Direct Democracy?

strobe

Hi, I just wanted to raise the question of the pros and cons of direct democracy versus representative democracy. There are a few reasons I have been reading up on it lately. One was a situation in the Dail where a Fianna Fial politician was ordered to vote alongside the party, I believe it was to do with the stag hunting ban.

I'm not really up on political theory, at all, so I was quite surprised to find out that this is fairly common practice with political parties within the representative system. I was always under the assumption that TD/MP's were meant to represent the will of their constituents. Maybe this is what is supposed to happen in theory but it is clearly not what happens in practice.

So I started reading up to find out if there was a political system made up only of independent members of parliament, in which political parties wouldn't exist or would lack effect. Hence I was brought to DD.

I'm failing to see how or why RD is in place, either here or in most democratic countries rather than DD. For the above reason as well as things like Initiatives, I mean look at the situation here where we are Still waiting for the government to carry out the referendum on children's rights. And Recall, who wouldn't be in favour of turfing out one or two of our politicians by popular demand, or at least get some by-elections which are STILL being delayed?

It seems to be extremely successful in Switzerland from what I can see and always has been.

Like I say, I'm not too well versed on the finer points of politics but am I missing something here? Is there some obvious downsides that would not be off set by the upsides?

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So I'm just curious if I could ask the posters here, who have probably researched this stuff more extensively than I have, would you be in favour of direct democracy? If so, in what form? True pure direct democracy? The 'double majority' system of DD that Switzerland employ? Or do you feel that representative democracy is the superior system, and if so why?

Also would it be possible for direct democracy to be implemented here? By which I mean, does our constitution specifically specify our current representative democracy form?

Could a party form under our current system on the platform of introducing a referendum to switch to DD if they were elected? Does such a party exist? If not why not?

Thanks in advance for any answers or replies.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_Switzerland

RDM_83 again

Something I was not aware of till very recently is the ability many states in the USA for the voters to recall elected officials in local and state government.

http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=16581

Dorcha

Yes, I would like the Swiss model tried here, but unfortunately it won't be, because people here stand for election not for the good of the country but for personal gain, and they wouldn't get away with what they are getting away with here, under that system.

At the moment Internet voting might be agood idea for people who have access to the Internet, but it would depend on whether you trusted that your vote would be fairly included, and I certainly wouldn't trust any of the present politicians.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Just bumping this thread because I wanted to ask near the exact same thing.

Was reading the thread about a referendum for the bailout and people pointed out the downsides of DD in that people are unlikely to vote for high taxes etc.

What protections do they have in switzerland on this?

How did say the minaret ban referendum come about? Whilst I'm not totally against that ban I would be wary the same kind of ban could be used elsewhere to trample on minorities.

Like what if enough idiots wanted to ban same sex couple marriage. A well funded campaign and scare tactics about gay dads could easily get 50% of the Irish electorate to vote yes on a ban.

Denerick

Californians consistently vote to reduce taxation whilst increasing public spending. Direct democracy only works if all citizens are rational, virtuous and generous. This is clearly not the case as most citizens are irrational, stupid and greedy. Until human nature evolves we are stuck with our great compromise (The Democratic Republic) which has done a relatively good job at protecting liberty whilst maintaining decent living standards. Which is surely what we want out of our political system.

Cork boy 55

In the orginal free state constitution we had direct democracy
in 47 and 48 articles however for various reasons they never got fully
passed and in 1938 De valera dropped them from
new constitution
They should be put back in as part of politcal reform

http://www.directdemocracyireland.org/2011/02/the-text-of-articles-47-and-48-of-the-1922-irish-constitution/


The text of articles 47 and 48 of the 1922 Irish Constitution

Article 47.

Any Bill passed or deemed to have been passed by both Houses may be suspended for a period of ninety days on the written demand of two-fifths of the members of Dáil Eireann or of a majority of the members of Seanad Eireann presented to the President of the Executive Council not later than seven days from the day on which such a Bill shall have been so passed or deemed to have been so passed. Such a Bill shall in accordance with regulations to be made by the Oireachtas be submitted by Referendum to the decision of the people if demanded before the expiration of the ninety days either by a resolution of Seanad Eireann, or by a petition signed by not less than one-twentieth of the voters then on the register of voters, and the decision of the people by a majority of the votes recorded on such Referendum shall be conclusive. These provisions shall not apply to Money Bills or to such Bills as shall be declared by both Houses to be necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace, health or safety.

Article 48.

The Oireachtas may provide for the initiation by the people of proposals for laws or constitutional amendments. Should the Oireachtas fail to make such provision within two years, it shall on the petition of not less than seventy five thousand voters on the register, of whom not more than fifteen thousand shall be voters in any one constituency, either make such provision or submit the question to the people for decision in accordance with the ordinary regulations governing the Referendum. Any legislation passed by the Oireachtas providing for such Initiation by the people shall provide that

1. that such proposals may be initiated on a petition of fifty thousand voters on the register.
2. that if the Oireachtas rejects a proposal so initiated it shall be submitted to the people for decision in accordance with the ordinary regulations governing the referendum: and
3. that if the Oireachtas enacts a proposal so initiated such enactment shall be subject to the provisions respecting ordinary legislation or amendments of the Constitution as the case may be.

Cork boy 55

Ireland has a direct democracy movement FYI :cool:

http://www.directdemocracyireland.org/

recedite

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Something I was not aware of till very recently is the ability many states in the USA for the voters to recall elected officials in local and state government.

http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=16581

"Grounds for Recall; Act of malfeasance or misconduct while in office; violation of oath of office; failure to perform duties prescribed by law; willfully misused, converted, or misappropriated, without authority, public property or public funds entrusted to or associated with the elective office to which the official has been elected or appointed"

I was thinking Michael Lowry and Ivor Callely must be glad we don't have that Recall facility here in Ireland ....

But then it requires the original electorate to vote them out... but Ivor was never voted in. And Lowry always gets voted back in by his locals no matter how crooked he has been. :mad:

That system not much use to us then.