Tempo pace, then and now

Woddle

Last year when I was fitter I ran a 10 mile race with an average HR of 177 bpm. I also got tested on a treadmill and blood taken and the range I was given was 180-183 bpm. So last year I would run my tempos at this HR which coincided with an average mile time of 6'40.
Now I'm not as fit as I was but I'm just wondering is it still OK to do my tempos at the same HR of last year (obviously the average mile pace will be alot slower) or are those figures just disregarded now?

I just want to start training smarter and that means at the right paces.

ecoli

Woddle wrote: »

Last year when I was fitter I ran a 10 mile race with an average HR of 177 bpm. I also got tested on a treadmill and blood taken and the range I was given was 180-183 bpm. So last year I would run my tempos at this HR which coincided with an average mile time of 6'40.
Now I'm not as fit as I was but I'm just wondering is it still OK to do my tempos at the same HR of last year (obviously the average mile pace will be alot slower) or are those figures just disregarded now?

I just want to start training smarter and that means at the right paces.

Have your resting HR and your easy runs changed much? from here you will be able to work out your HR as % so say last time your 180-183 bpm may have been about 85% compare your easy run HR and resting and try to work out what is 85% effort now. Wont be completely accurate (cant be withot blood lactates and Vo2 max testing) but it will provide a good starting point

YFlyer

Does listening to your body on how you feel come into the equation?

ecoli

YFlyer wrote: »

Does listening to your body on how you feel come into the equation?

Your head and your body dont always agree. Tempo running can be difficult for this reason because you need to run faster than normal runs but not too fast that you change the dynamics of the training systems (aerobic to anaerobic). How often do we cod ourselves into thinking that we are not going to fast only to feel the effects the next day

YFlyer

Yes perhaps use the HR monitor to determine the 'optimium' conditions for ones tempo sessions. However, it be good to internally be listening to your body during the session so you become familar with how it feels.

ecoli

YFlyer wrote: »

Yes perhaps use the HR monitor to determine the 'optimium' conditions for ones tempo sessions. However, it be good to internally be listening to your body during the session so you become familar with how it feels.

I get where your coming from and personally i am not a big fan of HR based training (my personal opinion). I think Woddle just wants some sort of rough idea in order to have a starting point in getting back to the fitness he had last year. It is important to listen to the body of course but some people like to have a little less responsibilty regarding their training through watches and HRMs especially for session to prevent going out to hard or two easy and trying to trick yourself into thinking its the right pace ( i think we all have done this from time to time)

YFlyer

My HR jumps all over the place when I pass out the UL Sports Arena at the same time that Richie Cliffords aerobics class finishes.

tergat

Woddle wrote: »

Last year when I was fitter I ran a 10 mile race with an average HR of 177 bpm. I also got tested on a treadmill and blood taken and the range I was given was 180-183 bpm. So last year I would run my tempos at this HR which coincided with an average mile time of 6'40.
Now I'm not as fit as I was but I'm just wondering is it still OK to do my tempos at the same HR of last year (obviously the average mile pace will be alot slower) or are those figures just disregarded now?

I just want to start training smarter and that means at the right paces.

Woddle,

The particular heart rate zones you use for your tempos depend on the tempo duration. Some rough rules of thumb:

Longer Tempos (6-10 miles)- 80-83% of HR Max
Medium Tempos (5-6 miles)- 84-86% of HR Max
Short Tempos (3-4 miles)- 86-88% of HR Max
LT Intervals (1.5-2.5 miles)- 88-90% of HR Max
CV Intervals (800m-1200m)- 92-93% of HR Max

Always remember to go by feel too when using heart rates as a guide as they vary according to a number of factors weather/sleep paterns/hydration etc

Some rough general rules of thumb for paces (but always go by feel):

Recovery Runs - current 5k pace plus 2.5 minutes per mile.
Regular Easy runs - current 5k plus 2 minutes per mile.
Long Tempos - current 5k plus plus about 1:15-1:30 per mile
Medium Tempos - current 5k pace plus 45-60 seconds per mile.
Short Tempos - current 5k pace plus 30-45 seconds per mile.

A bit on tempos I posted before on here below:

In my opinion, what you use for tempos depends upon (at least) four factors:

1) your current fitness level. The slower you are or the less fit you are the more likely you should use lower intensities;

2) your goal race-distance. The shorter the race distance distance the more important it would be to use harder (faster) tempos in training;

3) your time-frame. If you are far away from your goal race, using lower intensity, longer duration tempos is a good idea (this is my opinion based on experience only). The closer you are to a race the more important it is to simulate the type of intensity you'll be facing in a race. Thus, if you were close to a big 5k race then using fast tempos would be a good idea. If you are close to a marathon race, longer but slower tempos would probably work well and be the most helpful in terms of improving race-performance.

4) your natural capacities. Simply put, one runner may thrive on faster but shorter tempos while another may thrive on longer and slower tempos. It's a personal thing.

Hope that helps.

Tergat

Woddle

YFlyer wrote: »

Does listening to your body on how you feel come into the equation?

Of course it would. Just having paid money for testing and been given accurate info regarding lactate threshold and lactate turnpoint, I just wanted to know if these figures are now useless.
Tergats info is very close to the test results, so I'll go with his suggerstions.
Thanks ecoli and Tergat for info.

metamorphosis

YFlyer wrote: »

My HR jumps all over the place when I pass out the UL Sports Arena at the same time that Richie Cliffords aerobics class finishes.

haha to be fair thats pretty expected with all that lycra, girls out of sync on a step and loud music and even more lycra and the loud whistle every few seconds

Hows the running going? I remember you posted a while back about some 10k?

Back on topic: I can usually pinpoint my HR now by feel. I can tell (usually) before i look at the watch if it will be 140-150's or more.

Sometimes though my body and what the watch tell me are compltley out of sync and its usually around the time when i need a rest day or to take it easy. I have gotten into the habit if ditching the HRM though as i was becoming a slave to it. My body as and how my pace is is a good enough indicator for me for the moment

BeepBeep67

Woddle wrote: »

Of course it would. Just having paid money for testing and been given accurate info regarding lactate threshold and lactate turnpoint, I just wanted to know if these figures are now useless.
Tergats info is very close to the test results, so I'll go with his suggerstions.
Thanks ecoli and Tergat for info.

Just do a HR Max test if you don't have a recent race, I'm sure there are loads (2miles full out, 5min uphill increasing the pace every min) and then apply to tergat's table.

Woddle

Thanks beepbeep.
I'm sure my max will be similar to last year, I don't think I've been too clear on what I'm asking so I'm just going with tergats guidelines
thanks all

YFlyer

ULstudent wrote: »

Hows the running going? I remember you posted a while back about some 10k?

Thanks for asking. My running is going quite well at the moment. Still only putting in runs between 35 and 55 minutes 5 to 6 days a week. There was a week break when I went to Bulgaria a few weeks back. It gave my legs a deserve break since I was pounding on the roads most evenings. Decided to do some of my runs on the back fields from the running track.

Some days I go handy and others I would pick up the tempo. I met Willy Logan, my coach when I was younger, a few week ago and he has got me to join them every Saturday morning.

I'm considering to do some runs in Cratloe Woods soon and perhaps do some strength exercises (circuit training).

jfh

can't beat cratloe for the hills!

jfh

apologies for highhacking this thread, but it's a similiar vein to the above, rather than start a new one..
i'm training for a half marathon, this'll be my 3rd but i've never trained specifically for this, i've a question regarding the tempos that tergat speaks about above. my 10k PB is 38:40 so that give me a 5k pace of 6ish.
presume i should be doing medium tempos?
if so, at what pace? above it mentions 5k pace plus 45 -60 sec so is my medium tempo pace 6:45?
thanks for any advice given.

maddogcollins

I am also sorry to hijak, but I am new to this whole system of different types of training and only recently started a log here but I am due a tempo run this eve per the hal higdon intermediate half marathon plan.

My current 5k pace is 6ish min/km. Going by above tonight will be a short tempo (30minutes) so that mean i run for 30 minutes at 6+.30. or am i taking this up wrong?

Reading contradicting methods online. Some say do an easy 10 minutes (Below pace i.e 6+) then 10-15 above pace (try >6) then 5 easy (6+).

Which is correct or more appropriate?Thanks

RayCun

maddogcollins wrote: »

I am also sorry to hijak, but I am new to this whole system of different types of training and only recently started a log here but I am due a tempo run this eve per the hal higdon intermediate half marathon plan.

If you're following the Hal Higdon plan, why not... follow the Hal Higdon plan?

Tempo Runs: This is a continuous run with a buildup in the middle to near 10-K race pace. A Tempo Run of 30 to 45 minutes would begin with 10-15 minutes easy running, build to 15-20 minutes near the middle, then 5-10 minutes easy toward the end. The pace buildup should be gradual, not sudden, with peak speed coming about two-thirds into the workout. Hold that peak only for a minute or two.

10 easy, 15 building to 10k pace, 5 easy at the end

Woddle

maddogcollins wrote: »

I am also sorry to hijak, but I am new to this whole system of different types of training and only recently started a log here but I am due a tempo run this eve per the hal higdon intermediate half marathon plan.

My current 5k pace is 6ish min/km. Going by above tonight will be a short tempo (30minutes) so that mean i run for 30 minutes at 6+.30. or am i taking this up wrong?

Reading contradicting methods online. Some say do an easy 10 minutes (Below pace i.e 6+) then 10-15 above pace (try >6) then 5 easy (6+).

Which is correct or more appropriate?Thanks

You'll find it hard to get better advice than Tergat, I'm still dealing in miles so your 6min per km is the same as 9'36 mile, which would mean 9'36 +30/45 seconds per mile which is about 6'21 a km, I think. Did the maths myself so you probably will want to double check

maddogcollins

Thanks for replies guys..I was just unsure if I was to maintain the speed of 6:21 for the full 30 minutes or lower it then speed it up and lower it again with the average being around 6:21.

Ill figure it out as I go.Thanks again

RayCun

maddogcollins wrote: »

I was just unsure if I was to maintain the speed of 6:21 for the full 30 minutes or lower it then speed it up and lower it again with the average being around 6:21.

I don't have any opinion on which is a better workout. But if I'm following a training plan written by bloke, and bloke says "do a 30 minute tempo run tonight", and bloke says "a tempo run is _like so_" - my inclination would be to do a 30 minute run _like so_.

Other bloke might say a tempo run is _like that_, but he might also recommend doing a 40 minute tempo run tonight.

If I have read and understood some different training plans, and I know why there are different descriptions of tempo runs and what exactly the run is supposed to achieve... then I might mix and match. Until then I'd stick with a single plan.

asimonov

Hey Maddog

I have found the most effective tempos are the ones that are

15-20' warm up
X time @ X pace (constant pace)
15 warm down

But if you are only starting to do tempos sessions them use the hal higdon method above and build speed up and slow it down. This will give you more control over the run, and will be easier to recover from. As you get used to picking up the pace you can increase the plateau time so you are running longer at a consistent pace.

One benefit of tempo running is learning to keep focused and hold the pace when tired - it will pay off in races for you in the future.

maddogcollins

Thanks asimonov and RayCun, I will stick with the way it is mentioned in Hal Higdon plan and give it a go. Appreciate the replies and guidance.

Moycullen1

tergat wrote: »

Long Tempos - current 5k plus plus about 1:15-1:30 per mile
Medium Tempos - current 5k pace plus 45-60 seconds per mile.
Short Tempos - current 5k pace plus 30-45 seconds per mile.

Tergat

Tergat, would you mind giving your thoughts on what distance you would recommend for a long, medium and short tempo run. I used to do a weekly 10 mile tempo run on a Thursday along with an interval session on a Tuesday until I was recently told by mistyfloyd that the Thursday run was possibly too long. How do you feel about the suggestion that a tempo run shouldn't exceed 60 minutes. I am a 3:30 wannabe, doing my twelfth marathon on Monday.

tergat

jfh wrote: »

apologies for highhacking this thread, but it's a similiar vein to the above, rather than start a new one..
i'm training for a half marathon, this'll be my 3rd but i've never trained specifically for this, i've a question regarding the tempos that tergat speaks about above. my 10k PB is 38:40 so that give me a 5k pace of 6ish.
presume i should be doing medium tempos?
if so, at what pace? above it mentions 5k pace plus 45 -60 sec so is my medium tempo pace 6:45?
thanks for any advice given.

jfh,

Lets say your CURRENT 5km pace is 6.00 per mile. Then you would do the following tempos:

Short Tempos @ 6.30-6.45 per mile
Medium Tempos @ 6.45-7.00 per mile
Long Tempos @ 7.00-7.30 per mile

Again you will have to go by feel and learn what distance on each tempo suits you for your given fitness level.

For the HM aim for medium and long tempos and start these slower and get quicker towards the end.

Tergat

tergat

Moycullen1 wrote: »

Tergat, would you mind giving your thoughts on what distance you would recommend for a long, medium and short tempo run. I used to do a weekly 10 mile tempo run on a Thursday along with an interval session on a Tuesday until I was recently told by mistyfloyd that the Thursday run was possibly too long. How do you feel about the suggestion that a tempo run shouldn't exceed 60 minutes. I am a 3:30 wannabe, doing my twelfth marathon on Monday.

Moycullen,

Follow these guidelines:

Longer Tempos (6-10 miles)- 80-83% of HR Max
Medium Tempos (5-6 miles)- 84-86% of HR Max
Short Tempos (3-4 miles)- 86-88% of HR Max
LT Intervals (1.5-2.5 miles)- 88-90% of HR Max
CV Intervals (800m-1200m)- 92-93% of HR Max

Tempos in these ranges are fine but going much more than 10 miles for certain runners can be over kill. It really depends on your own history.

Tergat

jfh

tergat wrote: »

jfh,

Lets say your CURRENT 5km pace is 6.00 per mile. Then you would do the following tempos:

Short Tempos @ 6.30-6.45 per mile
Medium Tempos @ 6.45-7.00 per mile
Long Tempos @ 7.00-7.30 per mile

Again you will have to go by feel and learn what distance on each tempo suits you for your given fitness level.

For the HM aim for medium and long tempos and start these slower and get quicker towards the end.

Tergat

thanks for the advise Tergat, will put into practise this eve.

dna_leri

On the subject of tempo runs, read this article recently by Mario Fraioli:
http://running.competitor.com/2010/10/training/know-your-tempo_9378

For almost all the athletes I coach, from the frequent 5K’er to the twice-a-year marathoner, there’s one type of tempo run I typically turn to throughout the course of a training cycle. Once a week for the eight to 12 weeks before a target event I’ll assign a tempo run in the range of four to six miles at 10K race pace plus 15-20 seconds per mile, which for many athletes equates to roughly half marathon race pace. For those athletes who don’t have access to a fancy GPS unit or measured mile markers, running for 20 to 60 minutes at half marathon effort will do the trick.

Inside eight weeks of a goal race, a shift in the speed (and distance) of the weekly tempo run occurs, the specific nature of which depends on the athlete’s goal race distance. For my 5K and 10K runners, the four- to six-mile tempo run gets shortened to three miles at 10K race pace during the four to eight weeks prior to a peak event. I’ll often have athletes finish up the workout with 4-8 x 200 meters at 5K race pace (or 30 to 60 seconds at a similar effort) with equal recovery to work on turnover and simulate running hard at the end of a race.

Moycullen1

tergat wrote: »

Moycullen,

Follow these guidelines:

Longer Tempos (6-10 miles)- 80-83% of HR Max
Medium Tempos (5-6 miles)- 84-86% of HR Max
Short Tempos (3-4 miles)- 86-88% of HR Max
LT Intervals (1.5-2.5 miles)- 88-90% of HR Max
CV Intervals (800m-1200m)- 92-93% of HR Max

Tempos in these ranges are fine but going much more than 10 miles for certain runners can be over kill. It really depends on your own history.

Tergat

Thanks for that Tergat. Once I've recovered from my 27mile wobble around Dublin I'll definitely give those pace guidelines a try.