Budget pay cuts for ministers and TD's

Tora Bora

We are going to have a hairshirt budget, that's a given.

Naturally, the optics will require members of the oireachtas to take a very cold bath to give the appearance of leadership.

What will be the level of pay cuts for our TD's and ministers?
What other jaw dropping cut backs will there be in expenses, allowances, cars, phones, etc,?

Will Brian Cowen step up to the plate and reduce his own salary to say the average industrial wage?

GSF

Tora Bora wrote: »

What will be the level of pay cuts for our TD's and ministers?

I'd guess a -5% pay cut linked to a 10% increase in expense allowances

Dorcha

Their wages should be reduced to the average industrial wage. I would let them keep their expenses, but they would have to produce receipts for all of them.

They should be on a minimum wage or stipend while in a recession, incentivise them to work to fix things. Law should state this. Give them loads if we grow.

We should make a new crime called economic treason or something like that and if policies can be proven to cause recessions then we claw back their pay i.e Bertie Ahern would of been paid loads while we grew but his policies ultimately led to a recession - we get the money back - jail time & or massive fines should also apply if recessions last longer than certain time frames.


The politicians play with big stakes its time they were held accountable and their actions were weighted accordingly.

Permabear

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ardmacha

This minimum wage thing is not reasonable. However a strong signal could be shown if all of these limos for personal use and the like were swept away. Things likes phones should just have a contract with someone to provide them.

RichardAnd

the min wage comment is a typical boards.ie remark, puerile and unreasonable. TDs will probably get a hit and they should but, sadly, even if we stopped paying everyone of them, the amount saved wouldn't really put much of a dent in the deficit.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Dorcha

donegalfella wrote: »

Honestly, that's a bit silly. I'm all for reducing politicians' wages, but paying only the minimum wage would ensure than only already wealthy people could afford to pursue a career in politics. And that would not necessarily be good for democracy or for the country.

I would have to disagree there. I remember several ministers being interviewed and their constant mantra when the question of their salaries came up was that they could make more if they chose to work in the private sector. In that case, money is the wrong incentive for them. If a minimum wage was brought in for politicians (it wouldn’t be, of course, because they would be the ones bringing it in), what would happen is that the wealthy would move to the private sector and the poorer people would take their political jobs. Higher education doesn’t come in to it, because the civil servants run the country anyway when the politicians aren’t getting in their way. And poorer education doesn’t mean poorer intelligence, in case anyone might think that the civil service could hoodwink those people.

pocketvenus

Min wage for ministers etc is never going to work the best way to deal with it is to cap their wages at what €50,000 and limit expenses such as receipts for everything, proper investigation into what is claimed for etc.

Also all these perks they get should also be done away unless it is proper ministerial busines well then no pay, expenses etc.

Looks at todays new councillers are being sent on a course to use Facebook and it is going to cost up to €500+ for each of them and I say that figure will rise even more. Seriously cant their kids, if they have any, or people who work with them show them how to use it you do not need a one or two day junket to learn how to use Facebook

Tora Bora

Anyone who thinks, this guy should be on the minimum wage, clearly knows nothing about the sacrifices the political classes make

AckwelFoley

Brian Cowen work for the average industrial wage?

That makes zero sence

Hes the leader of the state and you want him to take home less than a busy trades person or small business owner

Absolute nonsence.

You dont have to like the man, and of course there needs to be cut backs on expenses etc, but to make a suggestion like this is just complete nonsence

Dorcha

snyper wrote: »

Brian Cowen work for the average industrial wage?

That makes zero sence

Hes the leader of the state and you want him to take home less than a busy trades person or small business owner

Absolute nonsence.

You dont have to like the man, and of course there needs to be cut backs on expenses etc, but to make a suggestion like this is just complete nonsence

That's just your opinion; it doesn't make it fact. We'll assume that Mr Cowen and the man cleaning the street are both doing a job and contributing to the running of the country. Why would Mr Cowen's job be considered more important than that of the man cleaning the street? If the street cleaner didn't do his job, then in time we would find ourself is just as big a mess as we are at the moment, in a different context. The helath and safety of people would also be at risk. So why shouldn't the cleaner get paid the same as Mr Cowen?

Welease

Dorcha wrote: »

That's just your opinion; it doesn't make it fact. We'll assume that Mr Cowen and the man cleaning the street are both doing a job and contributing to the running of the country. Why would Mr Cowen's job be considered more important than that of the man cleaning the street? If the street cleaner didn't do his job, then in time we would find ourself is just as big a mess as we are at the moment, in a different context. The helath and safety of people would also be at risk. So why shouldn't the cleaner get paid the same as Mr Cowen?

Because the street cleaner doesn't have to make decisions that impact millions of people and billions of Euro?

There is a reason a CEO of a company makes more than the receptionist.. if you don't understand the reasons then /shrug...

AckwelFoley

Dorcha wrote: »

That's just your opinion; it doesn't make it fact. We'll assume that Mr Cowen and the man cleaning the street?

Most able bodied people can clean the streets

There are literally only a few dozen people that can and or would be willing to run the country.

By your theory, someone that works as a brain surgeon should earn the same as someone that works behind the counter at tescos, no im not insulting someone that works behind a counter - i do and have done for years, but to debate wheather someone with an education and great skill should be paid similar to someone working at a job that requires less education and skill is not just my opinion is nonsence.

Where would the insentive be for people to go to college and work hard if the reward for effort and individual skill want rewarded?

femur61

Mary Lou McDonald was on the Mat Cooper show this evening, Anton Savage was in the hot seat, she said ministers pay should be cut up to 40%, they could easily live on €75k/yr. I'd die for that wage, (not literally). I never thought I'd agree with Sinn Fein but tonight I thought if they keep talking like that they might get a vote of me. Enda as well is appealing to me.

RichardAnd

RichardAnd wrote: »

the min wage comment is a typical boards.ie remark, puerile and unreasonable. TDs will probably get a hit and they should but, sadly, even if we stopped paying everyone of them, the amount saved wouldn't really put much of a dent in the deficit.

not really they get massive allowances on top of their wages

ninjasurfer1

snyper wrote: »

Most able bodied people can clean the streets

There are literally only a few dozen people that can and or would be willing to run the country.

By your theory, someone that works as a brain surgeon should earn the same as someone that works behind the counter at tescos, no im not insulting someone that works behind a counter - i do and have done for years, but to debate wheather someone with an education and great skill should be paid similar to someone working at a job that requires less education and skill is not just my opinion is nonsence.

Where would the insentive be for people to go to college and work hard if the reward for effort and individual skill want rewarded?

While I agree that highly qualified/trained/experienced people should get paid accordingly, there's a difference between a surgeon earning a good salary doing the job he trained for and a lot of the TD's we have who have no qualifications in helping to run a country (political, legal, economic, etc, qualifications/experience).
Paying the likes of Jackie Healy Rae a TD's salary (and expenses!!) does not equate to good value for money.

Tora Bora

snyper wrote: »

Brian Cowen work for the average industrial wage?

That makes zero sence

Hes the leader of the state and you want him to take home less than a busy trades person or small business owner

Absolute nonsence.

You dont have to like the man, and of course there needs to be cut backs on expenses etc, but to make a suggestion like this is just complete nonsence

It's not that I dislike Cowan, or that I think he should work for average industrial wage as Taoiseach. However we are in extraordinary times, requiring tough hard decisions to be made, which will have consequences for every citizen. It can well be argued, that this and previous FF governments, allowed our economy to get out of control.

At this, juncture it would send out a serious message of intent, if the political leadership were to take a massive drop in salaries.

AckwelFoley

ninjasurfer1 wrote: »

While I agree that highly qualified/trained/experienced people should get paid accordingly, there's a difference between a surgeon earning a good salary doing the job he trained for and a lot of the TD's we have who have no qualifications in helping to run a country (political, legal, economic, etc, qualifications/experience).
Paying the likes of Jackie Healy Rae a TD's salary (and expenses!!) does not equate to good value for money.

Most politicans have degrees, you pick JH Rae, because he's and easy target for the media, but Brian Cowen and co are very educated people.

No most of them dont hold specific degrees in political legal or econimic fields, but their well paid advisors that essentially make many of the decisions are. Do you think Brian Lenihan sits in the Bath and decides where to make budget cuts? No, he has a team of well qualified professionals advising him.

He will in essance make the final decisions but they are based on educated study of the situation, its the same for what other leader if a department is involved. The difference is the political slant they decide to go with.

Welease

ninjasurfer1 wrote: »

While I agree that highly qualified/trained/experienced people should get paid accordingly, there's a difference between a surgeon earning a good salary doing the job he trained for and a lot of the TD's we have who have no qualifications in helping to run a country (political, legal, economic, etc, qualifications/experience).
Paying the likes of Jackie Healy Rae a TD's salary (and expenses!!) does not equate to good value for money.

Sadly while what you say is true.. His local voters would beg to differ.. and like it or not that is democracy in action...

We do have a choice...

Welease

Tora Bora wrote: »

It's not that I dislike Cowan, or that I think he should work for average industrial wage as Taoiseach. However we are in extraordinary times, requiring tough hard decisions to be made, which will have consequences for every citizen. It can well be argued, that this and previous FF governments, allowed our economy to get out of control.

At this, juncture it would send out a serious message of intent, if the political leadership were to take a massive drop in salaries.

In order to make Ireland more attractive to foreign investment on which we rely.. most people should take a massive drop in income...

I don't see many else lining up to do their patriotic duty, do we expect Biffo to be any different?

AckwelFoley

Tora Bora wrote: »

It's not that I dislike Cowan, or that I think he should work for average industrial wage as Taoiseach. However we are in extraordinary times, requiring tough hard decisions to be made, which will have consequences for every citizen. It can well be argued, that this and previous FF governments, allowed our economy to get out of control.
.

Ultimatley the government are to blame for the severity of the economic crisis. Its pointless to debate that we would have avoided it if different measures were taken, it wouldnt, Global finances are linked, we cant avoid a global economic crisis, but what we could have done was not put all our preverbial eggs in one basket, the government are guilty of not preparing for this crisis, they are in my eyes guilty of having a toothless financial regulator that allowed our banks follow in the footsteps of American lending practices.

Tora Bora wrote: »

At this, juncture it would send out a serious message of intent, if the political leadership were to take a massive drop in salaries.

We dont need messages of intent that serve little purpose, we need serious financial savings and as donegalfella said in this thread or perhaps another one, cutting td's salaries and expenses in half is only a drop in the ocean. We need significant savings and we need the within 6 months Preferably before the next bond sale, buyers of our bonds dont carfe about politicans wages, they care that our country is a safe investment.

hmmm

We don't want politics to end up the preserve of the rich or the useless. I don't think TDs salaries should be cut any further, instead we need to cut the number of TDs.

Minister, Taoiseach, Presidents salaries should be cut drastically.

ninjasurfer1

snyper wrote: »

Most politicans have degrees, you pick JH Rae, because he's and easy target for the media, but Brian Cowen and co are very educated people.

No most of them dont hold specific degrees in political legal or econimic fields, but their well paid advisors that essentially make many of the decisions are. Do you think Brian Lenihan sits in the Bath and decides where to make budget cuts? No, he has a team of well qualified professionals advising him.

He will in essance make the final decisions but they are based on educated study of the situation, its the same for what other leader if a department is involved. The difference is the political slant they decide to go with.

Thats kind of my point.
If they have all of these expensive well qualified professionals doing the groundwork and providing all of the information, we are essentially paying top dollar for the politicians to flip a coin as to whether go with these findings or not (an over simplistic view i admit).
If these people (politicians) are not qualified in the areas they are responsible for, they will most likely take the most polished advice given to them by their advisors. If they end up making a mess of it, they blame their advisors/World economy, etc.

flutered

snyper wrote: »

Most able bodied people can clean the streets

There are literally only a few dozen people that can and or would be willing to run the country.

but we have a dail and seanad load of out of touch people who have ruined it

ninjasurfer1

Welease wrote: »

I don't see many else lining up to do their patriotic duty, do we expect Biffo to be any different?

Difference is, Biffo will impose it on everyone else.
Lead by example and all that.....

AckwelFoley

ninjasurfer1 wrote: »

Thats kind of my point.
If they have all of these expensive well qualified professionals doing the groundwork and providing all of the information, we are essentially paying top dollar for the politicians to flip a coin as to whether go with these findings or not (an over simplistic view i admit).
If these people (politicians) are not qualified in the areas they are responsible for, they will most likely take the most polished advice given to them by their advisors. If they end up making a mess of it, they blame their advisors/World economy, etc.

The other way you could look at it is why dont people like the financial advisors. or economic advisors run the country?

Because firstly they would need to get elected by us the people, and secondly and most importantly theres more to politics than balancing the books

Michael o leary is a brilliant business man, like him or loath him hes successful, but can you imagine him as out minister for finance? There would be no socail welfare. My point is that between the political direction you need to take and the advisors, there are the people, politicans get elected because thy are good with people, if they werent they wouldnt get elected

I know a woman that was a minister in a past government, cute as a fox, but absolutely no political ideal she could work for stalin or Bertie, but been able to take advice and balance what needs to be done and what realistically can be done is what she was good at.

I know what needs to be done to fix this mess up, but i also know that for every action taken someone is going to be affected, there always is, it at this point is about limiting the number of affected and the severity of the cutbacks

AckwelFoley

ninjasurfer1 wrote: »

Difference is, Biffo will impose it on everyone else.
Lead by example and all that.....

snyper wrote: »

We dont need messages of intent that serve little purpose, we need serious financial savings and as donegalfella said in this thread or perhaps another one, cutting td's salaries and expenses in half is only a drop in the ocean. We need significant savings and we need the within 6 months Preferably before the next bond sale, buyers of our bonds dont carfe about politicans wages, they care that our country is a safe investment.

As i said, leading by example makes you and me feel better,but its solving nothing

ninjasurfer1

snyper wrote: »

The other way you could look at it is why dont people like the financial advisors. or economic advisors run the country?

Because firstly they would need to get elected by us the people, and secondly and most importantly theres more to politics than balancing the books

Michael o leary is a brilliant business man, like him or loath him hes successful, but can you imagine him as out minister for finance? There would be no socail welfare. My point is that between the political direction you need to take and the advisors, there are the people, politicans get elected because thy are good with people, if they werent they wouldnt get elected

I know a woman that was a minister in a past government, cute as a fox, but absolutely no political ideal she could work for stalin or Bertie, but been able to take advice and balance what needs to be done and what realistically can be done is what she was good at.

I know what needs to be done to fix this mess up, but i also know that for every action taken someone is going to be affected, there always is, it at this point is about limiting the number of affected and the severity of the cutbacks

I agree with what you're saying. Politics is about more than pure economics. Its a juggling act.
Having said that, should we pay jugglers the extraordinary salaries that TD's command?

ninjasurfer1

snyper wrote: »

As i said, leading by example makes you and me feel better,but its solving nothing

Agreed.
On a national scale, it counts for nothing.
Symbolically, it would go towards showing the masses that our politicians are sharing the pain.

Given that the TD's decide on their own cuts, the quote below sums it up for me:

"The salary of the chief executive of a large corporation is not a market award for achievement. It is frequently in the nature of a warm personal gesture by the individual to himself.”

AckwelFoley

ninjasurfer1 wrote: »

I agree with what you're saying. Politics is about more than pure economics. Its a juggling act.
Having said that, should we pay jugglers the extraordinary salaries that TD's command?

Its an extrodinary difficult job.

MOst people that are smart enough to be politicans and posess the skill so function as a political representative wouldnt dream of being one, they can make a more money in the private sector. Most politicans do see it as a vocation, but vocations have a limit and financial reality is also rellviant.

Brian Cowen is a solicitor, he could have set uphis own practice and earned a nice amount of money working for himself, if we demand that the wages of our politicans is cut to such an amount we wont get the better minds in polotics.

I can already hear the "Jackie Healy rae - Our politicans are not smart they're idiots" Im not entering that debate, because frankly its nonsence

Ive no affection for any particular politician but we need to stop being blinded by our own anger and try and see the wood from the trees, if we dont we as a nation wont move forward. There are good politicans there, there are bad ones, there has been serious mistakes made, but we must get out of this situation

There will be elections soon, there will be new people running, listen to then and vote for which one you think will be the best juggler.

AckwelFoley

ninjasurfer1 wrote: »

Agreed.
On a national scale, it counts for nothing.
Symbolically, it would go towards showing the masses that our politicians are sharing the pain.

Given that the TD's decide on their own cuts, the quote below sums it up for me:

"The salary of the chief executive of a large corporation is not a market award for achievement. It is frequently in the nature of a warm personal gesture by the individual to himself.”

Its something that can be debated, but to be honest i feel that regardless of the cuts they take it wouldnt stem the anger that there is for many politicans.

Asi said, they earn alot of money relative to you or me, but if i had the smarts to be a politican, i wouldnt do it for that money.. id find something easier to do for the same or more money

ninjasurfer1

snyper wrote: »

Its an extrodinary difficult job.

MOst people that are smart enough to be politicans and posess the skill so function as a political representative wouldnt dream of being one, they can make a more money in the private sector. Most politicans do see it as a vocation, but vocations have a limit and financial reality is also rellviant.

Brian Cowen is a solicitor, he could have set up his own practice and earned a nice amount of money working for himself, if we demand that the wages of our politicans is cut to such an amount we wont get the better minds in polotics.

I can already hear the "Jackie Healy rae - Our politicans are not smart they're idiots" Im not entering that debate, because frankly its nonsence

Ive no affection for any particular politician but we need to stop being blinded by our own anger and try and see the wood from the trees, if we dont we as a nation wont move forward. There are good politicans there, there are bad ones, there has been serious mistakes made, but we must get out of this situation

There will be elections soon, there will be new people running, listen to then and vote for which one you think will be the best juggler.

I'm not sure whether being "smart enough and skillful enough" is a requirement to become a politician. If they take the proper advice from their advisors, they can be made to look like competant politicians.
(The "likeability" factor would seem to be as big a factor in them becoming a successful politician).

In addition, the problem with picking new (or old) politicians, be they good or bad, is that they are tied to the party whip (unless they are independants).

Regardless of the candidate, In the mainstream, I don't think TD's are such better politicians than politicians abroad as to warrant such high salaries.

e.g.
April 2009 Figures.

Barack Obama – United States : Salary in dollars – $400,000

Brian Cowen – Ireland : Salary in dollars – $341,000


And yes, i know its only minor, petty stuff compared to the state of the economy!!

AckwelFoley

ninjasurfer1 wrote: »

I'm not sure whether being "smart enough and skillful enough" is a requirement to become a politician. If they take the proper advice from their advisors, they can be made to look like competant politicians.

Likeability is one thing, but to be fair it only gets you so far.

99% of the time you need some savey to get elected, you need to start from the ground up. And to get as far as a TD you need to be smart. Booksmart helps, but savey is equally as important

Dorcha

---

snyper wrote: »

Most able bodied people can clean the streets

snyper wrote: »

There are literally only a few dozen people that can and or would be willing to run the country.

As someone else has pointed out here, the real work of running the country is done by the civil service. Being a minister does not require one to be a member of Mensa. I would dispute that there are any great brains in the present government, or, indeed that such are needed. All that’s required is ordinary intelligence, which many street cleaners have. What most of them do not have is a rich background and a desire for power.

By your theory, someone that works as a brain surgeon should earn the same as someone that works behind the counter at tescos, no im not insulting someone that works behind a counter - i do and have done for years, but to debate wheather someone with an education and great skill should be paid similar to someone working at a job that requires less education and skill is not just my opinion is nonsence.

Yes, the first part of you statement is my theory. You’ve made no mistake there.

Any person with ordinary intelligence can learn any job. All that’s required is the opportunity and the desire to learn it. That desire is not present in a lot of people, not is the opportunity available. Please don't keep calling everything you don't agree with nonsense.


Where would the insentive be for people to go to college and work hard if the reward for effort and individual skill want rewarded?

So, according to you the incentive to do something should always be money. I think the incentive should be job satisfaction: to do a job because you like doing it and for that reason want to do it to the best of your ability. Doing something for money is the baser incentive. Of course, the way the present system of economy works, money is needed for just the basic necessities of life. Instead of exchanging work for work, we exchange money for work, but this is in order to survive. Many people are in jobs they don’t like, simply in order to earn a living.

Dorcha

Welease wrote: »

Because the street cleaner doesn't have to make decisions that impact millions of people and billions of Euro?

There is a reason a CEO of a company makes more than the receptionist.. if you don't understand the reasons then /shrug...

Let me do it for you. What you are trying to say is that a person who has more responsibility should get more money. What you do not see is that this attitude is denigrating the receptionist. It says that he or she is has less intelligence, less worth and is a second-class citizen. What you do not see is that the CEO has more responsibility because he/she wanted it, and he/she wanted it because it would earn him/her more money. Let us not kid ourselves that idealism is rampant in the world.

TheRealPONeil

Dorcha wrote: »

Let me do it for you. What you are trying to say is that a person who has more responsibility should get more money. What you do not see is that this attitude is denigrating the receptionist. It says that he or she is has less intelligence, less worth and is a second-class citizen.

It says nothing of the sort. It actually says that this person is willing to accept a certain wage for less risk. If they had "receptionist" stamped on their head at birth well fair enough they are possibly denigrated, but in real life they made choices to arrive at being a receptionist.

Dorcha

TheRealPONeil wrote: »

It says nothing of the sort. It actually says that this person is willing to accept a certain wage for less risk.

In some cases, yes, but in most cases, no. In most cases it is a choice between being a receptionist or starving. The choice of being a millionaire is not included.


Can we have a bit of a reality check here? I’m sure you are not deluded enough to think that everyone can be a millionaire if they so desire. The more one group take, the less there is for the others. Up to now the human race has been governed by Darwin’s rule of the strong winning out. But evolution basically means change and change can be of different types. Humans now have control over their own evolution in many ways; they can decide, for example, that the wealth of the Earth is for all of its inhabitations, not for just a few, and – importantly – that when the wealth is fairly shared there will be a good deal less cause for strife. Unfortunately greed blinds people and the first thing to do it to wean people away from it.

Welease

Dorcha wrote: »

Let me do it for you. What you are trying to say is that a person who has more responsibility should get more money.

Yes..

Dorcha wrote: »

What you do not see is that this attitude is denigrating the receptionist. It says that he or she is has less intelligence, less worth and is a second-class citizen. What you do not see is that the CEO has more responsibility because he/she wanted it, and he/she wanted it because it would earn him/her more money. Let us not kid ourselves that idealism is rampant in the world.

It does not denigrate the receptionist..

It means the position of CEO comes with responsibilities, and those responsibilties comes with a higher renumeration package.. In the case of TD's, Ministers etc. that package is clearly defined, understood and publically available.. Why should someone who answered the phone or cleans streets get paid the same amount as someone who's decisions make or break the company/country?

If the receptionist wishes to go down the political route there is no barrier to that. The can join a party, run as an independant and let democracy run its course..
If they wish to become a CEO then can follow establised routes in existing companies or setup their own company and become a CEO.. once again, there is no barrier to that..

In both cases if they are successful they will reap the rewards, if not /shrug....

Dorcha

Welease wrote: »

Yes..



It does not denigrate the receptionist..

It means the position of CEO comes with responsibilities, and those responsibilties comes with a higher renumeration package.. In the case of TD's, Ministers etc. that package is clearly defined, understood and publically available.. Why should someone who answered the phone or cleans streets get paid the same amount as someone who's decisions make or break the company/country?

If the receptionist wishes to go down the political route there is no barrier to that. The can join a party, run as an independant and let democracy run its course..
If they wish to become a CEO then can follow establised routes in existing companies or setup their own company and become a CEO.. once again, there is no barrier to that..

In both cases if they are successful they will reap the rewards, if not /shrug....

My answer is in the post above yours. But if "shrug" is your attitude, I really don't know why you bother replying to me.

Fluffybums

Personally I think the number of TDs should be reduced to about 100, cut their salaries to the level of the UK MPs 65738pounds (73888 euro), all expenses to be vouched, no pensions to be payable until they reach retirement age and actually retire. The Taoiseach to be paid UK prime ministers rate 142500 pounds (160167 euro) and ministers to be paid equivalent to UK 134565 pounds (151248 euro) that includes their TD salary. All the senior civil servants salaries should be likewise cut and with a smaller number of TDs and ministers (the number should be cut pro rata with the number of TDs) the number of ministerial senior civil servants should be cut. The cuts should be started at the highest level, with everyone having to justify their job. County and borough/city councils should be combined with the interviews for the positions which will be doubled up, the unsuccessful candidates to be given redundancy. All expenses in the public sector to be vouched. If this was done properly, we might be amazed at how much could be saved without affecting frontline services. The value of the cuts may not approach what is needed, but it would be a year on year saving and would prevent the job for life mentality of the public sector.

I only use the UK as the comparator as they are our nearest neighbour, it is not a comparable economy because to population is over 10 times the size of ours and it is a G8 economy.

Welease

Dorcha wrote: »

My answer is in the post above yours. But if "shrug" is your attitude, I really don't know why you bother replying to me.

No, your previous response doesn't even make sense...

If everyone can do the job, but some don't have the "desire" to learn how to do a job .. then why does it denegrate receptionists to pay them less than someone who has taken the time and effort to learn and succeed in a job?

I assume by your same beliefs, those who haven't quite found their calling in life, and have been receiving welfare for 10 years should be paid a CEO wage so we don't denegrate them also?

Rediculous...

bamboozle

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

watch after the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves...

every cent of govt expenditure needs to be vouced, accounted for and justified. irrespective of the 15m or so in savings there would also be anciliary savings on future pension entitlements for TD's etc.
Personally i'd slash TD's salaries, expenses etc, i'd also sell the govt jets, helicoptors, state cars, farmleigh house, close the dail bar, close the dail cafe, have a referendum to shut down the toothless Seanad. These measures wouldnt get us out of the recession, far from it, however they might just be a step in the right direction and they'd focus the attentions of the td's away from the trough of state money they've been gorging from.

Dorcha

Welease wrote: »

No, your previous response doesn't even make sense...

If everyone can do the job, but some don't have the "desire" to learn how to do a job .. then why does it denegrate receptionists to pay them less than someone who has taken the time and effort to learn and succeed in a job?

I assume by your same beliefs, those who haven't quite found their calling in life, and have been receiving welfare for 10 years should be paid a CEO wage so we don't denegrate them also?

Rediculous...

Try to open your mind a little if it’s possible. The “greed is good” and “grab all you can” philosophy that you espouse hasn’t solved any of mankind’s problems, although it’s been tried for thousands of years. Don’t you think it’s time we tried something else?


Your remark about the unemployed is offensive. Ninety percent of the people who are on the dole aren’t there from choice; they’re there because they can’t get a job, and that's because the people with most of the money are so scared that they’ll loose a few thousand that they’re keeping it all locked away and weakening the economy. Because of them, people are out of work, the tax intake is down, and the amount of welfare to be paid out has gone up.


You think that if people are out of work they should be practically starved, while the already rich should be allowed to hoard and make as much money as they like? You think that’s right? You think that makes for a peaceful and just society? There are more that a few criminals in this country who are ultra rich. According to your philosophy, they should be praised rather than condemned because they put in the effort and were clever and resourceful.


I can see that you’re happy with the way things are and I’m not going to criticise you for that; everyone’s thinking is moulded by their background and upbringing, but it would be nice to hear a counter argument, if you have one. The word “nonsense” is not an argument; it suggests a closed mind.

flutered

you people are on about cutting tds wages, you are wasting your time and boards bandwith, one query for all you guys ( gals ) how many of them are drawing two salarys, say tds and school teacher or whatever, then ask your selves how can they be got to cut their wages, me thinks that they refused to do this already, when that one is answered move to the top civil servants.

Sleepy

If nothing else, a government slashing their own salaries by, let's say half, could be hugely spun as "responsible governance", "leading by example" etc.

Like Bamboozle points out, developing a culture where all public expenditure has to be justified has to start at the top. Unions only have power if they have public support. A PS union refusing to accept pay cuts / redundancies from a government that have slashed their own pay would have even less support than they do at present.

It would also be a signal to the markets that the Irish government are *finally* getting serious about tackling the huge problems they've created.

Personally, my solution would be to link pay to the median / average wage of a PAYE worker or GNP. The argument for paying politicians well is valid, but it should be linked to performance imho. The utter nonsense of pensions being collectable before retirement age and multiple pension entitlements being allowed should also be entirely scrapped.

Jaysoose

Considering there are going to be increases in income tax and prsi for workers that did nothing except try to work and get by during this entire debacle the TD's had better take a significant pay cut, this should be based on entirely on their performance and nothing more. People can call it the public anger etc but the facts are they have performed abysmally and their salaries should reflect this.

They must also show a reduction in the 'professional Fees' being paid for poorly researched advice by certain bodies.

Expenses must be slashed and state cars must be taken back, pensions shoul dbe paid only when they reach a pensionable age.

The gravy train is over and the adjustment must be made, and for all the "its only 15 million" brigade you need to wake up as we are paying these people and they are laughing at us.

ardmacha

How about paying TDs based on the deficit/surplus. Deficit gets them a cut and a surplus gets them a bonus.

bryaner

snyper wrote: »

Most able bodied people can clean the streets

There are literally only a few dozen people that can and or would be willing to run the country.

By your theory, someone that works as a brain surgeon should earn the same as someone that works behind the counter at tescos, no im not insulting someone that works behind a counter - i do and have done for years, but to debate wheather someone with an education and great skill should be paid similar to someone working at a job that requires less education and skill is not just my opinion is nonsence.

Where would the insentive be for people to go to college and work hard if the reward for effort and individual skill want rewarded?

Communism comes to mind and why it fails.

Groucho2000

Just in relation to TDs salaries etc. I read a few years ago that they get an extra tax free allowance that the rest of us do not get. So they would pay a lot less tax than a normal joe soap on the same salary. Does anyone know if this is true?