UK to swap JSFs to carrier variant, axe Harrier and Nimrod

Steyr

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/10/19/348641/cameron-uk-to-swap-jsfs-to-carrier-variant-axe-harrier-and-nimrod.html


Aircraft
DATE:19/10/10
SOURCE:Flightglobal.com


Cameron: UK to swap JSFs to carrier variant, axe Harrier and Nimrod
By Craig Hoyle



The BAE Systems Harrier GR9, Nimrod MRA4 and Lockheed Martin’s short take-off and vertical landing F-35B have been confirmed as the main casualties of the UK coalition government’s Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR).

Announcing the results of the review process on 19 October, prime minister David Cameron said the Royal Air Force’s long-delayed Nimrod MRA4 programme is to be cancelled, while the UK’s remaining Harriers will be retired early to safeguard the service’s fleet of Panavia Tornado GR4s, which he says deliver more capability in Afghanistan.

Cameron also slammed the previous Labour government’s selection of the F-35B, and says the UK intends to switch its selection to the JSF’s “more capable, less expensive and longer-range” carrier variant (F-35C pictured below). The decision will also require one of the Royal Navy’s two Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers to be equipped with catapult launch equipment.



Previous plans to greatly increase the size of the RAF’s Boeing CH-47 Chinook fleet have also been watered down, with the Ministry of Defence to acquire just 12 more aircraft. This will increase the RAF’s inventory of the type to 60 aircraft, Cameron says, with an earlier commitment to upgrade the service’s Eurocopter Puma transports to be safeguarded.

Other actions announced by Cameron include plans to cut 5,000 RAF personnel by 2015. This will leave the service with an operating strength of 33,000.

Cancellation of the Nimrod MRA4 programme brings to an end a troubled acquisition programme worth around £3.6 billion – the bulk of which has already been spent. Contracted in 1996, the project was originally to have delivered 21 maritime patrol aircraft, but had subsequently been slashed to just nine.



The decision leaves the UK with no dedicated maritime patrol aircraft capability, and extends a gap caused by the retirement of the RAF’s last Nimrod MR2s earlier this year.

Cameron says the measures to be adopted will result in financial savings worth £4.7 billion over the life of the review period. The process was launched to address a defence budget “Black Hole” totalling £38 billion.

Captain Chaos

I've been reading over on f-16.net that it is not confirmed that the UK will ditch the B for the C. Even though I think they should have went with the C from the start with plans for a conventional carrier which they will now have to modify. The designs for the or one carrier/s, were considered when they were designed so not too much of a deal to do.

The B was a mistake to go with in the JSF program IMO. They should have just went with the CTOL and CV variants. It would have cut the cost and delays of the program significantly.

The main problem is the USMC requirement to have fast jets on their assault class carriers. They have a squadron of Hornets on each USN carrier to make up the numbers from the Cold War USN squadron cut backs.

The USMC do not want to give up their own air power for their Marines which is what ultimately drove the B development.

The UK though put in alot of development work on the B variant and it could mean the loss of a lot of UK jobs if the F-35B order is dropped. Cutting 150 F-35B airframes from the program.

The F-35C is a better option IMO, cheaper, longer range and more internal payload capacity than the B. The C, is probably the best F-35 variant, the only disadvantages is that it has no internal gun like the A and has a lower G limit, but that is set by software only. It could have a 9G limit instead of 7G if a customer wanted it. The USN has lower G requirements on its fighters for longer airframe life because of all the carrier landings and beating they have to put up with. If they had a 9G limit they would wear out faster. The airforce jets get an easier life than carrier jets so they can take the extra maneouvering stress and have just as long an airframe life.

Steyr

Captain Chaos wrote: »

I've been reading over on f-16.net that it is not confirmed that the UK will ditch the B for the C.

Id believe Cameron before f-16.net

Tenger

Captain Chaos wrote: »

I've been reading over on f-16.net that it is not confirmed that the UK will ditch the B for the C.

Turn on SkyNews and listen to the full speech from earlier today. Cameron stated they will install "cats and traps" on the 1st carrier.

I think thats a defo on the F35C variant. He also slates the choice of "most expensive least capable variant" over the F35C with its "longer range, more weapons"

Steyr

Tenger wrote: »

Turn on SkyNews and listen to the full speech from earlier today. Cameron stated they will install "cats and traps" on the 1st carrier.

I think thats a defo on the F35C variant. He also slates the choice of "most expensive least capable variant" over the F35C with its "longer range, more weapons"

Correct, As you can see from my post the picture is the "C" Model of the F-35 so its more or less a given by now.

Will be interesting to see how this pans out eh fellas?

Blazer

The F35 is a piece of shít..if it wasn't keeping so many people in jobs it would have been dumped long ago.
The UK would have been far better off investing in F18s instead and modifying their carriers for this rather than wasting billions on the F35.

Again you only have to look at the eurofighter to see more billions wasted when for the same money they could have bought the F22 from the US...

All I can say is thank christ Ireland doesn't have a real navy or air force..we'd be completely bollixed then as opposed to bollixed

Steyr

Sc@recrow wrote: »

The F35 is a piece of shít..if it wasn't keeping so many people in jobs it would have been dumped long ago.
The UK would have been far better off investing in F18s instead and modifying their carriers for this rather than wasting billions on the F35.

Again you only have to look at the eurofighter to see more billions wasted when for the same money they could have bought the F22 from the US...

F22 is a "show off" piece for LM and is a joke, a real "cold war" relic, The RN/RAF should have SuperHornets your right there, this was discussed on UK Forums as to why they didnt just get Superhornets.

But i also have faith in the Tiffie she is much like the F22 in cold war terms but she is a very capable Airframe with a greater payload/multitude of Armaments to be armed with.

Captain Chaos

Tenger wrote: »

Turn on SkyNews and listen to the full speech from earlier today. Cameron stated they will install "cats and traps" on the 1st carrier.

Didn't see that earlier. That's great to hear, the UK MoD are making the right choice going with the C, the B would be a waste and the money they have pumped into the B development so far is a smaller waste but still.

Alot of time the media take reports out of context and f-16.net pulls these reports apart and tell the truth by the few members there that are in the know, a few work in defence contractors and on aircraft or fly/used to fly them, then there are an equal amount of BS'ers and trolls there but you can spot them easially.

Sc@recrow wrote: »

The F35 is a piece of shít..if it wasn't keeping so many people in jobs it would have been dumped long ago.
The UK would have been far better off investing in F18s instead and modifying their carriers for this rather than wasting billions on the F35.

Again you only have to look at the eurofighter to see more billions wasted when for the same money they could have bought the F22 from the US...

Why get the SuperBug, the F-35C is superior to it in every way or will be. What other countries are looking to buy the Super, now how many are looking to buy the F-35?

The only country to order the Super are Australia and they only bought a few, 24 as a stop gap until the F-35 is ready. The F-35 has/will have better systems and sensors and can carry more weapons over a longer range then the SuperBug. The F-35 is more stealthy than the F-117 when carrying no external weapons, the Super while having a low RCS from the from hemisphere while clean, is easy to detect when carrying weapons.

While the UK could have got Super Hornets as a stop gap if they had suitable carrier ready, why get them later when the carriers are ready and the Super Hornet will be outdated compared to what the F-35 can bring to the table.

And the F-22 is not for sale to any other nation by US Congressional law so they could not have bought it instead of the Tiffy. The UK would have to pay for development of the less capable variant and even then it would have to be OK'ed by congress. Sure Japan and Israel have being trying all these options for years to buy the F-22 and can't. Israel was the first country to be allowed to buy the F-15 when that was top dog back in the '70s.

Israel are going for the F-35 as second choice. It make's no sense buying Supers now unless a country is really stuck for a 4.5 gen fighter when the 5th gen F-35 is around 5-6 years away from export and will last 30-40 years. The Supers won't be tip of the spear for very long, the Hornet design has already used up it's growth potential and they are trying to develop an IRST for it in a centerline drop tank setup.

The F-35 does not need sensor/targeting pods hanging out of it, it's all built in and ready to go. The only thing is the gun pod for the B and C models when needed.

Delancey

What will the RAF replace Nimrod with ? Surely they can't be planning to abandon Maritime Surveillance ?

Captain Chaos

Steyr wrote: »

But i also have faith in the Tiffie she is much like the F22 in cold war terms but she is a very capable Airframe with a greater payload/multitude of Armaments to be armed with.

The Tiffy is not currently cleared to carry much air to ground weapons. Just LGBs and only some aircraft can have the Litening pod fitted currently like the T2 Block 5s (FGR Mk4s). Yes they are being tested with JDAMs, Brimstone, ALARMs, Sea Eagle, and Storm Shadow but they are not currently cleared and most won't till T3 standard.

Some will come online with Tranche 2 aircraft that are currently being delivered, more with Tranche 3. T2s only have basic/modest air to ground modes while the T3 is have a much better software suit for ground ops

The Tiffys will need to be cleared for more weapons as it need to stay out of harms way. The F-22s are currently cleared with JDAMs and SDBs can release then where ever they need to as the fly so high and fast the bombs can glide of at least 20 miles. If anything manages to detect it from carrying external weapons it uses speed to get away. They don't need anymore weapons really with standoff range as the aircrafts sensors and performance means they don't need them. They may get the AGM-154 JSOW and AGM-158 JASSM if it's not cancelled.

On payload capacity the F-22 can carry 6x medium range missiles, 2x short range and 4x 2,000lb JDAMs. A Tiffy can carry roughly the same, less 2 medium range missiles, plus an external fuel tank.

Lets face it in combat they won't be lugging that much about. In the air to air role they will both carry 8 missiles, the Tiffy will need external fuel, the F-22 sometimes carry external tanks. The F-22 can carry 16 air to airs at once, the Tiffy 10-12.

Like wise in the air to ground role, the 22 and Tiffy will likely either lug 2x 2k'ers around or 4-6x 500lb'ers around.

What the Tiffy really needs is the CAPTOR replaced with a good AESA set. That is in the works and when it comes along will really enhance the capabilities of the Tiffy and hopefully can be retro fitted to earlier models if they made the provisions for the cooling systems.

Steyr

Impressive to look at when it finally is all acceptable, some stress i would imagine.

Steyr

delancey42 wrote: »

What will the RAF replace Nimrod with ? Surely they can't be planning to abandon Maritime Surveillance ?

Maybe the new Boeing P8 Poseidon???

Tenger

I think I am missing something with this review.

Originally (well as of a few months ago) the carriers were due in 2014 and 2016 with the F-25B onboard.

So now we have the 1st carrier being launched without ANY appropriate aircraft. Hence the refitting to allow interoperability with US and French aircraft. Whats the delay in the F-35C?

UK papers are claiming no UK aircraft to fly from them until 2019?

Is the F-35C that badly delayed or have the UK suddenly moved to the back of the queue? I would assume the UK would just switch their order from (the still in testing phase) F35B to F35C.

Tenger

On a less serious point heres a nice laugh from 2008:

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/10/19/for_british_air_power_satire_becomes_reality?obref=obnetwork

"..the ideal opponent for the UK using the harrier is an enemy without an airforce.......the Taliban are an ideal opponent...."

" unfortunately the tornado can't fit through the Bakerloo line to stop a spotty teenager blowing up the tube with his shoes...."