Giving property back to bank

dolly47

We bought our apartment in 2006; after several incidents we were notified that the complex was not built right and is a fire hazard. There is no fire cert or insurance on the building whatsoever.

So far we have contacted solicitors, TDs, the council, the bank and no one seems to be helpful.

what can we do? what would you do??

Mr McBoatface

Where the solicitors you spoke to the solicitors who dealt with the purchase in the first place ?

daltonm

dolly47 wrote: »

We bought our apartment in 2006; after several incidents we were notified that the complex was not built right and is a fire hazard. There is no fire cert or insurance on the building whatsoever.

So far we have contacted solicitors, TDs, the council, the bank and no one seems to be helpful.

what can we do? what would you do??

When you say that no one seems to be helpful, what exactly do you mean?

Are you acting on behalf of the other residents in the complex?

dolly47

hello

basically when we were told that there was issues with the building, i approached the solicitor we bought the apartment through and they said there was nothing i could do, i have been trying to find out fromdifferent sources but even the citizens advice place where i live will not help becuase im going against a solictor.

what do you think.

Bullseye1

If you employed a solicitor to purchase the property they are responsible for ensuring that the title is correct. They are responsible.

daltonm

dolly47 wrote: »

hello

basically when we were told that there was issues with the building, i approached the solicitor we bought the apartment through and they said there was nothing i could do, i have been trying to find out fromdifferent sources but even the citizens advice place where i live will not help becuase im going against a solictor.

what do you think.

It's just a bit vague Dolly. Who told you that there were issues with the building?

dolly47

the council informed us that the building wasnt build correctly by the architects and builders. the architects obviously issued a false cert saying that the complex was habitable and thats why initially the council signed off the building as being ok. then later down the line, after a car burning out, it turns out that the complex has no fire cert (all fire doors- vents- windows are incorrect) and therefore the inusrance company withdrew the policy. so now if the building burns down we loose everything.and we still have to pay for our mortgage.

Mr McBoatface

dolly47 wrote: »

i approached the solicitor we bought the apartment through and they said there was nothing i could do

It could be a case of the solicitor covering his/her own ass. They may not have completed all the necessary checks. I suggest you speak to a third party solicitor outside of you locality, there is no point in getting advise from somebody who could be part responsible for your predicament. Your solicitor may be correct and may have done everything by the book but I'd get it confirmed by a third party.

Maybe consider opening a thread in the "Legal Discussion" forum and ask if there was some checks your solicitor should have done. http://boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=633

Best of luck OP

*Edit Just read the post above - If the architect falsified certs then I'd imagine they are responsible. I doubt your solicitor could have foreseen that.

audi4444

sue the person who passed it they have indeminity insurance thats wat its for.

dolly47

thanks guys for all the info;

johndaman66

Bullseye1 wrote: »

If your employed a solicitor to purchase the proper they are responsible for ensuring that the title is correct. They are responsible.

Would have thought from reading the OP's scenario that title to the property is not an issue or at least the issue. Rather that the appartments were not built to the relevant and necessary fire standards. Hence I would have thought that this falls back on the surveyor/ architect who signed off on the apartments...christ they seem to get paid enough for what they do.

ted1

you should change the title. It was never the banks. How can you give it back to them. You should chase up whoever signed off the work.

Blackjack

why is the title of this giving property back to bank?.

Did they sell it to the OP in the first place?

daltonm

dolly47 wrote: »

the council informed us that the building wasnt build correctly by the architects and builders. the architects obviously issued a false cert saying that the complex was habitable and thats why initially the council signed off the building as being ok. then later down the line, after a car burning out, it turns out that the complex has no fire cert (all fire doors- vents- windows are incorrect) and therefore the inusrance company withdrew the policy. so now if the building burns down we loose everything.and we still have to pay for our mortgage.

Wowser. :eek: Have a read of this law. If your building does not comply and the council are now aware of it then this is an issue for them.



http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/si/0128.html

(II) complies with the fire safety standards required by the Building Regulations;


Go and see a good solicitor - not the one you dealt with when you bought - remember also that you are not going against a solicitor.

Have you anything in writing from the Council? Have you anything in writing from your insurance company refusing cover?

dolly47

yes, we have received a letter from the council with the full list of the things that have to be completed (the list is about 8 pages long, list that was supposed to be finished before march 2010). and the title of the thread is what it is, because we are tired of all this and we would just walk away because paying a mortgage on a place that is at risk every day it is not healthy. i find it hard to believe that the bank can give you all the money without assessing the property.

Bullseye1

Was the car in the basement? With apartment complexes a Fire Safety Certicate application has to be applied for and issued before a commencement notice is sent in. Each county has a Fire Safety Authority which issue a Fire Safety Certificate based on information supplied by the Architect. They say they are they are under staffed and normally do not visit the properties unlke in the UK. This really needs to be rectified (especially with regards to Fire Safety).

Which authority are you dealing with?

MagicMarker

dolly47 wrote: »

yes, we have received a letter from the council with the full list of the things that have to be completed (the list is about 8 pages long, list that was supposed to be finished before march 2010). and the title of the thread is what it is, because we are tired of all this and we would just walk away because paying a mortgage on a place that is at risk every day it is not healthy. i find it hard to believe that the bank can give you all the money without assessing the property.

Why would the bank asses the property? Your issue is not with the bank.

Speak to a different solicitor to see what your options are.

daltonm

dolly47 wrote: »

yes, we have received a letter from the council with the full list of the things that have to be completed (the list is about 8 pages long, list that was supposed to be finished before march 2010). and the title of the thread is what it is, because we are tired of all this and we would just walk away because paying a mortgage on a place that is at risk every day it is not healthy. i find it hard to believe that the bank can give you all the money without assessing the property.

I don't think that the bank is at fault here. You employed a solicitor to check that these things were in place - and they acted on what appears to be a fraudulent cert - as did the council. The banks send a valuer to the property - but only to assess if the property is "worth" the mortgage you are applying for.

Did you or your solicitor, on your behalf get a survey done?

Blackjack

dolly47 wrote: »

i find it hard to believe that the bank can give you all the money without assessing the property.

This is the problem with Modern Ireland - no one wants to take responsibility.

You want the Bank to take responsibility for Assessing the property that you bought - have you no such responsibility yourself, given you were the one borrowing what, a quarter of a Million Euros???

triskellion

Depending on the age of the block, it's either the management company or the builders / homebond who will have to fix this.
You as an apartment owner are actually a long lease holder from the Management Co. of which you are a shareholder. Legally this entity is the ones who must approach the builders and / or retain a firm to fix the place.
The costs may well be shared between the apartment owners unless there is sufficient reserves in the company.
Note the management company is not the same thing as the management agents, as the latter are on contract from the former.
Basically get an independent solicitor involved and get the board of owners onto it. It has nothing to do with your bank except that if the building is not up to scratch it may potentially invalidate all tenures and they may opt to call in the mortgages.

TurkeyBurger

triskellion wrote: »

It has nothing to do with your bank except that if the building is not up to scratch it may potentially invalidate all tenures and they may opt to call in the mortgages.

Any idea how this would work? By 'call in the mortgages', do you mean that the bank could force a full and complete repayment from the borrower or that they would effectively say to the borrower to move out and that the mortgage was void?

I'm just not sure what you are getting at. Presumably, the bank cannot sell an apartment that isn't up to scratch so it is in the bank's best interest to be receiving payments from the mortgage holders?

triskellion

If you "own" an apartment what you legally have is a long lease (normally 999 years) from the management company of which you own a % share related to amount of units in the company. e.g 100 apartments means 100 shareholders of 1% each.
That lease is actually your mortgageable interest.
If that interest is rendered invalid, either by the management company withdrawing it because you did not uphold your end of the lease (e.g. non payment of service charge) or their end is invalided (e.g. the unit is not fit for habitation or the company is liquidated) then the mortgageable interest is no longer there and therefore the bank may call in the money secured by same.
There are obviously exceptions to this ownership model and it's not a regular occurrence for banks but it is a legal matter to be borne in mind when it comes to your obligations regarding apartments and management companies.

dolly47

Blackjack wrote: »

This is the problem with Modern Ireland - no one wants to take responsibility.

You want the Bank to take responsibility for Assessing the property that you bought - have you no such responsibility yourself, given you were the one borrowing what, a quarter of a Million Euros???

We completed a snag list on the apt; how could we phisically and materially do a snag list to all 200 apts???

Blackjack

dolly47 wrote: »

We completed a snag list on the apt; how could we phisically and materially do a snag list to all 200 apts???

dolly47 wrote: »

t
i find it hard to believe that the bank can give you all the money without assessing the property.

Why should the bank have to do this for you?.

dolly47

triskellion wrote: »

If you "own" an apartment what you legally have is a long lease (normally 999 years) from the management company of which you own a % share related to amount of units in the company. e.g 100 apartments means 100 shareholders of 1% each.
That lease is actually your mortgageable interest.
If that interest is rendered invalid, either by the management company withdrawing it because you did not uphold your end of the lease (e.g. non payment of service charge) or their end is invalided (e.g. the unit is not fit for habitation or the company is liquidated) then the mortgageable interest is no longer there and therefore the bank may call in the money secured by same.
There are obviously exceptions to this ownership model and it's not a regular occurrence for banks but it is a legal matter to be borne in mind when it comes to your obligations regarding apartments and management companies.

Thanks very much for your response; the management company was in liquidation, the building is not up to scratch and we were notified of this by the dublin county council. Could you explain your last paragraph a bit further please. Do you think this is a case for us to get out of here?

Mr. Loverman

If you got a car loan for a car and the car turned out to be faulty, would you blame the bank for that?

danbohan

Blackjack wrote: »

This is the problem with Modern Ireland - no one wants to take responsibility.

You want the Bank to take responsibility for Assessing the property that you bought - have you no such responsibility yourself, given you were the one borrowing what, a quarter of a Million Euros???

agh now thats v harsh , dont you know that it was them banks and developers using hypnosis and old magic tricks that got 100s of thousands of our citzens into negative equity shh11t and that we should all club together now and have a nice bailout for them , personal responsibility watz zat ?

Oliver1985

O.P I think i read about your place in the paper? Is it in Donaghmede? How many apartments in the block?

triskellion

dolly47 wrote: »

Thanks very much for your response; the management company was in liquidation, the building is not up to scratch and we were notified of this by the dublin county council. Could you explain your last paragraph a bit further please. Do you think this is a case for us to get out of here?

Sounds to me as if the owners will have to come together, cost out the job & get it fixed.
You'll also need to get a good solicitor involved and re constitute the management co. Tricky job but will be essential. The apartments are definitely unsaleable, potentially uninsurable and if the banks get involved you could end up with a massive bill over your head for the money they loaned and no roof over your head.
Short answer, you can't hand back the keys & walk away scott free if that's your question.
Basically you need to get a solicitor involved, quick, this is serious.

Moonbeam

This wasn't in north Dublin by any chance?

Jaysoose

danbohan wrote: »

agh now thats v harsh , dont you know that it was them banks and developers using hypnosis and old magic tricks that got 100s of thousands of our citzens into negative equity shh11t and that we should all club together now and have a nice bailout for them , personal responsibility watz zat ?

Wow this is a pathetic reponse...was the OP meant to go out and do a course in how to assess the fire safety aspects of a large apartment complex? The bank had a "trained professional" assess the place as was the standard practice at the time.

Some people really get a kick out of anonymously putting people down on here for some reason know only to themselves and to be fair you need to get a life.

lion_bar

I think there's a similar tale from Cork where the apartments will need to be knocked and all the owners are basically going to end up owning a site together.

I can't remember much of the details but if you can find something on google someone from there might actually have some practical advice for you.

dolly47

Jaysoose wrote: »

Wow this is a pathetic reponse...was the OP meant to go out and do a course in how to assess the fire safety aspects of a large apartment complex? The bank had a "trained professional" assess the place as was the standard practice at the time.

Some people really get a kick out of anonymously putting people down on here for some reason know only to themselves and to be fair you need to get a life.

thanks jaysoose! would you know if i can find any legal document online that talks about the bank assessment of property?

dolly47

Oliver1985 wrote: »

O.P I think i read about your place in the paper? Is it in Donaghmede? How many apartments in the block?

no, it wasnt us; believe it or not, the story hasnt hit the papers yet and people live here as normal and even worse the letting agencies are renting apts out to people that completely ignore the danger of the building!!!

our block is in dublin west anyway...

Oliver1985

dolly47 wrote: »

no, it wasnt us; believe it or not, the story hasnt hit the papers yet and people live here as normal and even worse the letting agencies are renting apts out to people that completely ignore the danger of the building!!!

our block is in dublin west anyway...

Cheers O.P , Its just your story is pretty much the same as Donaghgmede I think it will cost 250,000 to fix that complex so the 200 residents might have to pay it not sure!!

jmayo

dolly47 wrote: »

yes, we have received a letter from the council with the full list of the things that have to be completed (the list is about 8 pages long, list that was supposed to be finished before march 2010). and the title of the thread is what it is, because we are tired of all this and we would just walk away because paying a mortgage on a place that is at risk every day it is not healthy. i find it hard to believe that the bank can give you all the money without assessing the property.

As others have advised get a good independent solicitor involved.
Also all the owners are going to have to come together, not just solve this as individuals as this affects everyone.
Have you had owners meetings to discuss this situation ?

The ones responsible for this mess are the ones that signed off on it and not the bank(s).
Banks are responsible for lots of things, but not directly responsible for poor substandard build quality.

IMHO all of these incidents just goes to show how shoddy once again our regulation enforcement really is in this country.

Blackjack

Jaysoose wrote: »

Wow this is a pathetic reponse...was the OP meant to go out and do a course in how to assess the fire safety aspects of a large apartment complex? The bank had a "trained professional" assess the place as was the standard practice at the time.

Some people really get a kick out of anonymously putting people down on here for some reason know only to themselves and to be fair you need to get a life.

Banks aren't there to assess build quality, or identify the problems in this case....