Raising the power limit of airsoft in Ireland?

Avose

Firstly, lets get the obvious out of the way.

My understanding of the irish airsoft laws :
Airsoft guns in Ireland must be under 1 Joule or 328 FPS (w/ .2g BBs). The airsoft rifles can be legally modified to go over this limit, but it is then classified as a firearm, and you must aquire a licence.
Anyone caught using a gun over this limit will be hit with a hefty fine, and/or a jail sentence.

How many of you would like for this limit to be raised? how many of you like this limit? and how many of you dont really mind?
You can leave your answer in the poll and/or comment

If we got enough people to maybe sign a petition or something like that, Do you think the idea of the limit being raised could work? or would we all just be wasting our time.

I personally would love to be able to have a much more powerful sniper rifle, and i think the laws America use could also be applied here. We could use some or all of their laws, maybe even adding a few of our own. Maybe we could settle for a 1.5J limit. That would get us up to about 400 FPS, which i think would be a much better cap.

Leave a comment and take part in the poll.

Thanks,
Avose

swiftblade

Im perfectly happy with 328 FPS. And frankly this has been disscussed hundreds of times with the same out come. We are lucky we have a 1 Joule limit. Germany has a .5 Joule limit.

thermo

Avose wrote:

The facts : The airsoft rifles can be legally modified to go over this limit, but it is then classified as a firearm, and you must aquire a licence.
Avose

eh NO..... If your going to state " the facts" at least get it right!

Witcher

Avose wrote: »

If we got enough people to maybe sign a petition or something like that, Do you think the idea of the limit being raised could work? or would we all just be wasting our time

Wasting our time no doubt about it, as stated in several threads on this topic recently. We should show our ability to police what we have before looking for an increase. Showing that we are responsible will give us some elbow room, but not for a very long time yet.

Avose

thermo wrote: »

eh NO..... If your going to state " the facts" at least get it right!

ok tell me what i got wrong andd i will happily change it

Puding

you can not licence an airsoft device, it is under 1 joule or not at all

Avose

OK so, is the main reason most people seem to be fine with the 328FPS limit because

They dont think we would get it, but they would actually like it if they were allowed?
They honestly really like the 328FPS because its a nice balance?
They find themselves fortunate that they dont need orange muzzles/two-tone coloured parts?

Puding

all of the above really, we get to play without colour rifs, the joule limit was chosen for safety based on available research and a lot of time and effort has gone into showing authority that 1 joule was safe, trying to raise the limit know would go against a lot of what was used to try and make airsoft safe over the last couple of years

yes an increase in certain areas like bolt action rifles could add to the sport but tbh it is not going to happen any time in the near future, the only chance would be if eu wide restriction came in and in that case everyone is more likely to come down to 1j rather than some go up in limit

Irishmaster

Not a sniper myself but they should have a slightly higher fps than aegs i suppose!

Shiva

Puding wrote: »

yes an increase in certain areas like bolt action rifles could add to the sport but tbh it is not going to happen any time in the near future,

Yeah, I'd like to see that too, but as you say.....not going to happen for some time.
Even if the Powers That Be woke up tomorrow and decided it'd be ok to have 450 FPS sniper rifles, I think the sport is too immature here yet.

Very hard to imagine the vast majority of airsofters here sticking to a minimum engagement distance. Not because they're stupid, or new, or overly aggressive....just because as a concept I think it takes a bit of experience to get learn to play that way.

Puding

I do not trust some people with 1 joule let alone anything more

Avose

Thanks for the replies so far
my View was pretty much the same as shiva and puding, i would like higher FPS in a bolt action rifle, but it does seem very unlikly that we would be allowed raise the limit

Im loving all the views and reasons, keep them coming

Inari

I'm happy with the limit as it is. It's a good power. Not too strong, not too weak. It's effective for pistols & rifles etc. It gives an interesting element to the game knowing that a pistol can shoot as far as your primary, which means you have to play a little bit more tactically.

If I were looking for an increase, I'd be rather strange about it. The one thing I would like to see a small increase in would be a 328fps limit for 8mm support guns - just to give them more purpose. Snipers, in my eyes, have what they need - the issue is with the sniper, not the rifle. It's a musket, it's not going to be THAT precise.

Kurbinator

Happy as hell with the limit as is.
Sure I'd like to be able to have a more powerful fps on my sniper L96 but then again it is Ireland we live in and I could see the sport become more expensive if the fps were increased.
Imagine it 400 / 500 fps min but you need a licence to play airsoft from now on.They'd nearly make it a bi anual or even an anual one and knowing the government we'd be talking ~ 100 euro a year or more.They'd find a way to hit the sites also to line the coffers.><
It's been said each time somebody puts up a poll like this so 'ere we go again.Be happy we even have Airsoft in this country.
And remember ROI doesn't just mean Republic of Ireland it also means Rip-off Ireland.Don't give the fat cats ammo give it to me I'm low on BB's

TheDoc

I voted for don't care.

It would be nice to have more but its not like its a fundamental problem in the game.

Creating better sites, better games and better scenarios would be a more primary concern for me along with having honest gamers.

After we have that bolted down I might look into having an fps increase.

So we shall come back to this in ten years

Kurbinator

make it 20

hairyman

I was lucky enough to test a US spec(450FPS) JG AUG A3(stateside of course) and I could not see any discernible difference in range or accuracy compared to some of the well sorted 1J replicas over here,,,I am very happy with the 1J law over here,its very well suited to our regular field size and also allows the user to use one replica for a number of different scenarios(CQB,field etc) not to mention that I am certain that the 1J rule must go a long way to the overall reliability and prolonged usability of any AEG,take TM for example,you just cant break the things .

I have never even tried to snipe so I cannot comment on the Pro's/con's of the 1J law in relation to them.

All in all,,yes I am perfectly happy with the 328FPS limit.

Kurbinator

If I had to guess I'd say the range would be better on bolt action guns.I'd like to know though.
Ehhh not that it makes that much difference to me I prefer to TRY and focus more on the stealth part over long range combat

This content has been removed.

Gatling

one thing i notice people never post about when talking about higher fps in the uk and the states is the mininmum engagement rules for the likes of 400+fps snipers ,you may or may not gain any extra range upgrading a sniper to a high output then be told you cant engage a target till there 25 meters away and knowing our luck we'd get a 30 meter engagement rule ,
for a some of our sites been 25+meters away leaves not a lot a lot decent shooting positions ,

bullets

I'd like a higher limit.

I have no problems with Skirmish sites insisting on a 1j limit but I think its stupid that if an airsoft gun strays over 1j even by a little bit that its considered a firearm by law. I Just think thats utter bollox.

Fair enough having Skirmish Sites limited for safety fireing
at other poeple, but for Plinkers and non skirmishers I would like to be able to fire over 1j if I choose to and to be able to purchase airsoft guns over 1j and still have them classified as airsoft and not big bad nasty real guns.

There is nothing in the law to say that you cannot licence
an airsoft gun over 1j, there simply is no serial number on
one so it may prove to be difficult to process through the
Gardai's systems aka pulse.

With that said. Paintball Markers are over 1j and also dont
have serial numbers. Before as far as I am aware you simply needed Permission from your local Super intendant in order have one.

Section 3.1 on the FCA1 which is the form filled out
for "FIREARM CERTIFICATE APPLICATION" has a specific
check box that allows you to select "Paint ball gun"

There is also another box you can tick called "other"
that could be used for a >1j airsoft gun.

Also if an Airsoft Gun is over 1j it could be classified as Airgun or Air-rifle or Airpistol ALL which are covered in section 3.1 of the application form. Even if it does not fire metal ammunition.

Only disadvantage is that it would cost you 80 Euros every 3 years just to have a licence for one.
(And if your like me and have lots of guns you would be pretty poor if you had to licence them all)

Link to the application form is here:
http://garda.ie/Documents/User/FCA1%20Firearm%20Certificate%20Application%5B2%5D.pdf


One MAJOR issue I would see would be when filling in the section of how
much Ammo you are applying for!!!!!
Enter a couple of hundred thousand and it would probably break Pulse.

The 0ther thing is you could be in for one hell of a headache when it
came to proving you were proof of competence and I think for first
time applicants there are now things like firearms competence courses
in place that poeple do before they get a licence.

In theory you could do it, in practice its probably not worth the effort.
~B

SNAKEDOC

my face would disagree with raising the 1 joule. there are too many people that play only every so often and to be honest i wouldn't trust with a spud gun, running around sites and despite the safety warnings blast all round them. i was in the office block and a block sprayed around a corner blindly and caught me four times in the face on the nose the lip and twice on the cheek bone. all hits pi**ing blood and stung like a son of a bitch. can you imagine the injuries if the limit was raised. count me out.

OzCam

Not going to happen.

This topic was last discussed in July, please see http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055960967 for details.
Several posts in that thread have links to documents anyone trying to raise this issue needs to read before proceeding.

Here's what I said then...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66784944&postcount=33

We are many years away from showing ourselves capable of being trusted with higher limits, if ever. And in any case, the limits in Scotland and England are likely to be reduced to 1J soon enough. The current exceptions for certain rifles on certain sites will probably be eliminated - and that's if airsoft isn't banned completely in Scotland.

1J is provably safe. Anything higher simply isn't.

OzCam wrote: »

Save your energy for something achievable.

sliabh

I am playing in Austria where there is a Gentleman's agreement (legally I think the limits are about 5-6J) to limit AEGs to 400 fps, semi-auto to 450, and bolt action to 500. In the games I have played I can't say I have seen any real difference to when I play in 1J Ireland. So I would have to say I don't see the need to change.

The only argument for changing the limit is for snipers. But maybe instead we can agree to reduce AEG power to 0.5J like in Germany, and the sniperz can stay at 1J to give them an advantage.

How about that? Any takers, anyone, anyone at all? :-)

Stonewolf

Or maybe people could just learn how to snipe instead of just assuming sniper rifles were some kind of magic hit stick.

thermo

As I've said to snipers here wanting 600fps limits on their bolties, don't compensate for your lack of skill with a more powerful gun, compensate for the lack of power with learning better field craft and brushing up your skills required in the sniping role.

Higher limits won't make us all better players, in fact higher limits will make a certain percentage of players just plain dangerous.

Inari

Also forgetting that a sniper rifle in airsoft, is a sleek-looking musket

thermo

Inari wrote: »

Also forgetting that a sniper rifle in airsoft, is a sleek-looking musket

How so?

Inari

Bullets are shaped, not spheres. They cut through the air to find their mark. BB's do not. People have grand visions of sniping, pulling off crack shots - they think they're Martin Riggs etc.

The problem is BB's don't work like that, and power alone won't fix that - it just compensates, as you pointed out. Sniping in Airsoft is a completely different ball game to real life. You don't have the same effective range, or gear to work with. As such, your field craft comes much more to the forefront (I know it's to the forefront in Real life aswell) - and in Airsoft, it's a deal breaker. If you're not committed to it, airsoft sniping will be boring.

Sniping in airsoft has no proper advantages - you take a slower ROF because you like A) the challenge, the look. Airsoft is 80% aesthetic, which is why GBB's feel so much cooler than their AEG counterpart

Puding

true, as they say power is nothing without control , but ......

Skil + tuned bolt action + high fps = great fun

NakedDex

The one advantage for operators of bolt action rifles that a higher energy rating will give them is cutting down the flight time of the round fired (notice the complete lack of the word "sniper" there. VERY few bolty owners can snipe).
I've been on the receiving end of long-ish range fire from bolties several times. You can always tell that's what it is because it'll be a single round coming from seemingly nowhere (assuming they've learned to not stand in the open by that stage). If you notice it early enough, or if you spotted the shooter before/as they fired, you can actually stand there and watch it come toward you and take a side-step at the last second.
I know you can technically do this with AEG fire from range too, but at least with it you can compensate for such things by firing a burst. If you see one round slowly making it's way to you, you tend to play with it. If you see ten, you tend to duck or run.

Increasing the bolt action limit would at least negate this phenomenon, allowing the shooter to be a bit more accurate (subject to actual skill being present) since the round would be less noticeable in the air, would strike it's target quicker and would allow the shooter to engage moving targets.
Let's face it, with wind, energy bleed-off, smoothbore accuracy, bb characteristics, atmospheric effects, compression consistency, Bernoulli effects and a host of other factors, it's not impossible, but it's usually done with a serious amount of luck.

touge_drift

1joule hurts as is... i dont want it any higher. i know im hit already with this power i dont want to bleed or be hurt.

im not sure id still play if it jumped up to the 400-500fps range

dimbob1

C'MON!!!!! please vote for a bigger limit, i want a daisy pump action!!!!!! PLEASE

Witcher

dimbob1 wrote: »

C'MON!!!!! please vote for a bigger limit, i want a daisy pump action!!!!!! PLEASE

Voting on the poll isn't going to to have any effect on the law...and even if you could get a Daisy pump you couldn't use it airsofting anyway..it fires metal projectiles:rolleyes:

Knight990

As much as it's an interesting area to think about, I'd really doubt it'll ever change. The people at the top have far more worrying things to think about than us and our Joule limit

CpcRc

I believe that 1 joule is perfectly reasonable for AEGs.
The UK has it, and American CQB limits are usually around 325-350 fps which is around the one joule mark.
This shows that a 1 joule limit works in other countries so there's no reason for it to not work here aswell. I also know that under some conditions that other countries have higher limits.
But, correct me if I'm wrong here, the energy necessary to penetrate the eyeball (being recognised as the most vulnerable part of the body and hence most dangerous place to get hit in airsoft) is 1.35 joules.
This means that anything more powerful than that poses a serious risk of injury. This doesn't give much of a window for increasing the limit.
Our AEGs work fine at one joule and although they must be downgraded to 1 Joule before they can be sold/used in Ireland, would you prefer to keep your eyes?
I know that (provided you have the skill in the first place) it would be great to have bolt action rifles that do have a slight range advantage over AEGs, because of power, for added realism. But with the right upgrades, experience and skill this is possible with the 1 joule limit.
I'm happy with the 1 joule limit and although I wouldn't might modifying my AEG to be slightly more powerful, I know that there are enough advantages to the 1 Joule and there isn't a need for an increase.
If any facts were wrong, sorry. But I did research them(google and forums).
P.S. I agree with the other people about not trusting some airsofters with a 1 Joule airsoft gun let alone a more powerful one.

Lemming

CpcRc wrote: »

I believe that 1 joule is perfectly reasonable for AEGs.
The UK has it,

...snip...

If any facts were wrong, sorry. But I did research them(google and forums).
P.S. I agree with the other people about not trusting some airsofters with a 1 Joule airsoft gun let alone a more powerful one.

Some UK sites tend to use either a rule of thumb of 328 +10% leeway which gives you roughly 360-ish or simply state a maximum of 350fps for an AEG capable of automatic operation. The absolute hard limit for any "self-loading" airsoft gun is 371fps (1.35j I think?) and any higher will stray into firearms territory. You can however run manual-loading airsoft guns (e.g. bolt-action) up to 500fps.

With those increases (re. 500fps) come minimum engagement ranges and many UK sites/events insist that anyone running a high-fps airsoft gun carry a backup (e.g. pistol or SMG). I've encountered at least one site that will not allow players run anything higher than 420fps without first having being 'shadowed' for a while by an experienced marshal to ensure they are capable and understand the term "minimum engagement range", although most sites I've been to take a dim view of people being careless with their engagement ranges regardless. I have also only ever encountered a single site/event that allowed the 371fps limit mentioned earlier.

It is interesting to note that in Northern Ireland, the 1J limit is observed although I'm unsure if that's by site or by law, and best left answered by one of our northern brethren.

OzCam

By Law, same as here.

MonkeyGuy

I just like to add to the bolt action rifle debate. In my experience, the hop up in bolt action rifles give them more range than an AEG anyway. So extra fps wouldn't help there, it'd just mean we'd have to watch how far away we are before we pull the trigger. (When I say "we" I don't consider myself a sniper but I do own a BAR 10 and it seems to be bolt action rifle owners who aren't actually "snipers" that want more fps) If I've ever learned anything while researching airsoft sniping, it's that hop ups, tightbore barrel and better seals will make your gun more accurate and give you more range, moreso than fps alone. And anyway it's not just about having range, it's about field-craft, positioning, patience , etc. Correct me if I'm wrong about anything, just please don't be rude about it.

Silent Death

Ok my Two cents.

The limit at the moment for AEG's are fine. The size of most if not all sites means that the "1 Joule" limit is plenty for the kind of encounters you will face. The range that we come into contact with other player on a regular basis suits most AEG's fine, adding more power means more pain.... on the odd occasion on the larger sites where you see people moving far out you would need a ridiculous increase in power to get the needed range and not to mention a bran spanking new internal system to handle it. By the time you shoot several thing will happen, one the wind will pull at he BB and two the sound will alert the person(s) you are shooting at and they will simply step aside the path of the BB. I have done that loads (Matrix Style ).

However with a.... sniper,aka bolt action, aka not actually a sniper (lot of grief over this part ive noticed) a difference in power would be useful but not needed. Im a sniper and proud of it and im not half bad if i say so myself. The only reason you would increase the power is to allow the bolt action user the ability to engage at a slightly increased distance and have a slight accuracy increase at closer ranges.
To be honest though, i have sniped for a while and even at the same power as most other players i do just fine, in fact on my team when we have a game among ourselves they are more worried when i snipe than when i have an AEG
So in conclusion it would be NICE to have an increase in power but really we dont need it, in our more confined game areas its pointless and sore. If we were to have an increase it should be for bolt action guns and only be increased by .5J, its plenty.
Buy alas if you do not agree with my two cents move abroad to where is no limit to the power even hop across the pond to Scotland, they use this method and so far it works. Also if you move abroad you will avoid the media monster "The Budget 2011"

And that essay is my Two Cents, i hope you enjoyed

This content has been removed.

MonkeyGuy

AGB_Ghost wrote: »

the only problem I can see is the fact that people chrono the guns in customs and enforce the 328 rule on them, so it puts me personally off buying an AEG from a foreign retailers

On the flipside this encourages us to buy from Irish retailers. I'm not just being patriotic, I could go on about recession, NAMA, IMA blah blah but I won't. The way I see it the more Irish airsoft shops there are and the bigger they are, the better value we'll get in future. Further down the line Airsoft becomes more popular, accepted etc.... All good things am I right?

This content has been removed.

NakedDex

Dear everyone who is completely disregarding basic physics,

Marginally higher energy limits do not equate to longer range, they equate to faster projectiles.
This is not an issue of range. Stop mentioning range.

Yours,
Dex

Stercus Accidit

You would get better potential range with a higher muzzle energy, or are you making the point that it would be negligeable without using a hevier bb also?

NakedDex

What I'm saying is that the increase in energy versus the increase in range is not a linear comparison. Yes, higher muzzle energy will give increased range, but if your rifle is getting 50 yards at 1J, it's not going to get 75 yards at 1.5J, or 100 yards at 2J.
The myth is that a 520fps @.2g bolt action rifle will automatically be able to hit a point target at least 100 yards away, where the truth is vastly different and rather unpredictable due to the variances in the rifle configuration and type, components used and atmospheric conditions. Even, as you know Sam, values such as height above sea level need to be accounted for.

The sort of increases people want will never happen. The best you could probably hope for would be an increase to 1.5J for manual loading rifles (ie, bolt action). This is effectively 400fps with .2g rounds. While there will be a slight (and I emphasise slight) increase in range, the main benefit will come from the velocity of the round and the subsequent decrease in the amount of time the round will be in flight. This is the significant benefit for accuracy and sheer ability to hit targets without them being able to dodge slow-moving rounds which have bled off the bulk of their energy due to air resistance within the first 20 yards.

Sure, you get the limit increased to 2.5J, there'll be an increase in range that's more tangible, but it's not going to happen. Whatever chance of a .5J increase there may be, there's absolutely none of 1.5J.

It's also somewhat misleading to be speaking of the limits in round velocity when the standard velocity marker is based on a .2g round, something that I've never seen a sniper actually use. For example, take the 1.5J theoretical limit from above. At .2g, that's 400fps. Pretty fast, right? Well at .3g, that's back to 328fps, and the .3g round is infinitely more common among snipers than a .2g.

MonkeyGuy

It's funny how you see some people, Americans in particular, talking about their bolt actions on Youtube etc. "OMFG 500 FPS SNIPER MAKES GUY BLEED" what's the use in making a guy bleed?

When I use my BAR 10 I use .23s and I'd like to go heavier. People shouldn't boast about their BBs breaking the sound barrier (or a guy's skin) they should boast about how they can fire very seldom but be right on target every time and be quiet while they're at it. Anytime I've seen the "teflon mod" on any video the crack out of the gun gets distorted because it's too loud for the mic. In my opinion that totally ruins the idea of a spring powered rifle in airsoft.

Nothing annoys me more than seeing someone shoot a dozen times at a cd or something metal, only to hit it once, but because it breaks or gets dented, they think their rifle is a beast? I don't consider myself an excellent marksman, but it wouldn't take me that many shots to hit a cd from range. I'd rather hear the PING or POP when I hit a target with a 1 joule rifle, rather than the CRASH or SMASH of a more powerful one. Because in a game that can be the difference between, "Hit! Great shot man" and "Ouch what the f**k? HIT!" And I know for sure which one I'd rather be saying. That being said the second one happens enough as it is!

Sorry, bit of a rant there I'm sick and bored. Back to the main question, raising the power limit, I'd be totally against it. I agree with all the reasons other people have given, it's basically all that's been said. Even just for bolt actions, raising the limit would encourage people to DIY it with things like the teflon mod. Seeing as how most people don't have access to a chrono, a lot of people will end up with hot guns, which will cause our sport to be threatened again. I'm going to be polite and say thanks you for reading this and sorry for wasting your time!

Puding

MonkeyGuy wrote: »

It's funny how you see some people, Americans in particular, talking about their bolt actions on Youtube etc. "OMFG 500 FPS SNIPER MAKES GUY BLEED" what's the use in making a guy bleed?

When I use my BAR 10 I use .23s and I'd like to go heavier. People shouldn't boast about their BBs breaking the sound barrier (or a guy's skin) they should boast about how they can fire very seldom but be right on target every time and be quiet while they're at it. Anytime I've seen the "teflon mod" on any video the crack out of the gun gets distorted because it's too loud for the mic. In my opinion that totally ruins the idea of a spring powered rifle in airsoft.

Nothing annoys me more than seeing someone shoot a dozen times at a cd or something metal, only to hit it once, but because it breaks or gets dented, they think their rifle is a beast? I don't consider myself an excellent marksman, but it wouldn't take me that many shots to hit a cd from range. I'd rather hear the PING or POP when I hit a target with a 1 joule rifle, rather than the CRASH or SMASH of a more powerful one. Because in a game that can be the difference between, "Hit! Great shot man" and "Ouch what the f**k? HIT!" And I know for sure which one I'd rather be saying. That being said the second one happens enough as it is!

well tbh that is more an issue with youtube, lots of people using high powered airsoft devices responsibly , seen people do stupid things with high rof set ups, stupidity is far from unique

people abuse airsoft device just as real firearms are misused by idouts

MonkeyGuy

Puding wrote: »

well tbh that is more an issue with youtube, lots of people using high powered airsoft devices responsibly , seen people do stupid things with high rof set ups, stupidity is far from unique

people abuse airsoft device just as real firearms are misused by idouts

I kid you not I saw a guy with a 500 fps p90 running on a 11.1 and he shot an entire mag at another guy (who actually volunteered) to see if it hurt? That's the type of thing I'd hate to see in Ireland.

Puding

MonkeyGuy wrote: »

I kid you not I saw a guy with a 500 fps p90 running on a 11.1 and he shot an entire mag at another guy (who actually volunteered) to see if it hurt? That's the type of thing I'd hate to see in Ireland.

unfortunately such stupidity already exists

MonkeyGuy

The stupidity is there, but luckily the 500 fps isn't!