Why was REPS cancelled?

TI student

hi folks,

we're students at tipp inst doing a project on reps - we have another post below... anyway, we're trying to find out WHY reps 4 is the final one...? especially when it has been so successful?? no one seems to want to talk about it... we've scoured the teagasc, dept. ag, epa, ifa, farmers journal websites but nothing. hmmm. any insights lads?

thanks!!

johngalway

I had a public disagreement with Eamon O Cuiv on this matter in Clifden not long before last Christmas. His argument was that the Irish state coffers couldn't afford to pay the REPS bill. I told him 45-55% of the REPS money came from Europe, and that REPS was not 100% Irish funded as he stated. He disagreed.

I went home from that meeting and pulled out my final REPS payment certificate.

We were both wrong.

It says on that official REPS 3 slip the money is 75% from Europe.

So, apparently we cannot afford to have a +50% margin coming into Ireland :rolleyes:

That vast majority of that money would be spent on everyday things as well as farming related items. All of which are taxed to the hilt.

Is it any wonder we're in the state we're in with that FF type logic.

The same Govt minister also promised at a meeting in Maam Cross previous to the meeting above, that if farmers accepted a cut (screw the word "adjustment) in their disadvantaged area payments that the REPS scheme would be "safe".

---

This part won't win me any friends in this forum, but I'll say it anyway. I think the REPS scheme should have been "restructured". I think farmers over a certain level of income should have been excluded from a new "restructured" REPS. I don't believe that the officials involved in REPS initially ever thought there would be such a huge uptake of the scheme. A new scheme, targeted to certain areas, and to farmers below a certain level of income would have reduced the bill and kept the scheme going, IMO. Proposals were made for such a scheme but they were dismissed out of hand as with any good idea sent to Government.

Username John

Money!

The government saw it as a way of saving money, simple as... (Even though it was part funded by the EU)

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=SEN20091029.xml&Page=1&Ex=549#N549

Regardless of the benefits the scheme has provided, they didnt see these, they saw it as an expense, and so cut it...

But now that the economy is completely gone to sh't, they're begining to realise that agricultural may actually help get us out of this mess... ironic...

TI student

hi Johngalway,

we were aware of the 75/25 figure which is what made the cancellation even stranger. surely EU funding for environmental protection and conservation would have already been set aside for agreed projects? so as you say, if the Irish gov are getting the tax on everything farmers buy with their reps payment, how can they NOT afford to pay the 25%????

it's kinda baffling.

is that actually what O'Cuiv said?? that ireland couldn't afford it? i might ask him for a comment.

thanks

johngalway wrote: »

I had a public disagreement with Eamon O Cuiv on this matter in Clifden not long before last Christmas. His argument was that the Irish state coffers couldn't afford to pay the REPS bill. I told him 45-55% of the REPS money came from Europe, and that REPS was not 100% Irish funded as he stated. He disagreed.

I went home from that meeting and pulled out my final REPS payment certificate.

We were both wrong.

It says on that official REPS 3 slip the money is 75% from Europe.

So, apparently we cannot afford to have a +50% margin coming into Ireland :rolleyes:

That vast majority of that money would be spent on everyday things as well as farming related items. All of which are taxed to the hilt.

Is it any wonder we're in the state we're in with that FF type logic.

TI student

john,

thanks for that - gonna have a trawl through the debates now.

interestingly, was reading the teagasc 2010 mid year update: it said that "from the perspective of irish agriculture, economic recovery is occurring more quickly than in other irish economic sections. this is largely due to the export orientation of the sector and the high exposure to the uk and third country markets"

irish government. what a bunch of idiots.

Username John wrote: »

Money!

The government saw it as a way of saving money, simple as... (Even though it was part funded by the EU)

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=SEN20091029.xml&Page=1&Ex=549#N549

Regardless of the benefits the scheme has provided, they didnt see these, they saw it as an expense, and so cut it...

But now that the economy is completely gone to sh't, they're begining to realise that agricultural may actually help get us out of this mess... ironic...

johngalway

TI student wrote: »

is that actually what O'Cuiv said?? that ireland couldn't afford it? i might ask him for a comment.

thanks

Yes, we were talking about REPS3, that Ireland couldn't afford it as Ireland was paying for it. He completely dismissed my (wrong) low estimate of 45-55%. Which happened to be in the IFJ not so long before that meeting I think

Please do, I look forward to the response. Deputy Padraig McCormack also attended the meeting, as did several local Connemara councilors including Seán Kyne, Seán Ó Tuairisg, Thomas Welby, and Eileen Mannion. Connemara IFA chaired the meeting I believe it was Martin Gavin.

Seán Kyne & Thomas Welby had some good suggestions at the time though memory on details fail me. If you want a copy of that slip I will scan one for you with certain personal details erased, won't be home until tomorrow night though.

Minister O Cuiv showed how committed he was to Farmers in the West by arriving 1.5 hours late to the meeting and leaving early.

I look forward to reminding his farming supporters of that in the near future.

TBH I'm still hopping mad over that meeting.

TI student

We've just emailed him for a quote. If we get anything back, we'll let you know.

If it's not too much of an inconvenience, we would greatly appreciate a photocopy of the REPS slip.

Please email it to james.oneill@student.tippinst.ie.

We won't need it until Thursday so not too much hurry!!

Thanks again

johngalway wrote: »

Yes, we were talking about REPS3, that Ireland couldn't afford it as Ireland was paying for it. He completely dismissed my (wrong) low estimate of 45-55%. Which happened to be in the IFJ not so long before that meeting I think

Please do, I look forward to the response. Deputy Padraig McCormack also attended the meeting, as did several local Connemara councilors including Seán Kyne, Seán Ó Tuairisg, Thomas Welby, and Eileen Mannion. Connemara IFA chaired the meeting I believe it was Martin Gavin.

Seán Kyne & Thomas Welby had some good suggestions at the time though memory on details fail me. If you want a copy of that slip I will scan one for you with certain personal details erased, won't be home until tomorrow night though.

Minister O Cuiv showed how committed he was to Farmers in the West by arriving 1.5 hours late to the meeting and leaving early.

I look forward to reminding his farming supporters of that in the near future.

TBH I'm still hopping mad over that meeting.

TI student

Johngalway,

Just re-read this and i have a question: is what you're describing as preferable basically the same as the AEOS scheme that has been brought in to replace REPS? It's targeted to the small farmer and linked to Natura 2000. Interested to hear your thoughts on it.

This part won't win me any friends in this forum, but I'll say it anyway. I think the REPS scheme should have been "restructured". I think farmers over a certain level of income should have been excluded from a new "restructured" REPS. I don't believe that the officials involved in REPS initially ever thought there would be such a huge uptake of the scheme. A new scheme, targeted to certain areas, and to farmers below a certain level of income would have reduced the bill and kept the scheme going, IMO. Proposals were made for such a scheme but they were dismissed out of hand as with any good idea sent to Government.

johngalway

TI student wrote: »

Johngalway,

Just re-read this and i have a question: is what you're describing as preferable basically the same as the AEOS scheme that has been brought in to replace REPS? It's targeted to the small farmer and linked to Natura 2000. Interested to hear your thoughts on it.

Here's a nugget I've dug up for you Page 24 of the Connemara View paper, November 2009, all recorded I get a mention

I've applied to join AEOS, not heard anything yet. All I will have to do is manage my grazing of the commonages - which I do already.

I would have much preferred the continuation of the REPS scheme, but targeted at smaller farmers in NHA,SAC etc. areas. I don't think AEOS is a patch on REPS.

TI student

johngalway wrote: »

I don't think AEOS is a patch on REPS.

thanks johngalway! going to have a look at that link now. but as for the above comment - can you please explain your reasons? if you have time, that is

TI student

very interesting article. the challenges your community are facing are huge. i hope the AEOS scheme can be amended and imrpoved for 2011 and that farmers nationwide will be able to survive until then. the alternatives don't bear thinking about for people.

johngalway wrote: »

Here's a nugget I've dug up for you Page 24 of the Connemara View paper, November 2009, all recorded I get a mention

I've applied to join AEOS, not heard anything yet. All I will have to do is manage my grazing of the commonages - which I do already.

I would have much preferred the continuation of the REPS scheme, but targeted at smaller farmers in NHA,SAC etc. areas. I don't think AEOS is a patch on REPS.

johngalway

TI student wrote: »

thanks johngalway! going to have a look at that link now. but as for the above comment - can you please explain your reasons? if you have time, that is

I'd have to go through the handbooks again for that to be honest. There was more reward to REPS, but also more work, which isn't always a bad thing. I had to do up an old shed, build two collecting pens (readymix, post and rail surrounds, nice job), lift old stone walls, preserve a species rich grassland etc. Control weeds in a certain way on that grassland, it was all farm inclusive.

In AEOS, I have to have my sheep in certain places at certain times, that's it. I would do it anyway :rolleyes:

Not much farming thought goes into these schemes IMO. Plenty of office farmers maybe.

My prediction for AEOS is it will be short lived given the state finances.

Farmers were one of the first groups to make "adjustments" because of this recession, they were quite hard for a lot of farmers and continue to be so.

johngalway

To answer your original question, as to why the scheme was canceled. Incompetence. The Govt no longer had bloated surplus' to throw money into fixing problems, and they lack the brain power to problem solve any other way. It was an extremely foolish idea, and solutions provided by others were met with arrogance.

TI student

We're getting a much clearer understanding now... It's a complicated picture, but the impacts seem clear.

Big thanks to both Johns for their advice.

We'll keep you posted if we get a reply from the Minister (though we're not holding our breath)

johngalway wrote: »

To answer your original question, as to why the scheme was canceled. Incompetence. The Govt no longer had bloated surplus' to throw money into fixing problems, and they lack the brain power to problem solve any other way. It was an extremely foolish idea, and solutions provided by others were met with arrogance.

the al kid

Was it not REPS 4 that was discontinued? I think the funding ratio was different in REPS4--55% EU/45% Irish Government butI could be completely wrong about this.Maybe someone else can verify this or otherwise.Either way its a poor state of affairs when money couldnt be found even with the above funding levels as Ireland inc was surely the winner.

Al

johngalway

I can't say about REPS 4 funding as I wasn't given a chance to get into REPS 4. My conversation with the minister was in relation to REPS 3, for which the funding was 75% from Europe.

People in Teagasc didn't have many positive things to say about REPS 4, the phrase "proper balls up" was used in regards to it.

JohnBoy

(I've my non farming hat on here, views may not be popular)


One of the problems with reps was that it started out as money for improving environmental aspects of farming, but it basically ended up as an income support.

Once you'd been in reps for a number of years you basically had little extra to do to collect your cheque. (and from what I understand there may have been complaints from europe over this that the money wasnt really being used to raise environmental standards any more, merely maintain them)

Realistically reps should have been retained on the basis that it was such good value for money for the state, but there should have been a participation time limit.

The other reason it was cancelled is that it was one of many dept of agriculture schemes that had no budget limit, it's budget was defined by the number of subcribers, a similar mess to the FWMS which was so oversubscribed that it's still not paid out fully.



Just some of my random thoughts

blue5000

I joined reps 4 last yr, the funding was cut by about 20% later last yr, compared to what I thought I'd be getting. I presume it is the Irish gov that cut their portion and the eu portion wasn't cut? Anyone else know more on this?

5live

johngalway wrote: »

Yes, we were talking about REPS3, that Ireland couldn't afford it as Ireland was paying for it. He completely dismissed my (wrong) low estimate of 45-55%. Which happened to be in the IFJ not so long before that meeting I think

Please do, I look forward to the response. Deputy Padraig McCormack also attended the meeting, as did several local Connemara councilors including Seán Kyne, Seán Ó Tuairisg, Thomas Welby, and Eileen Mannion. Connemara IFA chaired the meeting I believe it was Martin Gavin.

Seán Kyne & Thomas Welby had some good suggestions at the time though memory on details fail me. If you want a copy of that slip I will scan one for you with certain personal details erased, won't be home until tomorrow night though.

Minister O Cuiv showed how committed he was to Farmers in the West by arriving 1.5 hours late to the meeting and leaving early.

I look forward to reminding his farming supporters of that in the near future.

TBH I'm still hopping mad over that meeting.

Sorry john. I am still laughing about O Cuiv. At least he came to the meeting. I was an officer in local ifa branch a few years ago and had a number of queries from a meeting to pose to our local government TD Tommy Mac. He refused to meet us on 5 separate occasions and refused to speak to me on the phone at HIS convenience any time day or night. I could, however, talk to his mother!!!!!!!!:o. I pointed out to his representative that it wasnt his mother that was elected but him and i had a right to meet and talk to my TD. I was promised a call 3 years ago and occasionally when i am bored i ring and remind them just for the craic. O Cuiv may have deficiencies but he will still meet you. Unlike our star:mad:

Feargal as Luimneach

johngalway wrote: »

I can't say about REPS 4 funding as I wasn't given a chance to get into REPS 4. My conversation with the minister was in relation to REPS 3, for which the funding was 75% from Europe.

People in Teagasc didn't have many positive things to say about REPS 4, the phrase "proper balls up" was used in regards to it.

What is wrong with REPS 4?

The_Conductor

REPS4 funding differed from the previous schemes, and is 45% national funds, 55% EU funds. Previous schemes were 25% national, 75% EU. The cost associated with REPS 4 is thus significantly higher for the Irish exchequer, than for previous schemes.

The original incentive for joining REPS4 was the higher payment (17% higher than REPS3), however with the stricter guidelines, and the cancellation of the bonus payment over REPS3 (in the last budget), it was no longer as attractive an option as it might have been.

The current REPS4 scheme is only legislated for up to 2013- when a total renegotiation at EU level would be required, if a replacement scheme were to be put in place. It is thought that a replacement scheme will be negotiated, but with a different emphasis than previous schemes- possibly focusing on climate change for example- and how farming practices could alleviate some of the possible changes occurring.

The Nitrates Directive, and the limited nature of Ireland's derogation from the directive, is yet another reason why REPS is seen to have had a less significant impact than it might otherwise have done.

It will be interesting to see where we go from here.

Pharaoh1

The short answer to the original question is that there was/is no money and also because they could get away with it ( I know that there were a few protests but nothing like say the over 70's medical card episode)

I think that almost half of all farmers ended up in the REPS scheme at its peak. Many (especially beef farmers) logically concluded that the business of farming is by and large not profitable so better to be doing REPS work and get a guaranteed payment. This was my simple logic also.
I don't think the body politic and indeed the public at large grasped the notion that much of the actual farming enterprise is not profitable even though Teagasc for example provide simple data to prove this every year.
There is a suspicion that farming is really a lucrative business with a lot of whinging and smart accountancy practice to hide everything.

The overall bill for REPS eventually ran into several hundred million euro and I have no doubt it would have continued to rise as more farmers came around to the thinking outlined above.
The net result of course will be the removal of hundreds of billions from the agri economy and the key question is what will be the result.
Will commodity prices rise to compensate farmers for the loss of REPS income?
Will a large number of farmers stop their loss making production because they cant afford to continue without REPS compensation.
If so will jobs in processing, merchants etc.. be lost.

This would be an interesting study.

barbersfort

Its a pity REPS was discontinued as it was one scheme that encouraged farmers to maintain and farm in a far more sustainable and environmentally sensitive way than might have otherwise been the case. Measures such as hedgerow growing/maintenance, clover sowing, tree-planting and watercourse fencing have produced many benefits for the Irish countryside, e.g. less nitrogen requirements, better water quality and cover/food for wildlife. Without such financial inducements for farmers , such efforts may sadly be less in the future.