Sold a Faulty laptop 2 years ago, only offering to refund 1/2 the cost, Is that fair?

lil_tuts

Basically i bought a laptop from pc world 2 years ago which has just stopped working, as it turns out it was one of many laptops with a faulty graphics card. there are major class action law suits going on in the states over this at the moment. Pc world are offering to refund me 450 -500 euro. And i paid 1000 for it . Is this fair? I know i have it 2 years but i was sold to me faulty and they know it. I am in no way responsible for breaking it, should i be entitled to a full refund or be happy with 1/2 ?

Thanks

Cabaal

Thing is there's no such thing as class action suits here in Ireland.

Perhaps get all the evidence together to backup the fact that its a fault laptop with a known issue and then go back to the store and ask to deal with a manager, then issue formal complaint.

If it is not resol;ved then go to small claims with your evidence, costs 15e for that but your better off showing that you first attempted to resolve the matter usiung other means first.

I doubt PC World knew the laptops were faulty but none the less they could take up with the manufacturer especially if you have evidence.

Axe Rake

Take the 450-500 and call it a day. Laptops depreciate so fast it's no where near 1000 euro anymore.

upandcumming

What breed of laptop is it? Is it a VAIO?

crazyderk

they're basically offering you an exchange which is part of your entitlement, however they're exchanging it for a similar spec model which has a value now of 400-500 euro they're just letting you pick or add to the value

Varik

From what i understand the shop gets the choice of refund/replacement/repair, €500 will get a better laptop than €1000 did 2 years ago, i'm not sure how this partial refund which would amount to a better replacement laptop would be dealt with if you did bring it to the scc.

slimjimmc

Varik wrote: »

From what i understand the shop gets the choice of refund/replacement/repair, €500 will get a better laptop than €1000 did 2 years ago, i'm not sure how this partial refund which would amount to a better replacement laptop would be dealt with if you did bring it to the scc.

The shop can only choose which option to offer, but the consumer is not obliged to accept that offer and can request one of the other options. Neither party is required to accept the others choice, it's all up for negotiation.

P. Breathnach

slimjimmc wrote: »

The shop can only choose which option to offer, but the consumer is not obliged to accept that offer and can request one of the other options. Neither party is required to accept the others choice, it's all up for negotiation.

You can try negotiation, but the courts generally takes the position that if a seller offers one of the three classic remedies, it is unreasonable to refuse it. In essence, unless there are special circumstances, it is the seller's choice.

Rollercoaster

In my opinion you would be as well to take the 500 Euro and upgrade your laptop. I bought a desktop a few years ago with Windows ME for over 1300 Euro. It works as well as it did when new but it hardly has any value now! (PM me if anyone wants to make me an offer for the desktop complete with monitor, keyboard & mouse )

Good luck with your decision

jor el

lil_tuts wrote: »

Pc world are offering to refund me 450 -500 euro. And i paid 1000 for it . Is this fair?

Yes, extremely fair. It probably isn't even worth that much at this stage.

doctorg

For reading your problem I guessing its a Dell with a nivida graphic card?
If it is the dell I would suggest you contact dell first as they would repair or replace the laptop free of cost.

TouchingVirus

Or a HP/Compaq. There's a recall out there for certain models of those laptops with faulty nvidia chips. As doctorg said, check with your manufacturer if you want to first.

Personally I'd take the €500 and buy a new one. You'll get a better spec'd laptop now for that money than your €1000 got you two years ago.

doctorg

Tbh you would get a basic laptop of Dell which isn't an i processor but about 2.2 ghZ 2 GB ram and 250gb HD
It would help if you told us your specs so we could help guide you!

Dazzler80

I see you got your reply already on the Nvidiadefects forum..
I was gonna point you that way.. Had my 2 cents written, but, as you've already been answered, i'll leave it. :-)

jimmycrackcorm

So OP, you got 2 years use out of the laptop. If you are looking to get the equivalent for your laptop now then 4-500 sounds fair as a replacement value to get the equivalent new spec.

foggy_lad

But surely it is about the price paid two years ago and whether the op thinks they got €500 worth of use from the laptop in the two years? Not what the same laptop would cost today as it probably can't be bought anymore?

ssmith6287

Your not entitled to anything as the laptop is out of warranty, If PC World are offering you a laptop worth 4 - €500 then snap their hand off.

If it was in warranty and the problem started within 28 days thenyou are entitled to a refund, outside of that the shop can offer you a replacement or repair.

If it is a known fault then you should take it up with the manufacturer, Im guessing HP

BostonB

This effected a whole range of laptops, from Apple, Dell HP, pretty much them all. Anything with a 8xxx nivida chipset, 8400, 8600 at the time. Nivida wouldn't admit the fault, and a lot of the manufacters kept selling laptops with these chips even after the fault was known.

A lot of the manufacturers extended their warranties by an extra year to cover this. So check you are covered by that.

Personally after two years of use, and deprecation, I think 500 is fair. After 3 or 4 years most laptops are pretty much worth nothing.

lil_tuts

all sorted guys, the shop is responsible BTW not the manufacturer , my contract is with them and i have something like 5 - 6 years to sort that out if they sold it to me faulty (sale of goods act) I'm taking the 500 euro glad its sorted they were aware of the faults don't know why they werent recalled ! Btw if anyone has a NVIDIA graphics card i would check if you have the affected model ...
www.nvidiadefect.com

Rafloution

Jesus get to the small claims court. They are liable to refund replace or repair giving you 500 quid doesn't fit into any of them.
They are admitting liability offering half just trying to save a few quid.

15 quid fee and the court decides...do it.

None of this warranty lark that people spout when they know nothing. If the retailer thought they could get away with paying nothing they would. They know they are responsible full stop

phill106

BostonB wrote: »

A lot of the manufacturers extended their warranties by an extra year to cover this. So check you are covered by that.

Any links regarding that? I have a hp laptop with one of those cards and it gets quite hot using it.

lil_tuts

doctorg wrote: »

For reading your problem I guessing its a Dell with a nivida graphic card?
If it is the dell I would suggest you contact dell first as they would repair or replace the laptop free of cost.

Nope its a Packard Bell but i know dell were affected as well along with Hp and Sony as well as others

lil_tuts

Dazzler80 wrote: »

I see you got your reply already on the Nvidiadefects forum..
I was gonna point you that way.. Had my 2 cents written, but, as you've already been answered, i'll leave it. :-)

That Forum was so helpful god bless who ever set it up !

lil_tuts

phill106 wrote: »

Any links regarding that? I have a hp laptop with one of those cards and it gets quite hot using it.

Yep here are some :
http://www.nvidiadefect.com/

http://apcmag.com/nvidia_disaster_thousands_of_gpus_faulty.htm

Also if you google Nvidia defect you will get a lot of info on it.

BrianD

Rafloution wrote: »

Jesus get to the small claims court. They are liable to refund replace or repair giving you 500 quid doesn't fit into any of them.
They are admitting liability offering half just trying to save a few quid.

15 quid fee and the court decides...do it.

None of this warranty lark that people spout when they know nothing. If the retailer thought they could get away with paying nothing they would. They know they are responsible full stop

I don't recall the OP stating that the reason that the laptop stopped working was the graphics cards. The only known fact is that it has a graphics card that is known to be faulty. He would have to prove that it was down to the fault and nothing else that he id - mishandling, adding of other hardware, software etc etc.

The offer is good take it!

axer

A Seller is fully entitled to offer a partial refund when goods have been used for some time before a fault develops. The buyer is fully entitled to reject this but in many cases it is preferable than a replacement especially with something like a laptop.

astrofool

lil_tuts wrote: »

all sorted guys, the shop is responsible BTW not the manufacturer , my contract is with them and i have something like 5 - 6 years to sort that out if they sold it to me faulty (sale of goods act) I'm taking the 500 euro glad its sorted they were aware of the faults don't know why they werent recalled ! Btw if anyone has a NVIDIA graphics card i would check if you have the affected model ...
www.nvidiadefect.com

They weren't recalled because there wasn't really a fix for them, other than run the fan faster (makes it fail slower) or just put a new chip in (which would eventually fail, and this would only be if it wasn't soldered straight to the motherboard).

nVidia paid out a lot of money for extra warranties/RMA, but they knew there wasn't a fix, yet continued to sell them.

Similar thing happened with the IBM Desk(Death)Star years ago, spelled an end to IBM in the hard drive market.

BostonB

phill106 wrote: »

Any links regarding that? I have a hp laptop with one of those cards and it gets quite hot using it.

Sorry no. Most decent gfx cards (especially in laptops) get hot. That in itself is not unusual. These specific ones with the fault seem to fail randomly. I dunno how much a new bios, that runs the fan more, or temp monitoring really helps. You've nothing to lose by trying, I guess.

I do nothing special with mine, and its lasted 3 yrs. I don't game as much as others though. It doesn't have this flaw but the gfx failing is a common error is laptops with decent gfx cards.

whiterebel

ssmith6287 wrote: »

Your not entitled to anything as the laptop is out of warranty, If PC World are offering you a laptop worth 4 - €500 then snap their hand off.

If it was in warranty and the problem started within 28 days thenyou are entitled to a refund, outside of that the shop can offer you a replacement or repair.

If it is a known fault then you should take it up with the manufacturer, Im guessing HP

Could you be any more wrong with that post? Maybe you should look up what a consumers entitlements are under law before you repeat that kind of rubbish

Ah, I see from another post on another thread you used to work for Harvey Norman. That explains it.

ssmith6287

whiterebel wrote: »

Could you be any more wrong with that post? Maybe you should look up what a consumers entitlements are under law before you repeat that kind of rubbish

Ah, I see from another post on another thread you used to work for Harvey Norman. That explains it.

Whats the consumer right that says a person whos laptop is out of warranty is entitled to a refund?

axer

ssmith6287 wrote: »

Whats the consumer right that says a person whos laptop is out of warranty is entitled to a refund?

The Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980

P. Breathnach

axer wrote: »

A Seller is fully entitled to offer a partial refund when goods have been used for some time before a fault develops. The buyer is fully entitled to reject this but in many cases it is preferable than a replacement especially with something like a laptop.

A seller is entitled to make any proposal to settle a claim. What really counts is whether or not it is reasonable and, if it comes to the crunch, if the courts would deem it reasonable.

The courts will generally accept that any one of repair, replacement, or full refund is reasonable, and it would be silly to refuse any of these and proceed to court, because you would be in serious danger of losing your case.

They might also accept that a part-refund is reasonable where the purchaser has got substantial value out of the purchase, or where the part-refund is sufficient to cover the cost of a replacement (as seems to be the case here). Obviously, there will be difficult calls. Might OP have been persuaded that €400 was enough?

[In fairness, I should tell you that the only time I had a problem with anything bought from Harvey Norman, they responded properly.]

ssmith6287

whiterebel wrote: »

Could you be any more wrong with that post? Maybe you should look up what a consumers entitlements are under law before you repeat that kind of rubbish

Ah, I see from another post on another thread you used to work for Harvey Norman. That explains it.

Completely irrelevant, FYI they are an excellent employer who look after their staff and keep alot of irish people in a job, alot of whom dont work directly for HN.

Just had a read through the rights, couldn't find any section where an out of warranty product should be replaced. I hope your not mixing a warranty and a guarentee up??

BostonB

I think theres a difference between something that breaks and something with a design flaw. Regardless if in or out of warranty.

slimjimmc

BostonB wrote: »

I think theres a difference between something that breaks and something with a design flaw. Regardless if in or out of warranty.

If by "breaks" you mean a manufacturing defect then there's no difference between it and a design defect as far as consumer law is concerned. It comes under the umbrellas of "fit for purpose" and "merchantable quality". You don't even need to have a defect if the item sold to you didn't do what you bought it for (having first explained your requirements before purchase).

If you dropped it or otherwise misused then yes there is a difference and consumer law can't help you there.

BostonB

Let me rephrase that. A design flaw that can't be permanently fixed.

Resale value is obviously effected.

axer

ssmith6287 wrote: »

Just had a read through the rights, couldn't find any section where an out of warranty product should be replaced. I hope your not mixing a warranty and a guarentee up??

It depends which way you are using the terms in a legal sense or in the common use sense. In the common use sense a warranty and guarantee are the exact same. In the legal sense a warranty has nothing to do with a manufacturer's warranty/guarantee.

A manufacturer's warranty/guarantee only adds extra rights to the statutory rights already afforded to consumers. The manufacturer only needs to included specific information in their warranty/guarentee by law and after that can have any terms they like in it (although they must honour whatever terms they set) - they do not have to do anything more than what they offer in their manufacturer's warranty/guarantee. Warrantys are not necesssary unless a consumer chooses to use the warranty for reasons such as the business that sold the product has since gone out of business etc.

S14

(2) Where the seller sells goods in the course of a business there is an implied condition that the goods supplied under the contract are of merchantable quality, except that there is no such condition—

( a ) as regards defects specifically drawn to the buyer's attention before the contract is made, or

( b ) if the buyer examines the goods before the contract is made, as regards defects which that examination ought to have revealed.

(3) Goods are of merchantable quality if they are as fit for the purpose or purposes for which goods of that kind are commonly bought and as durable as it is reasonable to expect having regard to any description applied to them, the price (if relevant) and all the other relevant circumstances, and any reference in this Act to unmerchantable goods shall be construed accordingly.

axer

BostonB wrote: »

Let me rephrase that. A design flaw that can't be permanently fixed.

Resale value is obviously effected.

I'm sure I understand how you define "design flaw". If I purchase a laptop that has a design flaw that causes it to fail after 2 years then I would consider that the laptop was not fit for purpose and not of merchantable quality.

ssmith6287

Look at MG ZR and older Fiat Punto's, Alfa Romeos. All sold with the design flaw of a sh1te head gasket .... no wait its not a design flaw its just a poor design, yet people bought em because they look good. When head gasket goes then they dont have comeback because its outside of warranty....... Same thing applies for a laptop, a customer would come into me looking for a laptop, We could have a real cheap one with glitter and bells, instead of saying yeah its the bees knees like most others would, id point out that yeah you have a weak cpu, the motherboards older then my mother, theres better graphics on a stick drawing... like the salesman cant be blamed if that comes back in 13-14 months barely working. I understand there was a flaw with the graphics card but if there was a major flaw like evryone here is saying itd happen within a year or after 3 so i'm thinking you just got unlucky with your laptop and the fact they giving u a replacement is very generous.

ssmith6287

Most shops will have on their receipt that WARRANTY applies.

In Leymans terms.

A warranty will cover you if somewthing fails on your computer, similar to insurance but wont cover something if it is the users fault e.g liquid, damage, software

If it says we guarentee this computer wont break then they are basically telling you it wont break, if it does you are fully entitled to a free laptop.

axer

ssmith6287 wrote: »

a customer would come into me looking for a laptop, We could have a real cheap one with glitter and bells, instead of saying yeah its the bees knees like most others would, id point out that yeah you have a weak cpu, the motherboards older then my mother, theres better graphics on a stick drawing... like the salesman cant be blamed if that comes back in 13-14 months barely working. I understand there was a flaw with the graphics card but if there was a major flaw like evryone here is saying itd happen within a year or after 3 so i'm thinking you just got unlucky with your laptop and the fact they giving u a replacement is very generous.

Price and other factors are taken into account with regards durability, fit for purpose and merchantable quality. Luck doesn't come into it - nobody is buying from a lucky dip.

axer

ssmith6287 wrote: »

Most shops will have on their receipt that WARRANTY applies.

In Leymans terms.

A warranty will cover you if somewthing fails on your computer, similar to insurance but wont cover something if it is the users fault e.g liquid, damage, software

If it says we guarentee this computer wont break then they are basically telling you it wont break, if it does you are fully entitled to a free laptop.

Firstly the issue is not with the warranty/guarantee here as they are irrelevant as the problem is covered by the sale of goods and supply of services act 1980.

Secondly a guarantee and warranty are effectively the same thing since it is the terms that ultimately matter. Since the terms can be what the manufacturer want them to be (since there is no obligation to supply a warranty/guarantee in the first place) then it doesn't matter what you call the piece of paper.

cancercowboy

I'd say if they are going to refund you they would have to refund you the purchase price. You should ask for a replacement laptop with the same or similar specifications.

You may want to take it up with he manufacturer and quote the E.U. legislation that states all goods sold have to be guaranteed against manufacturer fault for 2 years regardless of the warranty sold.

On a side note I had my iPhone repaired recently at the Tech Fixers in Rathmines while I was there a lady had just gotten a laptop repaired with this same problem. Apparently they reheat the graphics chip on the motherboard and the resolves the issue. I think they only charged her like €80. So I'm thinking you could get your laptop fixed and have that €500 from PC World in your pocket.

phil1nj

ssmith6287 wrote: »

Most shops will have on their receipt that WARRANTY applies.

In Leymans terms.

A warranty will cover you if somewthing fails on your computer, similar to insurance but wont cover something if it is the users fault e.g liquid, damage, software

If it says we guarentee this computer wont break then they are basically telling you it wont break, if it does you are fully entitled to a free laptop.

The warranty offered by a shop is in addition to the protection offered to consumers under the sale of goods act. It does not supercede it. If a product fails after the shop warranty period expires, the consumer is still entitled to request that the retailer (or whomever they had the sales contract with) rectify the situation by offering either a repair, replacement or refund (if the fault was present at the time of purchase unbeknownst to the consumer). If the retailer refuses, then thats when the small claims court get involved.

On a side note, I had a similar experience with a laptop this year and it panned out exactly the same way, a hardly used 2 year old Compaq laptop developed a fault which was down to the the graphics chip. This was bought in PC World and when I went to the store to ask for a refund/free repair I was told that once the 12 month warranty/gurantee expired , the retailer did not have to do anything about it and I would have to pay for the repairs.

Quoting the sales of goods and services act was like speaking greek to an ostrich as not one member of staff or even the manager calimed to know of the existance or purpose of the act. I was fobbed off at every turn until I went to the small claims court with an independent engineers report. Once this was submitted I was offered half the cost of the laptop plus the cost of the report.

I purchased a better spec'd laptop with the money and sold the defective one for spares. All in all I was down about 100Euro on the transaction which is what it probably would have cost to have PC World diagnose the problem anyway.

upandcumming

I have a VAIO VGN-FZ21E and my NVIDIA graphics card went bust a year after my warranty ended. I got onto Sony Support and they sent a courier out, fixed it, and sent it back within 7 days. Brilliant.

ssmith6287

upandcumming wrote: »

I have a VAIO VGN-FZ21E and my NVIDIA graphics card went bust a year after my warranty ended. I got onto Sony Support and they sent a courier out, fixed it, and sent it back within 7 days. Brilliant.

Wow that is brilliant, Was it free?

BostonB

cancercowboy wrote: »

...
On a side note I had my iPhone repaired recently at the Tech Fixers in Rathmines while I was there a lady had just gotten a laptop repaired with this same problem. Apparently they reheat the graphics chip on the motherboard and the resolves the issue. I think they only charged her like €80. So I'm thinking you could get your laptop fixed and have that €500 from PC World in your pocket.

Thats not a permanent fix. It will fail again. Pretty all these gfx cards will fail. Its a design flaw that effect all these chipsets. You may avoid it for longer if it doesn't get hot too often...

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1036374/what-nvidia
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1028703/all-nvidia-g84-g86s-bad

TouchingVirus

ssmith6287 wrote: »

Wow that is brilliant, Was it free?

Of course it was free. And it isn't brilliant, they most likely just replaced it with the same model which will fail in another two years. Quick fix for the customer, but it's only prolonging the inevitable

lil_tuts

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Of course it was free. And it isn't brilliant, they most likely just replaced it with the same model which will fail in another two years. Quick fix for the customer, but it's only prolonging the inevitable

Afraid i have to agree , they most probably just replaced it with another graphics card that is defective i have heard of people bringing the so called repaired laptop home and it breaking the next day. I wasn't going to take a repair if they offered it for that reason.

BostonB

The only way to avoid this issue is to get a laptop without one of those gfx chipsets.

lil_tuts

BostonB wrote: »

The only way to avoid this issue is to get a laptop without one of those gfx chipsets.

no more Nvidia for me ... still waiting for them to ring me about my refund i hope i dont have to go ringing the Uk they were meant to be in touch by today for Bank Details