Irish Rail

Theasal1234

Hi all! Im just looking for advice in regards to a wrongful fine which I received during the week from Irish Rail. I boarded a Cork bound train from Heuston Station. As the train was approaching Mallow,the ticket inspectors(Revenue protection) were checking tickets. I produced my ticket with my student card and on inspection I was told I had an invalid ticket as it was purchased a week prior to the date of travel. However I stated that I was intending to travel on the date of purchase but due to an emergency(housemate broke his leg,the clown ) I had to hurry home. The ticket inspector told me that i should have got a refund for it before I left but I told her the idea of an emergency is that you get to the incident as quick as possible,so therfore I had no time. Plus I never even realised you had to buy the ticket on the date of travel. Sure the ticket validators accepted my ticket is that not valid enough. Anyway,she proceeded to confiscate my ticket and issue me with a 135 euro fine, I was unhappy to say the least!!! Im just wondering when I appeal,does it automatically become an issue for the courts then??Because I'd nearly rather pay the fine than go through the court system

aidan_walsh

Not really a wrongful fine, more you not understanding how it works I'm afraid.

Jarren

You must have a ticket on the train
Everyone must have a ticket to travel by train.

If you do not have a valid ticket for travel we will charge you a fixed penalty fare of up to €150. If your ticket requires an ID card, you must have that card with you when travelling. If you don't have the ID card with you, we will charge you a fixed penalty of up to €150.


You must have a ticket at the automatic exit-entrance validation gate

There are automatic ticket validation gates in some rail stations and we intend to introduce them into more stations soon. You must have a valid rail ticket to enter or exit through these gates. If you don't have a valid ticket when you are exiting through these gates, you will be liable to pay a penalty fare.

http://www.irishrail.ie/home/passenger_charter.asp

Theasal1234

Well if im not understanding the situation correctly,why dont you enlighten me so. In basic law,the main principle is that you are innocent until proven guilty, In IrishRail's world you are guilty until proven innocent! I was made to feel like a crook in front of everyone that day. I've been a frequent user of Irish Rails services for the last 3 years and have every single ticket receipt to prove that I always pay for any goods or services in full. When you think about it, I had paid in full for the journey down and I was given a fine for doing so. At the end of the day, the ticket was still in date as it was only a week old.

penexpers

It wasn't in date - student tickets are usually issued to be only valid for outward travel on the day of purchase (unless you specify otherwise).

The inspector was right - you should have gotten a refund/exchange on the unused ticket and asked for a new one for your new date of travel. There would have been no charge for this, as I understand it.

Theasal1234

Thats a bit more helpful now,but am I on my own here when I say that I think that is a ridiculous condition because its not as if I shafted them on the price of the fare or anything. If they refuse my appeal, do I automatically go to court in that situation?

Blackjack

Whats to say you had not already used that ticket the day you had bought it?.

As per an earlier post,

"If you do not have a valid ticket for travel we will charge you a fixed penalty fare of up to €150."

Up to you to have the valid ticket, not up to Irish Rail to prove anything more if you can't produce one.

penexpers

Ridiculous condition or not, you accepted it when you bought the ticket.

If you continually refuse to pay the fine, then yes it will end up in court one day.

Theasal1234

Not to sound petulant or anything,but the fact that it was not stamped and that the ticket validator accepted the ticket should be proof enough. I will appeal it but I want to know that if my appeal is refused can I just pay the fine then or do I have to go to court as a result of appealing?

Blackjack

Theasal1234 wrote: »

Not to sound petulant or anything,but the fact that it was not stamped and that the ticket validator accepted the ticket should be proof enough. I will appeal it but I want to know that if my appeal is refused can I just pay the fine then or do I have to go to court as a result of appealing?

But you didn't have a valid ticket, did you?

penexpers

If you appeal and the appeal fails, you will be given a chance to pay the fine again.

User Friendly

This is bloody ridiculous.... you had a ticket paid for,but because it wasnt purchased on the date of travel,from a man with a hat at the train station these people can charge you 130euro!....... because you didnt know their rules,ah man,if this was me......... id be going to court with them! gladly at that.:mad:

iF the District court Judge hears your story,i cant imagine he will be too happy with the jobsworths clogging up his courts with needless cases.
anyway,best of luck with this,the more sensible option i guess would be to just pay the fine,but the above was jsut for me.GL;)

tricky D

In this country we have stupid bylaws like this, along with the other one of having to use 10 journey tickets within a certain timeframe. Unfortunately you've been caught out by this absurdity. I've kept unused parts of multiple journey tickets and reused them at least a year later in Germany, where quite rightly, they don't care as effectively they've got money in advance. In Germany this is a good thing, but not in Ireland. Guess which one has the better service.

dearg lady

User Friendly wrote: »

This is bloody ridiculous.... you had a ticket paid for,but because it wasnt purchased on the date of travel,from a man with a hat at the train station these people can charge you 130euro!....... because you didnt know their rules,ah man,if this was me......... id be going to court with them! gladly at that.:mad:

iF the District court Judge hears your story,i cant imagine he will be too happy with the jobsworths clogging up his courts with needless cases.
anyway,best of luck with this,the more sensible option i guess would be to just pay the fine,but the above was jsut for me.GL;)

You might think it's a ridiculous law, but Irish Rail do have the law on their side, I wouldn't encourage goin to Court, OP would most likely end up with a higher fine.

OP, as I'm, aware you can appeal directly with Irish Rail, but amn't 100% sure, could you not just ring them and check to be sure?

It does seem a bit OTT, but as other posters have said, you didn't actually have a valid ticket for that day.

Jehuty42

Don't go to court, it's open and shut. Their by-laws require you to use a ticket on the day you buy it, and you didn't. You accepted those laws by buying the ticket. You would lose in court and have to pay the fine+legal costs.

Just pay the fine. I know it's a stupid rule and the fine is a burden, but you don't have any other option at the minute. I feel sorry for you and wish the rules were different, but they're not.

wmpdd3

It written on the ticket that it is valid only for the dates printed on the ticket.
Otherwise would buy 20 tickets in Dec to use in Jan when the fare increases.

dudara

Moved to Commuting & Transport

dudara

foggy_lad

i saw a poster on the dart today stating that irish rail have a standard penalty fare of €100 since the end of march so you should not be fined any more than this amount and this then entitles you to continue your journey as it is a penalty FARE so is in fact a new ticket issued by the revenue collectors.

ArmaniJeanss

I normally don't have a lot of sympathy for the 'wrongful fine' thread starters.

The ones who say 'I always have a valid ticket', but 'there was a queue and it would have meant me missing the train' or 'I thought you could pay at the other end' etc etc.

This one seems different. He/she had purchased a ticket, it was only invalid because of some strange regulation, and most crucially it seems the machines* in Heuston station allowed him/her to validate the ticket as their software regarded it as valid.

* Is this what you mean by 'the ticket validators accepted my ticket'.
If so I think you have a reasonable case to fight this.

corktina

Pay the fine "under protest" and write to IE explaining the full story and asking them to make a refund ex gratia.
Include copies of your receipts for all the other journeys to back up your story of an honest mistake. I wouldnt recomend going to court if you can help it.

Ham'nd'egger

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I normally don't have a lot of sympathy for the 'wrongful fine' thread starters.

The ones who say 'I always have a valid ticket', but 'there was a queue and it would have meant me missing the train' or 'I thought you could pay at the other end' etc etc.

This one seems different. He/she had purchased a ticket, it was only invalid because of some strange regulation, and most crucially it seems the machines* in Heuston station allowed him/her to validate the ticket as their software regarded it as valid.

* Is this what you mean by 'the ticket validators accepted my ticket'.
If so I think you have a reasonable case to fight this.

That's not quite how it happened here though as it's more simple than has been made out.

OP bought a ticket for one specified journey and then used it on another journey. OP didn't have a ticket allowing them travel on the train on which they were on so ticket machine or not so they were not traveling with the right ticket for that train; this is not a strange regulation whatsoever.

While you refer to the ticket machine as validating the ticket, if I purchased a ticket from Heuston to Parkwest today it would be validated as readily as a Heuston to Tralee ticket would be. There is still the onus on the passenger to use their ticket for the correct train and the correct journey as they purchased.

AlekSmart

That's not quite how it happened here though as it's more simple than has been made out.

The divil is ALWAYS in the detail....which sadly enough we do not appear to think applies to US.....If you are purchasing anything other than a "Standard" single or return ticket,then familiarize yourself with the small-print....That`s about it really ?

Pineapple stu

How many of these unfair fine threads has been made by students?

Going by the opening post it sounds that the OP was trying to pull a fast one and knew well that the ticket was invalid but thought that they would get away with it.
You wouldnt pay for a cinema ticket for a showing of a film tonight but not go and try your luck with the same ticket next week would you and give a sob story when caught out?

The Stroller

foggy_lad wrote: »

i saw a poster on the dart today stating that irish rail have a standard penalty fare of €100 since the end of march so you should not be fined any more than this amount and this then entitles you to continue your journey as it is a penalty FARE so is in fact a new ticket issued by the revenue collectors.

It is known a penalty notice on Commuter and Intercity services.You will also be liable for the fare. On DART it is known as a penalty fare. There are two seperate Revenue Protection Units on Irish Rail, one for DART and one for Intercity/Commuter.

Theasal1234

With all due respect,I can't see how I was trying to pull 'a fast one' and I believe that if I were to go to court over this situation that common sense would prevail and the fine would be withdrawn. Irishrail seem to emphasise the fact that it is a student MONTHLY return from the date of purchase which is completely misleading. On reading the bye-laws of Irish Rail(which were almost impossible to find by the way) I have accepted the fact that I broke a condition of travel and was wrong in there terms however I do NOT accept the validity of this condition. Also, on reading of the bye-laws, if I had refunded my ticket on the date of purchase I would have only received 80% of the fare, im not a tightwad but the fact that they receive 20% automatically is proof that the ''revenue protection units'' function is to gain easy capital rather then to punish those who genuinely try to dodge a fare. Another reason I believe I was mislead, was the fact that the ticket validator(machine) accepted my ticket rather then prevent me from accessing the train, if it were a member of staff validating tickets then this fine would have been avoided. I feel a warning system would be more appropriate in cases similiar to mine as Irishrail has received due payment for the service.

foggy_lad

Theasal1234 wrote: »

With all due respect,I can't see how I was trying to pull 'a fast one' and I believe that if I were to go to court over this situation that common sense would prevail and the fine would be withdrawn. Irishrail seem to emphasise the fact that it is a student MONTHLY return from the date of purchase which is completely misleading. On reading the bye-laws of Irish Rail(which were almost impossible to find by the way) I have accepted the fact that I broke a condition of travel and was wrong in there terms however I do NOT accept the validity of this condition. Also, on reading of the bye-laws, if I had refunded my ticket on the date of purchase I would have only received 80% of the fare, im not a tightwad but the fact that they receive 20% automatically is proof that the ''revenue protection units'' function is to gain easy capital rather then to punish those who genuinely try to dodge a fare. Another reason I believe I was mislead, was the fact that the ticket validator(machine) accepted my ticket rather then prevent me from accessing the train, if it were a member of staff validating tickets then this fine would have been avoided. I feel a warning system would be more appropriate in cases similiar to mine as Irishrail has received due payment for the service.

they recieved payment only for your travelling the outward journey on the date the ticket was purchased so that portion of the ticket was invalid when you decided to travel at a later date and how do irish rail know you didnt alreasy use the ticket on the date of purchase but somehow not get it validated? the rules are there to be followed by all and students or those encountering emergencies are not exempt.

penexpers

Theasal1234 wrote: »

I do NOT accept the validity of this condition.

Sorry, but by purchasing a ticket you did accept the validity of this condition.

Theasal1234

I don't see how me being a student is an issue in this case,nor, do I think I should receive special treatment and I stated that on reading of the terms and conitions that I had realised that I had broken a condition but I did not accept the validity of it. Well, you always have to validate your ticket through the machine when entering and leaving Heuston, and also inspectors check tickets at least 2 or 3 times on the service I use, so there would be a stamp on the ticket.

Ham'nd'egger

Theasal1234 wrote: »

I don't see how me being a student is an issue in this case,nor, do I think I should receive special treatment and I stated that on reading of the terms and conitions that I had realised that I had broken a condition but I did not accept the validity of it. Well, you always have to validate your ticket through the machine when entering and leaving Heuston, and also inspectors check tickets at least 2 or 3 times on the service I use, so there would be a stamp on the ticket.

You did not have a valid ticket to travel on the train you were on and you were caught out; it's pretty clear cut as cases go.

AlekSmart

With all due respect,I can't see how I was trying to pull 'a fast one' and I believe that if I were to go to court over this situation that common sense would prevail and the fine would be withdrawn.

With an equal amount of due respect to Theasal1234,it would seem that the battle lines are indeed drawn.

Irrespective of how much support or otherwise materializes on these Boards,if Theasal1234 feels he/she can convince a court of their right,then let them at it I say.

There are some benefits to this approach not least of which would be a wealth of case law which would clear the (for some) muddy waters.

The downside is that the court would find in full for Irish Rail and award the case plus costs (:eek:) to them.

Let it on I say....:)

As for Pineapple Stu`s observation....

How many of these unfair fine threads has been made by students?

Going by the opening post it sounds that the OP was trying to pull a fast one and knew well that the ticket was invalid but thought that they would get away with it.

Although the OP sez the Student issue is of no relevance here,I tend to agree with Pineapple Stu that there are waaay too many student concessionary fare issues for comfort.

What intrigues me is the numbers of Third-Level students who experience seemingly constant problems with every mode of Public Transport which offers a concessionary fare.

Now whilst I`m prepared to accept a certain level of "Trying it on" I`m also rather bemused at the numbers of "Students" who lack...emmm...a certain base level of...Common Sense ?....Cop-On..? or some other atrribute once considered a pre-requisite for further education.

In the context of a Country which finds itself now Fcuxkedd,it`s even more depressing to think of the calibre of those expected to lead the resurrection shuffle of Éire Teo,if these continuing examples of disaffection or disregard become the norm

Theasal1234

AlekSmart wrote: »

With an equal amount of due respect to Theasal1234,it would seem that the battle lines are indeed drawn.

Irrespective of how much support or otherwise materializes on these Boards,if Theasal1234 feels he/she can convince a court of their right,then let them at it I say.

There are some benefits to this approach not least of which would be a wealth of case law which would clear the (for some) muddy waters.

The downside is that the court would find in full for Irish Rail and award the case plus costs (:eek:) to them.

Let it on I say....:)

As for Pineapple Stu`s observation....

Although the OP sez the Student issue is of no relevance here,I tend to agree with Pineapple Stu that there are waaay too many student concessionary fare issues for comfort.

What intrigues me is the numbers of Third-Level students who experience seemingly constant problems with every mode of Public Transport which offers a concessionary fare.

Now whilst I`m prepared to accept a certain level of "Trying it on" I`m also rather bemused at the numbers of "Students" who lack...emmm...a certain base level of...Common Sense ?....Cop-On..? or some other atrribute once considered a pre-requisite for further education.

In the context of a Country which finds itself now Fcuxkedd,it`s even more depressing to think of the calibre of those expected to lead the resurrection shuffle of Éire Teo,if these continuing examples of disaffection or disregard become the norm

In terms of a BASIC level of common sense, that is gained over time,through experiences such as this and people apply this new found common sense to IrishRail and cease using the service!

As regards to the rant that there are too many student issues with public transport, I don't know if you have noticed but the majority of the demographic that use public transport are students as they can't afford private transport.

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

With an equal amount of due respect to Theasal1234,it would seem that the battle lines are indeed drawn.

Irrespective of how much support or otherwise materializes on these Boards,if Theasal1234 feels he/she can convince a court of their right,then let them at it I say.

There are some benefits to this approach not least of which would be a wealth of case law which would clear the (for some) muddy waters.

The downside is that the court would find in full for Irish Rail and award the case plus costs (:eek:) to them.

Let it on I say....:)

As for Pineapple Stu`s observation....

Although the OP sez the Student issue is of no relevance here,I tend to agree with Pineapple Stu that there are waaay too many student concessionary fare issues for comfort.

What intrigues me is the numbers of Third-Level students who experience seemingly constant problems with every mode of Public Transport which offers a concessionary fare.

Now whilst I`m prepared to accept a certain level of "Trying it on" I`m also rather bemused at the numbers of "Students" who lack...emmm...a certain base level of...Common Sense ?....Cop-On..? or some other atrribute once considered a pre-requisite for further education.

In the context of a Country which finds itself now Fcuxkedd,it`s even more depressing to think of the calibre of those expected to lead the resurrection shuffle of Éire Teo,if these continuing examples of disaffection or disregard become the norm

the boom is to blame for this absence of common sense where children are/were treated like kids for far longer than many would say is healthy, in my day we did not move into furnished apartments and houses like students of today have(paid for by parents)

we had nothing except a longing for the grant day to arrive so we could pay back the welfare officer and buy a few pints.

things come to easily to young people today and this thinking that mammy and daddy will pay if i screw up i hope lasts forever with the poor unfortunates:)

even when people living at home are working they might hand up €30-50 a week maybe 10% of their income but when i was working it was expected that around €40 would be handed over at home and sometimes more as it was the late 70's and early 80's when there was a real recession in full bloom!

Jehuty42

AlekSmart wrote: »

With an equal amount of due respect to Theasal1234,it would seem that the battle lines are indeed drawn.

Irrespective of how much support or otherwise materializes on these Boards,if Theasal1234 feels he/she can convince a court of their right,then let them at it I say.

There are some benefits to this approach not least of which would be a wealth of case law which would clear the (for some) muddy waters.

The downside is that the court would find in full for Irish Rail and award the case plus costs (:eek:) to them.

Let it on I say....:)

As for Pineapple Stu`s observation....

Although the OP sez the Student issue is of no relevance here,I tend to agree with Pineapple Stu that there are waaay too many student concessionary fare issues for comfort.

What intrigues me is the numbers of Third-Level students who experience seemingly constant problems with every mode of Public Transport which offers a concessionary fare.

Now whilst I`m prepared to accept a certain level of "Trying it on" I`m also rather bemused at the numbers of "Students" who lack...emmm...a certain base level of...Common Sense ?....Cop-On..? or some other atrribute once considered a pre-requisite for further education.

In the context of a Country which finds itself now Fcuxkedd,it`s even more depressing to think of the calibre of those expected to lead the resurrection shuffle of Éire Teo,if these continuing examples of disaffection or disregard become the norm

As a student who likes to think he has some cop-on and has never had any problems using public transport, in finding the correct and valid tickets, in interpreting changes and alterations to timetables, I would like to apologise to m'learend bus driver friend for the tracksuited brigade he no doubt has the "pleasure" of conveying every morning. I would also like to assure him that not al students lack transport savvy.

AlekSmart

As a student who likes to think he has some cop-on and has never had any problems using public transport, in finding the correct and valid tickets, in interpreting changes and alterations to timetables, I would like to apologise to m'learend bus driver friend for the tracksuited brigade he no doubt has the "pleasure" of conveying every morning. I would also like to assure him that not al students lack transport savvy.

I`m not daring to suggest that all students lack Public Transport "savvy"...far from it.

However,in my daily toil I would suggest that those of Jehuty42`s mindset represent about 70% of my student throughput ( Anecdotal Warning !!!)

I would stress that my experiences are mainly third-level and perhaps more worryingly at Teacher Training College.

It is the remaining 30% which possess the ability to totally erase the benefits of the good preparation of the 70%.

10 boarding students,Regulars all,7 of whom have (GREAT VALUE !!) Student Ramblers...Zip Zip Zip......interspersed with 3 who have cash.....somewhere on their person...."erm....1.15 please"...where are you going ?....."Er..eh...oh..Just down the road..."....etc etc....by the time I have processed the 3 the good works of the 7 are negated...

Multiply the above scenario by say,4 busy stops,and the hugely scientific running times supplied by the Company are history.

I`m not suggesting anything of substance except that the observed level of preparedeness and general ability to get to the root of effective PT useage does not figure greatly in the Student Mind.

If anything, primary and secondary students appear to be somewhat better inclined,more aware,but perhaps that is due to some small form of imposed scholarly discipline which evaporates when "College" arrives ?

So Jehuty42,theres no requirement for apologies at all,and for sure not to me....If I was one of the 3 I`d be apoligizing to the assembled seated pasengers,silently clicking their tongues and scanning their watches as the drama unfolds up front.

I would however,commend you thoroughly for being one of the 70% and hope frevently that you`ll use your good endeavours to make it 80,90 and perhaps even 99%...Well done that Student..A++ all round

Oddly enough Theasal1234 makes an interesting observation here...

As regards to the rant that there are too many student issues with public transport, I don't know if you have noticed but the majority of the demographic that use public transport are students as they can't afford private transport.

I`m not certain that it`s Public Transport per se that the "Students" have issues with,I`m fearful that the PT element is only one visible issue.

I`m still noticing regular Student Customers now well into their semester/term who still pay cash to me twice a day like clockwork....I know from their regular travel pattern that a Student Rambler would save them considerable money,I have even suggested it....several times...to no avail....Resistance to change ?....anti establishmentarianism ?...who knows but it`s difficult to understand...?

Worth a Doctoral Thesis perhaps or some deeper study..?

dowlingm

AlekSmart wrote: »

I`m still noticing regular Student Customers now well into their semester/term who still pay cash to me twice a day like clockwork....I know from their regular travel pattern that a Student Rambler would save their mammies considerable money,I have even suggested it....several times...to no avail....Resistance to change ?....anti establishmentarianism ?...who knows but it`s difficult to understand...?

Fixed it for you

User Friendly

dearg lady wrote: »

You might think it's a ridiculous law, but Irish Rail do have the law on their side, I wouldn't encourage goin to Court, OP would most likely end up with a higher fine.

Only seeing your post now.......

Ermmm yes i do see it as a ridiculous law,ive stated this,

Point 2.... i dont believe i was questioning whether Irish Rail had or hadnt Law on their side.

Finally..... i too wouldnt encourage going to court,But if it were me,i would go to court for reasons stated in my previous post.
You have no way of predicting what,if any,of a fine a district judge would come to.

Jehuty42

AlekSmart wrote: »

I would however,commend you thoroughly for being one of the 70% and hope frevently that you`ll use your good endeavours to make it 80,90 and perhaps even 99%...Well done that Student..A++ all round

Excellent post as always, AlekSmart, but just to clear things up, I am in fact a Third-Level student, in my final year now! Though I must agree with your assessments, the ignorance of students to PT when they are one of the main demographics that use it is a bit unsettling.

Carawaystick

Maybe if the people saying that the IÉ ticket checkers are correct and the IÉ machines are incorrect could tell the rest of us where the terms and conditions of each and every ticket IÉ sell are freely available to intending customers before they purchase a ticket are???

Compared with Ireland's most successful public transport company which shows all their sneaky charges and gotchas before selling you a ticket.
http://www.ryanair.com/en/terms-and-conditions
http://www.ryanair.com/en/conditions/carriage/

Anyway to the OP, IÉ have to prove intent to secure a conviction, or have to show you knew what you were doing was wrong, which if what you tell us is true, and the machine accepted your ticket in Heuston, then it's would be very hard to prove.

search this board for the actual parts of the law in previous threads.

Victor

Bye-laws: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1984/en/si/0109.html

General terms and conditions: https://www.irishrail.ie/seat_reservation/terms_and_conditions.asp?thispage=12

Conditions of Carriage of Passengers and their Luggage: https://www.irishrail.ie/seat_reservation/ConditionsOfTravel.pdf

Booking service: http://www.irishrail.ie/home/terms_and_conditions.asp

Smart cards: https://www.irishrail.ie/smartcard/pages/termsAndConditions.html

Use of website: https://www.irishrail.ie/seat_reservation/web_terms_and_conditions.asp

charlemont

DO NOT pay the fine... all they want is the money, look, the prisons are full if you get a few days or whatever the default is for not paying a fine, you wont be kept in long, probably only long enough to get your details and your release forms.. :pac:

mickydoomsux

Victor wrote: »

Bye-laws: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1984/en/si/0109.html

General terms and conditions: https://www.irishrail.ie/seat_reservation/terms_and_conditions.asp?thispage=12

Conditions of Carriage of Passengers and their Luggage: https://www.irishrail.ie/seat_reservation/ConditionsOfTravel.pdf

Booking service: http://www.irishrail.ie/home/terms_and_conditions.asp

Smart cards: https://www.irishrail.ie/smartcard/pages/termsAndConditions.html

Use of website: https://www.irishrail.ie/seat_reservation/web_terms_and_conditions.asp

Also, most major stations will be able to give you a "Passengers Charter" booklet if you ask for it.

It contains information on tickets etc.

KC61

Customer Charter is here:
http://www.irishrail.ie/home/passenger_charter.asp

AlekSmart

Carawaystick posted..

.Search this board for the actual parts of the law in previous threads.

.

Good advice indeed,however proceeding along the Legal route in matters such as this can prove fraught,particularly for the Little-Man.

Whilst the District Justices will have due regard for the finer and higher points of Law,they are also well aware that they refree in the Bear-Pit where Queensbury Rules apply only in spirit.

Firstly,if you`re in contesting mood...Get a Solicitor !

By all means gird your loins for a Rumpole like appearance,but don`t be too surprised if the appearance is over in a flash and you sit in stunned silence with a conviction recorded along with a fine,whilst the queue of career "Ordinary Decent Criminals" jostle for your position in the dock.

The DJ will most probably find on the simpler elements of the Case before him/her.

Was the defendant in possession of the appropriate ticket for the journey ? No.

Most likely any mitigation will entail a speech from the dock which District Courts procedures tend not to encourage.

Conviction most likely,and your most welcome to appeal,which is where the going gets really expensive.


At this juncture I`d be inclined to click on Victors links and spend a relaxing early night in the leaba planning my way around those pesky rules,regulations and bye-laws.

Judgement Day

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Also, most major stations will be able to give you a "Passengers Charter" booklet if you ask for it.

It contains information on tickets etc.

And it's Bilingual too - so no excuses!

MOH

Theasal1234 wrote: »

With all due respect,I can't see how I was trying to pull 'a fast one' and I believe that if I were to go to court over this situation that common sense would prevail and the fine would be withdrawn. Irishrail seem to emphasise the fact that it is a student MONTHLY return from the date of purchase which is completely misleading. On reading the bye-laws of Irish Rail(which were almost impossible to find by the way) I have accepted the fact that I broke a condition of travel and was wrong in there terms however I do NOT accept the validity of this condition. Also, on reading of the bye-laws, if I had refunded my ticket on the date of purchase I would have only received 80% of the fare, im not a tightwad but the fact that they receive 20% automatically is proof that the ''revenue protection units'' function is to gain easy capital rather then to punish those who genuinely try to dodge a fare. Another reason I believe I was mislead, was the fact that the ticket validator(machine) accepted my ticket rather then prevent me from accessing the train, if it were a member of staff validating tickets then this fine would have been avoided. I feel a warning system would be more appropriate in cases similiar to mine as Irishrail has received due payment for the service.

Victor wrote: »

Bye-laws: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1984/en/si/0109.html

General terms and conditions: https://www.irishrail.ie/seat_reservation/terms_and_conditions.asp?thispage=12

Conditions of Carriage of Passengers and their Luggage: https://www.irishrail.ie/seat_reservation/ConditionsOfTravel.pdf

Booking service: http://www.irishrail.ie/home/terms_and_conditions.asp

Smart cards: https://www.irishrail.ie/smartcard/pages/termsAndConditions.html

Use of website: https://www.irishrail.ie/seat_reservation/web_terms_and_conditions.asp

This is really the crux of the issue. There's a string of different interrelated conditions all over the place. I'm generally pretty careful when I'm buying anything online and I'll check through the T+Cs, but unless you're a regular (and pretty determined) Irish Rail user, you're unlikely to find all the relevant restrictions before buying your ticket.

There's also the problem the Irish Rail regularly make claims as to conditions which actually have no basis - their whole "No ticket - no excuse" thing springs to mind, when there's perfectly valid circumstances in which you can board a train without a ticket.

KC61 wrote: »

Customer Charter is here:
http://www.irishrail.ie/home/passenger_charter.asp

The customer charter is worthless, it's Irish Rail's joke book. Pretty much every guarantee they make to their customer is broken on a regular basis.

Polar101

The fine seems a bit unreasonable, but I don't see what going to court over it would accomplish.

"Did you have a valid ticket?"
"No, but.."

I'm no legal expert, but it's difficult to see more than one possible outcome from the courts.

schemingbohemia

MOH wrote: »

their whole "No ticket - no excuse" thing springs to mind, when there's perfectly valid circumstances in which you can board a train without a ticket.

There's really only 1 - you got on at Broombridge - everything else is a variant on the "but the train was there and I arrived too late to buy a ticket".

dearg lady

User Friendly wrote: »

.
You have no way of predicting what,if any,of a fine a district judge would come to.

Obviously I can't predict the outcome, but am basing my assumption on many other cases of this nature.


Aleksmart puts it pretty well below....

AlekSmart wrote: »

By all means gird your loins for a Rumpole like appearance,but don`t be too surprised if the appearance is over in a flash and you sit in stunned silence with a conviction recorded along with a fine,whilst the queue of career "Ordinary Decent Criminals" jostle for your position in the dock.

The DJ will most probably find on the simpler elements of the Case before him/her.

Was the defendant in possession of the appropriate ticket for the journey ? No.

Most likely any mitigation will entail a speech from the dock which District Courts procedures tend not to encourage.

Conviction most likely,and your most welcome to appeal,which is where the going gets really expensive.


At this juncture I`d be inclined to click on Victors links and spend a relaxing early night in the leaba planning my way around those pesky rules,regulations and bye-laws.

Victor

In court, Irish Rail's conviction rate is something like 80-90%.

KC61

The key documents are the General Conditions of Carriage and the bye laws.

These cover most eventualities.

TheChrisD

schemingbohemia wrote: »

There's really only 1 - you got on at Broombridge - everything else is a variant on the "but the train was there and I arrived too late to buy a ticket".

Well, there's more stations than just Broombridge that are of the type...

But I do have a 2 - you have a Free Travel Pass and are trying to get on somewhere where the main ticket office is closed or unmanned, and the gate is left open.