I think it's immoral then not allow transfers or a deferral in this situation when other races offer such a service.

It's all above board and clearly set out, but i think still immoral as it takes advantage of a person's bad luck.

YFlyer

shels4ever wrote: »

Does a Pb count if your not registered ;)_

Well if you get the olympic qualifying time it won't make a difference, I think. AFAIK the DCM is not on the list of registered marathons for the Olympics.

gerard65

If everyone took the attitude of not paying there would be no races. Your local BHAA would'nt exist if no one paid their tenner. Your local 10k would'nt exist, or your marathon, so you'd be out training saying to yourself 'it'd be great to have a race to see how fast I am, you know, I'd even pay for it'.
There will always be the 'cute hore' who will try to scam or get something free while others pay, its the world we live in, but the vast majority are honest and 'pay to play'.
As for the morality question, well, its stealing, plain and simple. But I don't think anyone is going to admit to being a thief.

HardyEustace

While I think that there is merit in having refunds/transfers for races, it's a separate issue to the thread subject. The thread subject here is the morality of running a race without a legit number.

donothoponpop

YFlyer wrote: »

Well if you get the olympic qualifying time it won't make a difference, I think. AFAIK the DCU is not on the list of registered marathons for the Olympics.

Is this your own speculation, or can you point to where I might see said list?

Staying on topic, of course if you ran with the wrong number, you'd not get an official time to qualify.

YFlyer

donothoponpop wrote: »

Is this your own speculation, or can you point to where I might see said list?

Ok I have not found the list of marathons for the 2012 Games. However in this link there are 2 PDF files on the list for the 2008 Games.

http://www.iaaf.org/oly08/standards/index.html

aero2k

nerraw1111 wrote: »

In the case of Dublin Marathon, the organisers are acutely aware that injuries are quite common and some people will miss the race through no fault of their own. I think it's immoral then not allow transfers or a deferral in this situation when other races offer such a service.

It's all above board and clearly set out, but i think still immoral as it takes advantage of a person's bad luck.

If the DCM organisers set out to take advantage of someone's bad luck, then that would be immoral. Try as I might, I can't imagine the planning meeting with the Powerpoint slide saying "okay, now if 20,000 enter, and they all get injured, we can stay in bed on Monday 25th, and bank a nice tidy profit."

In an ideal world they would offer refunds, however for every genuine injury case, there's be loads taking the p1ss, and just adding in costs that ultimately would be borne by the other entrants. And imagine they offered refunds up to Sunday, and some poor unfortunate sprained their ankle while walking from the baggage area to the start line? The bigger the race, the harder it would be to administer. They have to draw a line somewhere. Call it unreasonable, inconvenient, inconsiderate, but it's perfectly moral.

Slightly off topic, but an example that echoes or rebuts some points made above:

My taxes pay for the OPW and hence the upkeep of the wonderful Phoenix Park. I'm a huge Tom Waits fan, and he played a gig in the park last year. The tickets were about €100, and there was a strict policy of non transferability. I doubt if anyone got in without paying, and I'm pretty sure there were no refunds for no shows either. I didn't like the conditions of entry (i.e. the ticket price) so I stayed away rather than gatecrashing. While my gut reaction is that I'm a bit uneasy about the Park being used in this way, when I think about it rationally the organisers have costs they want to cover and make a profit too, just like the race series organisers.

robinph

YFlyer wrote: »

Ok I have not found the list of marathons for the 2012 Games. However in this link there are 2 PDF files on the list for the 2008 Games.

http://www.iaaf.org/oly08/standards/index.html

I think there was an issue with the course not having been certified to the correct standard prior to the 2008 games and a couple of people then didn't get the times they thought they had to make their national teams so were trying again in London. Dublin is now certified to the required standard as far as I recall.

YFlyer

robinph wrote: »

I think there was an issue with the course not having been certified to the correct standard prior to the 2008 games and a couple of people then didn't get the times they thought they had to make their national teams so were trying again in London. Dublin is now certified to the required standard as far as I recall.

Ok Thanks. More reason for shels4ever to be registered.

Slogger Jogger

I know of at least 1 guy who is strongly involved in athletics who recorded a decent time (so its easy to check) in the marathon on Monday but their name is not shown in the result for that time so I'm assuming they ran with someone else's number. The only possible good explanation is an honest mistake in picking up a no. of race numbers and wearing the wrong one. The alternative is that they knowingly used someone else's number which as we all know is bad form.

plodder

I'd say you're probably legally entitled to run on the public road, even if not entered in a race. But you're definitely not entitled to take water, tee-shirts or medals, when you haven't paid. That is theft.

Though I think it's a far lesser crime to swap/buy or sell a race number. Marathon entries are just too expensive to see money thrown down the toilet like that. I don't really get the medical type arguments. If you fill out the race number with your own details, then what's the problem?

robinph

plodder wrote: »

I don't really get the medical type arguments. If you fill out the race number with your own details, then what's the problem?

I've certainly filled in online entries where they wanted next-of-kin details for their database. Someone getting identified as me by the race organisers whilst they are unconscious on the side of the road would then result in a phone call to people who would quickly tell them what meds to put me on to sort me out.

Person who was found on the side of the road then ends up dead if they happen to not be paying very close attention. It wouldn't even need them to be showing the right symptoms of me being bad, they would just get stuck on my meds regardless if identified as me.

plodder

I've certainly filled in online entries where they wanted next-of-kin details for their database. Someone getting identified as me by the race organisers whilst they are unconscious on the side of the road would then result in a phone call to people who would quickly tell them what meds to put me on to sort me out.

Person who was found on the side of the road then ends up dead if they happen to not be paying very close attention. It wouldn't even need them to be showing the right symptoms of me being bad, they would just get stuck on my meds regardless if identified as me.

I know where you're coming from Robin. But if that really was the issue for race organisers, then they could allow people to change those details for a fee. Surely, 10 quid would cover the cost of doing that. Over 2,000 people entered the DCM this year, who failed to register at the expo or start. Many of those were injured I'd guess. What a waste of money, especially if someone else wanted to take their place.

robinph

plodder wrote: »

I know where you're coming from Robin. But if that really was the issue for race organisers, then they could allow people to change those details for a fee. Surely, 10 quid would cover the cost of doing that. Over 2,000 people entered the DCM this year, who failed to register at the expo or start. Many of those were injured I'd guess. What a waste of money, especially if someone else wanted to take their place.

That road races generally don't allow any kind of transfers, but tri's do is a bit off and some kind of method of transfers would be good. You do have to have a time cut off though at which you don't allow them anymore. The fact that there isn't any limit on total numbers been reached for DCM means that if you thought you might get injured then just leave registering until the cut off, you pay a higher fee for getting that benefit though.

If we decide that all of the 2000 people who didn't turn up on Monday were injured, then they either decided that entering earlier for a cheaper price was worth the risk knowing that they wouldn't get their money back, or they got injured at the very last minute and there isn't much can be done for people in that situation. Apart from a bit of sympathy.

donothoponpop

<mod> I've removed off topic posts, this thread wasn't set up to debate downloading music, there's an Off Topic thread there for that. /<mod>

RacoonQueen

How many marathons actually offer deferrals then? Out of three I can think of only one of them doesn't charge you for your entry the next year, thats Connemara. Edinburgh and New York both charge you again for your entry, in New York all you're doing is holding onto your place.

robinph

I got a deferral for my London '95 entry, still had to pay the full price again in '96 though.

Hard Worker

Slogger Jogger wrote: »

I know of at least 1 guy who is strongly involved in athletics who recorded a decent time (so its easy to check) in the marathon on Monday but their name is not shown in the result for that time so I'm assuming they ran with someone else's number. The only possible good explanation is an honest mistake in picking up a no. of race numbers and wearing the wrong one. The alternative is that they knowingly used someone else's number which as we all know is bad form.

There are a tiny percentage of chips that aren't read properly which could lead to people not being in the first strand of results. We have a back up system which can be called on to correct any of those queries.
I know of one such very good athlete to whom this happened. He actually posted his disappointment on another thread. Maybe it's the same athlete you are referring to.

dna_leri

robinph wrote: »

I've certainly filled in online entries where they wanted next-of-kin details for their database. Someone getting identified as me by the race organisers whilst they are unconscious on the side of the road would then result in a phone call to people who would quickly tell them what meds to put me on to sort me out.

Person who was found on the side of the road then ends up dead if they happen to not be paying very close attention. It wouldn't even need them to be showing the right symptoms of me being bad, they would just get stuck on my meds regardless if identified as me.

I don't really get the medical type arguments either. Do the medical staff who attend to fallen athetes really consult the race database or do they look at what is written on the back of the race number?
I think the latter but maybe all big races do not have this on the back of the number, they should.
The medical arguement is over-used by race organisers who do not want the hassle of transfers because they have your money anyway.
I don't condone the use of borrowed numbers but in this technological age an electronic transfer system would be easy.

robinph

Yes, the medical staff will consult the back of the number as their first source.

Most people won't be writing on the back of their number though I suspect, unless they have a good reason to as in my case. If you've got nothing on the back of your number then you will end up getting identified as someone else, and you have no idea who.

ultraman1

moral'y wrong to pay for someone else's number?,maybe not right but not moral'y wrong,i dont think purgatory awaits them.....(may have spelt moral'y wrong)

jb-ski

Running a race with a totally dodgy number (robinph story) is just weird; don't know about the 'morality' of it.

A local inexpensive charity race with non-legit/transfered number is just mean.


however, i would run London, New York etc with a dropout/injured persons number, without worrying too much about the 'morality' of it.

surely we all know someone who ran Dublin with somebody else's number??

(or do i just hang out with 'bad' people?:o)

chinguetti

I think there's a difference between running a race with no number and running it with someone else's number. Morally both actions are wrong in my book. If you really wanted to run the event, you would enter in time and pay your money. How can you tell people that you got a PB in an event when you didn't enter it? You can never prove your time from the results list.

With no number, they can just be hauled off the road, embrassed in front of people and problem solved. If they get to the finish, name and shame them on the website and that will largely solve it happening again in the future. However, someone will always try to be smarter than the organisers.

With someone else's number, there always the chance (and yes it is small) that you may fall/injury/collapse etc causing alot of problems for the medical teams/stewards as you are someone else in their eyes. They then have to go try and contact someone's next of kin who isn't running which can be a nasty shock for that person's family.

Also, naming and shaming people who are a male in their 50's with a number belonging to a girl in her 20's is a great idea i think. Was it Ballycotton did it last year if i recall right. It was from the Running in Cork website?

HardyEustace

They did the name and shame thing last year in the Galway 5k, in the case of a number swap, and then pulled it a few hours later.

It could be considered unfair to just single one person out and name and shame them when a much larger group are doing it.

I'd have no problem with naming and shaming someone who hopped a barrier and ran in the race without a number but the whole number swap thing is rather more a grey area and often people don't realise the repercussions of it.

In the same way, I think that there should be more information for people new to races about race etiquette and actually getting into your relevant "time pen" or "time slot" rather than elbowing your way to the front and getting in the way of elite/much faster runners, so I think that explaining the reasons/repercussions surrounding number swaps might help highlight the reasons for difficulties associated with it.

robinph

Yep, someone just turning up without a number and running along with their mates and seeing how far they get is something different. It's annoying to those around you and causes un-needed congestion on the course, but you'll not get to the finish and you'll not get a result and people will point and laugh as you get hauled into the crowd along the final straight.

Actually wearing a fake number to try and pull the wool over the eyes of the organisers is something else though. That is clearly pre-planned in order to try and actually get stuff from the race for free.

liamo123

Just after seeing my pics on Marathonfoto..In the middle of them is a fella with the same number as me; 1289..its deffo not me

chinguetti

chinguetti wrote: »

Also, naming and shaming people who are a male in their 50's with a number belonging to a girl in her 20's is a great idea i think. Was it Ballycotton did it last year if i recall right. It was from the Running in Cork website?

Sorry, i'm using the above as an example that i made up, no idea who they used in the 'name and shame' bit i saw on some website after a race early this year but i do think if was the Munster area. Again just going from a hazy memory.

robinph

liamo123 wrote: »

Just after seeing my pics on Marathonfoto..In the middle of them is a fella with the same number as me; 1289..its deffo not me

They have just mis-tagged that one, there is another 1 underneath that guys thumb.

There was a second someone else appeared in my photos as well, but that was just where they had misread a 4 as a 1. Click the "Not Me" button and they will re-tag it.

liamo123

robinph wrote: »

They have just mis-tagged that one, there is another 1 underneath that guys thumb.

There was a second someone else appeared in my photos as well, but that was just where they had misread a 4 as a 1. Click the "Not Me" button and they will re-tag it.

Sh!te c it now...tks robinph

jb-ski

robinph wrote: »

They have just mis-tagged that one, there is another 1 underneath that guys thumb.

There was a second someone else appeared in my photos as well, but that was just where they had misread a 4 as a 1. Click the "Not Me" button and they will re-tag it.

ah sh1t:)

i was going to keep all my old race numbers and just use them year after year, if it was that easy!



(btw i am joking)

aero2k

HardyEustace wrote: »

In the same way, I think that there should be more information for people new to races about race etiquette and actually getting into your relevant "time pen" or "time slot" rather than elbowing your way to the front and getting in the way of elite/much faster runners, so I think that explaining the reasons/repercussions surrounding number swaps might help highlight the reasons for difficulties associated with it.

I fully agree, but unfortunately enough people ignore requests/suggestions/rules to cause inconvenience to others - in the case of slow runners up front it doesn't take to many to cause havoc. Some will read the information and ignore it, which is annoying, others won't bother to read it, which is equally annoying.

robinph

You really don't want to be this guy, just meters before the finish line:



You've run the 26 miles, but those 0.2 are still important and you don't get to do them. Really not worth the bother of trying to cheat the system.

ultraman1

robinph wrote: »

You really don't want to be this guy, just meters before the finish line:



You've run the 26 miles, but those 0.2 are still important and you don't get to do them. Really not worth the bother of trying to cheat the system.

id be more worried about being caught by the gotcha...

RacoonQueen

Is there anyone on here who wouldn't take a number if it was offered to them?

I was offered one for a race by someone on here last year after the one I had for said race disappeared. I'd have taken it too if I hadn't sorted it out with the race organisers. I'd have been no different to people who don't register but use someone elses number...

Condo131

nerraw1111 wrote: »

The other argument is that Dublin is my city and my taxes are paying for the road closures. Perfectly entitled to run along public roads on a bank holiday.

I'm afraid you're mistaken there. Road closure costs the Dublin City Marathon crew..and, by extension...competitors very dearly. I'm not privy to the costs, but I am aware that, last year, road closure cost the Marathon something of the order of €300,000 (I kid you not - there's no mistake with zeros there - three hundred thousand euro!!

wrt the other point, yes, with few exceptions, you are entitled to run along a public road any time you want. However if you do run as a 'bandit', in a race, then YOU are not covered by the race insurance. Furthermore, in the unlikely event that YOU cause an accident on the course, then YOU are personally liable.

Condo131

shels4ever wrote: »

Does a Pb count if your not registered ;)_

Sorry shels, a P.B. is only a P.B. if it's recorded somewhere and can be backed up. No entry = no time = no p.b.

Condo131

YFlyer wrote: »

Well if you get the olympic qualifying time it won't make a difference, I think. AFAIK the DCM is not on the list of registered marathons for the Olympics.

?????
Personally I'm not aware of a definitive "list of registered marathons for the Olympics". Most IAAF federations do now require that qualifying times be achieved on AIMS registered courses. Dublin City Marathon IS an AIMS registered course and has in the past been used as one of the Irish selection/qualifying races.

Wrt your later post, with the IAAF list of approved qualifying events. This list does not preclude other events: "3.8.1 All performances must be achieved during competitions organised or authorised by the IAAF, its Area Associations and its National Member Federations."

Condo131

plodder wrote: »

Though I think it's a far lesser crime to swap/buy or sell a race number. Marathon entries are just too expensive to see money thrown down the toilet like that. I don't really get the medical type arguments. If you fill out the race number with your own details, then what's the problem?

Hi Plodder, on this point, your post is similar to plenty others , so I've just taken yours at random.

wrt medical arguments/filling out your own details:
1 Most people, including swappers, don't do this.
2 YOU can't guarantee that the back of the number, providing that it's still legible, will be read before the next of kin (based on the info in the entry system database) has been contacted. There have been many cases of mistaken identities based on number swaps.
3 There have been cases of problems treating people with medical conditions, due to mistaken identity.

On the general case of swapping, there is MAJOR mayhem in most big races due to number swaps when it comes to prizes. Ballycotton 2010 has been mentioned as an example in other posts. Several people, who were present in the hall for the Prize-giving, were denied their rightful podium place on the day, because cheats swapped numbers and ran in different categories and different sexes. This is grosly unfair to the rightful winners and also gives undue hardship to the organisers, in retrieveing and redistributing prizes afterwards. I have no doubt that many prizes are also taken illegitimately on this basis.

Wrt race organisers refunding fees, I think, on the face of it, to be not unreasonable. However, it requires another area of organisation and additional costs to the event, so entry fees would have to rise to cover this. In addition, the revenue shortfall almost certainly would require an increase in the entry fee. Ihmo, everyone loses on this question.

jb-ski

Condo131 wrote: »

Wrt race organisers refunding fees, I think, on the face of it, to be not unreasonable. However, it requires another area of organisation and additional costs to the event, so entry fees would have to rise to cover this. In addition, the revenue shortfall almost certainly would require an increase in the entry fee. Ihmo, everyone loses on this question.

while i wouldn't argue with any of the other points,
surely a name change up to 10(?) days before an event for a small fee wouldn't be unrealistic with the technology now available.
it might help to reduce the amount of number swopping/messing that goes on.

robinph

A name change, up to a point, would be perfectly reasonable I think for a fee. It wouldn't work for DCM though because you would need the person taking the number to be the same category and speed as the person who paid for the number initially or you have people going to the wrong starting pens.

Are there many races in Ireland that actually become sold out?

Maybe that 10km through the city centre where you take your fags and pack lunch around with you might sell out, but DCM doesn't as far as I know. If the reason for wanting to number swap is just because you were too lazy to get sorted in time for the cut off date then I'd say no to it. If the race sold out in a day though then allowing transfers up till a few weeks before is reasonable. I'd not be in favour of allowing refunds though, if you can find someone to take your number then fine, but to cancel and want your money back, no.

jb-ski

robinph wrote: »

Are there many races in Ireland that actually become sold out?

Maybe that 10km through the city centre where you take your fags and pack lunch around with you might sell out, but DCM doesn't as far as I know. If the reason for wanting to number swap is just because you were too lazy to get sorted in time for the cut off date then I'd say no to it. If the race sold out in a day though then allowing transfers up till a few weeks before is reasonable. I'd not be in favour of allowing refunds though, if you can find someone to take your number then fine, but to cancel and want your money back, no.

that's a good point, other than Conn & most triathlons, i don't know of many races with limited entries.

Well apart from that 'Marathon' in June of course...........;)

robinph

jb-ski wrote: »

Well apart from that 'Marathon' in June of course...........;)

Post reported for offensive language.