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Quick query about Rescue Helicopters

  • 19-10-2010 08:46PM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 920 ✭✭✭


    I'm intrigued (or even just nosey!) as to why the rescue helicopters do not land at the heli pads at either Wexford or Waterford General Hospitals? They tend to use nearby rugby pitches. Is it not strange, considering, in Wexford's case anyway, the pad is adjacent to the A & E Dept?


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭donkey balls


    the heli pads might be to small to accomadate the larger acft.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Lenny Lovett


    the heli pads might be to small to accomadate the larger acft.
    Seriously? FFS that was a great bit of planning then. Well done that Architect!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,266 ✭✭✭Steyr


    Seriously? FFS that was a great bit of planning then. Well done that Architect!

    To be honest i dont think the Architect thought of anything larger than an Alouette or Dauphin would have been landing there, its obvious that is what they were made for ( Helicopters of that size in that time period ) not the S61N which was not even in Irish skies at that time let alone the IRCG itself.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Lenny Lovett


    Steyr wrote: »
    To be honest i dont think the Architect thought of anything larger than an Alouette or Dauphin would have been landing there, its obvious that is what they were made for ( Helicopters of that size in that time period ) not the S61N which was not even in Irish skies at that time let alone the IRCG itself.
    Sure. But wouldn't the RAF Sea Kings have been regular visitors in those days? Especially given the proximity to Rosslare and the main ferry routes?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,266 ✭✭✭Steyr


    Sure. But wouldn't the RAF Sea Kings have been regular visitors in those days? Especially given the proximity to Rosslare and the main ferry routes?

    No not really they would have used EICK for that as back in those days EICK would have been a "secure" place to land in those days, even here in Galway at UCHG they had to make a whole new pad to accommodate the S61N, the Dauphin/Alouette size pad was utterly too small as seen by pics taken here by my dad and the newer ones by me.

    The pad of the old by my dad:
    4-22.jpg

    2-47.jpg


    The pad of Today by me it looks better than this now though as its since been jazzed up with lighting etc:
    P1020133.jpg


    Before it got re-done due to last years ice by me:
    P1020045.jpg


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭jimbis


    Whats stopping them improving the pads at these hospitals?
    Is it just the funds or is there other issues?

    Im sure in some cases that transfer from heli to ambulance to hospital can be fatal. :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,451 ✭✭✭Delancey


    jimbis wrote: »
    Whats stopping them improving the pads at these hospitals?
    Is it just the funds or is there other issues?

    Staff probably unwilling to give up Car Parking spaces knowing the H.S.E. :mad:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Lenny Lovett


    The pad at Wexford seems to have ample room for expansion as it is surrounded by lawn (the pad is quite big anyway) and there's no car parking around it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭Growler!!!


    The pad at Wexford seems to have ample room for expansion as it is surrounded by lawn (the pad is quite big anyway) and there's no car parking around it.


    I dont know the area so giving plenty of rope to hang myself with;)

    What are the surroundings like? If the approach is compromised by tall buildings/ large trees then it may preclude the use by the S61's.
    There is also the Perfomance Class to think of. The S61 should be Class "A" meaning in the event of an engine failure, the heli has the ability to climb away safely or land ahead clear of obstacles.

    In certain situations the heli may lift off and climb backwards out of a landing spot so that if the worst was to happen it could land back on the landing pad. Usually a tight spot like a confined pad, pinnacle or Rig.

    Now i'm only a plank driver so go easy on me if i'm wrong:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,752 ✭✭✭cyrusdvirus


    Growler!!! wrote: »
    I dont know the area so giving plenty of rope to hang myself with;)

    What are the surroundings like? If the approach is compromised by tall buildings/ large trees then it may preclude the use by the S61's.
    There is also the Perfomance Class to think of. The S61 should be Class "A" meaning in the event of an engine failure, the heli has the ability to climb away safely or land ahead clear of obstacles.

    In certain situations the heli may lift off and climb backwards out of a landing spot so that if the worst was to happen it could land back on the landing pad. Usually a tight spot like a confined pad, pinnacle or Rig.

    Now i'm only a plank driver so go easy on me if i'm wrong:D

    Not saying i'm hugely knowledgeable myself, but at the moment i'm reading Dave Courtney's book, 9 Lives, and he states that they really don't like flying backward. Lack of visibility being the main reason.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 324 ✭✭Klunk001


    When flying a helipad style departure which is up and back,the reason for this is it helps the handling pilot to maintain visuals with the pad is case he has to reject the helo back to the pad. The winch op is the handling pilots eyes for obstacles behind when carrying out this type of departure where the S-61 is concerned.

    Growler, a very good effort at explaining...for a plank driver :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭Growler!!!


    gatecrash wrote: »
    Not saying i'm hugely knowledgeable myself, but at the moment i'm reading Dave Courtney's book, 9 Lives, and he states that they really don't like flying backward. Lack of visibility being the main reason.

    Very true the 61 is a big bird.

    Found this on youtube it may explain a bit. Theres plenty of room in the field though!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGaza3ZmRds
    Klunk001 wrote: »
    When flying a helipad style departure the winch op is the handling pilots eyes in the S-61.

    Growler, a very good effort at explaining...for a fix wing guy :D

    Haha thanks Klunk - I work with a few lads who are of the swinging wing variety:eek:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,227 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Steyr wrote: »
    To be honest i dont think the Architect thought of anything larger than an Alouette or Dauphin would have been landing there, its obvious that is what they were made for ( Helicopters of that size in that time period ) not the S61N which was not even in Irish skies at that time let alone the IRCG itself.

    Eh the Royal Navy Sea Kings were in Irish skies at the same time as the Air Corps were flying Alouettes and Duaphins AFAIK, particularly if it was at night.
    And even worse they had to carry out rescues on the West coast refueling at Knock, because the numpties in positions of power refused to site Air Corps helicopters on the west coast.

    Thankfully we now have our own coastguard service with S61s dotted around our coast to carry out rescue work.

    BTW did anyone catch BBC program last night about air ambulance in Cumbria ?
    Not sure if it was both the Yorkshire and Great North air ambulance services shown ?
    It covered the day Derrick Bird shot his way through the county and how air ambulance crews were called in and all they could do a couple of times was pronounce yet more victims dead.
    Very interesting program.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,102 ✭✭✭Storm 10


    Saw a yellow Royal Air Force Sea King at Galway hospital pad many years back on a wet and stormy Sunday night after bringing someone in from a Trawler.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭Growler!!!


    Storm 10 wrote: »
    Saw a yellow Royal Air Force Sea King at Galway hospital pad many years back on a wet and stormy Sunday night after bringing someone in from a Trawler.

    Showing my age now - but i remember cycling up to SNN airport with my buddies and waveing at the Golly Greens that came over after the Air India crash in 1985!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,266 ✭✭✭Steyr


    jmayo wrote: »
    Eh the Royal Navy Sea Kings were in Irish skies at the same time as the Air Corps were flying Alouettes and Duaphins AFAIK, particularly if it was at night.
    And even worse they had to carry out rescues on the West coast refueling at Knock, because the numpties in positions of power refused to site Air Corps helicopters on the west coast.

    Well aware of that, the point was they would have used EICK as it was more secure for obvious reasons during that time period and the pads would only have existed most likely back then for Alouette daylight Ops, also they probably never expected the RAF/RN to land there anyway as Cork would have been a more secure option especially as it is a Day/Night Operation at EICK.

    Remember in 54 there was a bad Hurricane which led to a Tanker calling a mayday and being rescued by Rosslare RNLI, after this the MRI made it well known of the urgency of Helicopters for us but it fell on dead ears, also a few years later more sea disasters happened which led to lives being lost except most were rescued thanks to the RAF, even more requests were made but still nothing happened, it wasnt until the bad winters of 62-63 that somebody decided to look into it seriously and then in Nov 63 we got our first Alouette 3.


    Also the Dauphins were night capable but for farther out ops we relied on the RAF/RN.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭donkey balls


    I use to instruct in mountain first aid and one of the guys that also instructed on the course was ex RAF(medic) and he told me that they use to re fuel in SNN all those years ago.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭xflyer


    One of the most embarrassing situations was when an RAF helicopter had to come to rescue someone on a boat that was literally stranded in the surf just off Dublin. It was all visible from the beach.

    It was literally a scandal at the time that our SAR service depended on the goodwill of another country unless it happened during the day when the weather was good.

    It is still a scandal that many hospitals don't have appropriately sized helipads or poorly sited ones particularly when you consider the waste in the HSE.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,266 ✭✭✭Steyr


    jmayo wrote: »
    Eh the Royal Navy Sea Kings were in Irish skies at the same time as the Air Corps were flying Alouettes and Duaphins AFAIK, particularly if it was at night.

    Did some digging, and the first RN Sea King HAS1 flew May 7th 1969, and they took delivery of it in the same year. The SAR Version was delivered to the RAF in 1977.

    RAF Boulmer's 202Sqn SAR Flt got there 1st two Sea Kings in November 1978.

    First RN SAR Sea King HAR.5 was delivered to 771 NAS Culdrose in early 1988.

    We first got Alouette 3's in 63 ( Hence Small Heli Pads ).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    Steyr wrote: »

    ...We first got Alouette 3's in 63 ( Hence Small Heli Pads ).

    on the other hand, before the Sea King the RAF/RN SAR fleet composed of Wessex Helicopters - and they weren't exactly pocket sized...

    and tarmac and open space is cheap.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,364 ✭✭✭EchoIndia


    xflyer wrote: »
    It is still a scandal that many hospitals don't have appropriately sized helipads or poorly sited ones particularly when you consider the waste in the HSE.

    The HSE was established in 2005 as a national organisation to organise and provide public health services. Before that we had either health boards or, before that, local authorities responsible for services on a regional or even just a county basis. There was relatively little national co-ordination so it's no wonder that practice varied from place to place.

    Hospital helipads are really only relevant to regional or national centres and with the advent of a lot more airports around the country they are not as essential as people seem to think. Only a very small proportion of hospital patients need to be brought in by air and even in those cases the availability or not of a helipad exactly on site is not very likely to affect the patient's outcome.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 324 ✭✭Klunk001


    Yes, but in a minority of cases a helipad at a hospital would make a big difference, golden hour and all that stuff. Quite a few CG taskings looking at Howth CG's web page this year have been jumpers/fallers with spinal, and head injuries and some. Some survived, some unfortunately didn't. But to me it makes no sense having a casualty in a helo flying over Beaumount Hospital to land at Dublin airport only to put the casualty in an ambulance to be driven to Beaumount hospital.
    Where the golden hour is concerned some joined up thinking is needed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,364 ✭✭✭EchoIndia


    Klunk001 wrote: »
    Yes, but in a minority of cases a helipad at a hospital would make a big difference, golden hour and all that stuff. Quite a few CG taskings looking at Howth CG's web page this year have been jumpers/fallers with spinal, and head injuries and some. Some survived, some unfortunately didn't. But to me it makes no sense having a casualty in a helo flying over Beaumount Hospital to land at Dublin airport only to put the casualty in an ambulance to be driven to Beaumount hospital.
    Where the golden hour is concerned some joined up thinking is needed.

    I am not a professional in the field but the "golden hour" theory was about getting people to emergency care as quickly as spossible. It dated from the Korean War, I think. Nowadays the emphasis is on having advanced paramedics who can do a lot more than the traditional pre-hospital/ambulance personnel. They can do immediately necessary life-saving stuff when they arrive at the casualty and then transport them, rather than the previous paractice which was more about transporting first before really commencng treatment.

    It would be nice to have a helipad at every hospital but many are in land-locked sites where the finite land area is far more valuable as an asset to support patient care facilities which can be used 365 days a year. Where new facilities are built (e.g the new national paediatric hospital) helipad faciltiies are likely to be provided for in the design, AFAIK.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    With the introduction of the formal coast guard helicopter service, one would have thought that the upgrading of helipads would have been part of it. For example, the Rescue 117 programme showed a refueling pad in Kerry (near valentia) which seems relatively new. Was that part of the contract or separate works? It would seem daft - but not impossible - that the hearest hospital to the coast guard base does not have an adequate pad.

    BTW I was trying to look at Waterford Hospital on Google Maps but it most of the city hasn't been photographed by satellite. Nothing on Bing either.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭Growler!!!


    BrianD wrote: »

    BTW I was trying to look at Waterford Hospital on Google Maps but it most of the city hasn't been photographed by satellite. Nothing on Bing either.

    Hi Brian, try the Ordnance Survey website - can't put a link up with the iPhone:o

    We surveyed the city from FL075 last year both digital and photographic


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 324 ✭✭Klunk001


    Seperate work. The refueling pad in Kerry is at Castletownbere. It has been there a long long time but is upgraded when required and does indeed look quite fresh a bit like blacksod on the west coast. Both are used by Irish lights helos and various SAR assets when required for long range taskings.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 410 ✭✭nag


    Klunk001 wrote: »
    Seperate work. The refueling pad in Kerry is at Castletownbere.
    Here biy, Castletownbere 's in Cork like.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 324 ✭✭Klunk001


    nag wrote: »
    Here biy, Castletownbere 's in Cork like.
    Oooppss.. was never very good at geography.:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,698 ✭✭✭tricky D


    Klunk001 wrote: »
    Yes, but in a minority of cases a helipad at a hospital would make a big difference, golden hour and all that stuff. Quite a few CG taskings looking at Howth CG's web page this year have been jumpers/fallers with spinal, and head injuries and some. Some survived, some unfortunately didn't. But to me it makes no sense having a casualty in a helo flying over Beaumount Hospital to land at Dublin airport only to put the casualty in an ambulance to be driven to Beaumount hospital.
    Where the golden hour is concerned some joined up thinking is needed.

    They often fly to Tallaght. Haven't heard or seen them ever taking a casualty to Dublin Airport. They seem to have stopped using the pitch in Beaumont lately. (Open to correction)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 324 ✭✭Klunk001


    The Tallaght pad which is the only suitable pad left in Dublin by the way is available, but has been heavily built around and certainly not as open as it use to be. It's only suitable if the wind is easterly or westerly. After that is either land on at Casement or back to Dublin airport. A football pitch at Beaumount was available up untill last year. That now is also gone.


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