Hitler is becoming popular Again?

jock101

I heard on a news bulletin today that a report found 20pc of Germans would like a strong willed figure like Hitler to run Germany today. Overlooking the fact that he would be considered a great statesman and leader if the issues he had about the Jews and his policies towards them during WW2!

Oh before you ask, it was either Newstalk or RTE radio 1. I heard it?

murphaph

Sounds like BS to me but 20% is enough to overcome the safety 5% figure which all parties must overcome to get a single seat in the Bundestag, so if it's true we'll be seeing Adolf II pretty soon.

However, like I said, it's probably BS. I don't know a single German who would subject their nation to that again. Germans tend to learn lessons from their mistakes (and before anyone mentions WWI, we all know that was a pissing contest between the great empires of Europe at the time).

If we only had a list and a 5% rule to keep numbskulls like Jackie Healy Rae out of our NATIONAL PARLIAMENT we would be doing well.

johngalway

Just what we need, WW3, I was getting well fed up of only seeing WW2 films, don't even mention WW1, that's so last century.

Anyway, yeah I heard that report too. I guess they didn't mind the 20 something million Soviets that got killed? Not all of which were Germanys fault mind.

jock101

johngalway wrote: »

Just what we need, WW3, I was getting well fed up of only seeing WW2 films, don't even mention WW1, that's so last century.

Anyway, yeah I heard that report too. I guess they didn't mind the 20 something million Soviets that got killed? Not all of which were Germanys fault mind.

I agree im fed up with the WW2 FPS games too!:D

dan_d

Yeah I read that this evening in the Irish times - apparently it's a poll that's done every year in Germany, and the percentage has been rising steadily for the last 10 years. Here's the link to the article.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2010/1015/1224281154659.html

PeterIanStaker

Saw this programme on TV about the Neo-Nazi movements, they arent just a fringe thing, its scary the level of support they have.

Killer Pigeon

Yes, he's getting quite popular, particularly amongst this crowd of people ...

http://hipsterhitler.com/

yoshytoshy

Hitler is such a crap name ,we need a new furher.

roy rodgers

hitler was a legend.

I think he must of been irish, took no SH#t, done things his way, and never really liked foreigners..

Things havent really changed we are still under the german rule with the banks and the euro!!!

caseyann

They have him all over the museum now i saw on tv today. Taboo of Hitler leaving.

Liam Byrne

jock101 wrote: »

I heard on a news bulletin today that a report found 20pc of Germans would like a strong willed figure like Hitler to run Germany today.

Maybe there's a pattern of 20% in every country who will vote a certain way no matter what damage or objectionable stuff is done ?

It'd explain a lot.

d22ontour

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

its scary the level of support they have.

Hardly, ideals are somewhat close to olden times, methods are somewhat different to the genocidal response from ww2....What is there to fear from a legitimate political party whose ideals may or may not result in a better Europe ?

CiDeRmAn

Just listening to two family members giving out about Africans here, replace the word Nigerian with Jew and I can see how an economically comprised country slips into the arms of facism, Into the arms of a government that bases itself on fearmongering, encouraging xenophobia, distracting the masses with talk of demonic influences among us.

randylonghorn

Severe recession often makes a populace yearn for strong leaders (taken to the extreme, dictators) who will make all the decisions and "save the day".

Be careful what you wish for.

roy rodgers

randylonghorn wrote: »

Severe recession often makes a populace yearn for strong leaders (taken to the extreme, dictators) who will make all the decisions and "save the day".

Be careful what you wish for.

well we need a leader.. bring back bertie:D

Rockery Woman

Popular again!

How can anyone think a Hitler-Fuhrer type would be the one to lead a country through recession.

All the horrors aside - he broke his country in the end and it was the leaders who followed that made Germany what it is today.

There will always be extremeists though. Perhaps younger people see the atrocities of WW2 as ancient history and are viewing his leadership history through rose-coloured lenses?

Im certain most Germans are ashamed of their past. Pope Benedict was forced to join Hitler Youth as a boy, as were many other boys at the time.

His leadership was based on fear, brutality, and cruelty. A visit to Auschwitz would wake these people up.

Mahatma coat

What a lot of people seemto forget is that most Germans who Joined the NDSAP or HitlerJungen did it Voluntarily.

It was only after they lost that it was decided that they had ben tricked into it, Ask a German in 1946 his opinion of Hitler and you can be Sure it was wildly different than his opinion in 1941.

People want the Strong leadership and feelng of 'Gezahlt'(Sp) Togetherness that NAtional Socialisim Brought.

Also it wasnt TOTALLY evil, they had a few good ideas too, but that gets overshadowed by the General lunacy with almost everyone

GSF

Its an interesting topic to discuss with Germans. The widespread belief is that there is a certain level of sympathy for some of the beliefs of Hitler among some of the more mainstream right wing political parties. This probably amounts to little more than the rantings of backwoods members of say FF or the Uk Conservatives but it would suggest the poll results are not totally wide of the mark.

Of course bar stool posturing is very different from actually putting anything into practice.

oncevotedff

roy rodgers wrote: »

well we need a leader.. bring back bertie:D

No thanks.

tororosso

roy rodgers wrote: »

hitler was a legend.

I think he must of been irish, took no SH#t, done things his way, and never really liked foreigners..

Things havent really changed we are still under the german rule with the banks and the euro!!!

On a serious note the popularity of some of that ideology relating to disliking foreigners is quite possibly linked to the level of immigration that Germany has experienced since the 1960s with particular emphasis on Turkish nationals. The largest ethnic minority in Germany are Turks and there are currently roughly 3.5 million people of Turkish origin in Germany. Germans who are unhappy with the level of immigration in their country are more likely to find a leader such as Hitler appealing...

Memnoch

d22ontour wrote: »

Hardly, ideals are somewhat close to olden times, methods are somewhat different to the genocidal response from ww2....What is there to fear from a legitimate political party whose ideals may or may not result in a better Europe ?

I just want to understand more clearly what you are trying to say here. The way I'm reading this post it sounds like you are saying there was nothing wrong with Hitler's ideals only the way he put them into practise and you are advocating a similar mindset today because it will lead to a "better" Europe?

metrovelvet

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

Just listening to two family members giving out about Africans here, replace the word Nigerian with Jew and I can see how an economically comprised country slips into the arms of facism, Into the arms of a government that bases itself on fearmongering, encouraging xenophobia, distracting the masses with talk of demonic influences among us.

I think in times of crisis we look for a strong father figure. Even if it is Darth Vadar.

peasant

Not surprised really.

During the latest so called "financial crisis" politicians, governements and and other people in power have shown once again that they are basically just out for their own good and corrupt and not trustworthy ...that's where the leader/dictator thing comes in.

In times of economic contraction multiculturalism goes out the window first and this notion of "looking after your own people first" gains traction.

Not just a German phenomenon, happens everywhere. Germans just have the "advantage" that they've been there and bought the T-shirt and that you can put a name to the phenomenon.


I doubt though that they would really want Hitler back or another war or holocaust for that matter, but I can see the desire for a "strong hand at the reins" ...German politcs over the last 15 years or so has been pretty dismal no matter who's been in charge.

Unfortunately the German education system and the whole fabric of social security have also suffered greatly during that period, creating a perfect breeding ground for the kind of numbskulls that would support such a move.

Amhran Nua

tororosso wrote: »

Germans who are unhappy with the level of immigration in their country are more likely to find a leader such as Hitler appealing...

I wonder what will happen next year when they are forced to open their borders to Eastern European accession states so...

metrovelvet wrote: »

I think in times of crisis we look for a strong father figure. Even if it is Darth Vadar.

Thats exactly the kind of thinking that brought us CJ Haughey and every other tinpot third world strongman. "Strength" does not imply altruism.

johngalway

Slightly OT, but in the vein of mid 20th century Dictators. Joe Stalin was, presumably still is, fairly popular in Russia. I remember a lot of write ups being done on it a few years ago. I'd say he killed more people than Hitler.

deise go deo

johngalway wrote: »

Slightly OT, but in the vein of mid 20th century Dictators. Joe Stalin was, presumably still is, fairly popular in Russia. I remember a lot of write ups being done on it a few years ago. I'd say he killed more people than Hitler.

I think he won the greatest Russian award, Hitler killed about 6 million Jews etc and a few million Russians + various other nationalities, Uncle Joe killed about 30 - 40 million between purges famine and war.

Nodin

deise go deo wrote: »

I think he won the greatest Russian award, Hitler killed about 6 million Jews etc and a few million Russians + various other nationalities, Uncle Joe killed about 30 - 40 million between purges famine and war.

10 Million in the Holocaust, also 30 million Russians, 14 million of them military (Roughly). As he started the WWII you've have to say it was a draw. In survivability stakes, Hitler had a fixed hitlist, whereas Joe was unpredictable, so the Fuhrer would have been easier to live with (providing your head had the right kind of bumps on it).....until the Russians arrived of course...then it was Round II...

HalloweenJack

Thread title is very misleading. A lot of assumptions are being made here based on German history. From reading that report on IT, there is nothing to say that Hitler himself is becoming popular again.

I'd love to have access to the original German survey and results and see how the questions were phrased in German, etc. Also, I'd love to be fluent in German to really understand it.

Going through those results, I'd rather look at them one by one.

13.2% - We should have a Führer who rules Germany with a strong hand in the national interest

This does not equate to saying they wanted Hitler. Because we are talking about Germany, people are subconsciously making that link. If the survey had been conducted in a different country (for argument's sake, Finland), nobody would be thinking they wanted Hitler to lead Finland.

Also, how was that particular question phrased? Was it "Would you like to see a strong leader?" or "Would you like to see a strong leader, like Hitler?". The phrasing of the questions is important; if it had been the latter, I think less people would have said "yes".

Also, a quick look at this, suggests Fuhrer is still used in Germany as a word, regardless of the historical, political connotations. Even then, Hitler was also Chancellor of Germany, a title which is still used by the leaders of Germany.

35.6% - Germany is dangerously swamped by too many foreigners

There's two things about that. One, "dangerously" is an ambiguous term; different people would have different definitions of what "dangerously" equates to. Some people might agree that Germany is "dangerously" swamped by foreigners, while others would agree it is swamped but not "dangerously" so and a third group might feel the country isn't swamped by foreigners at all. Two, I imagine similar percentages would be seen in most Western countries.

8.8% - In certain circumstances, a dictatorship is the best form of government

This is the one I'd be somewhat concerned about and, even then, the percentage is a lot lower than the "strong leader" question.

10.7% - If it hadn’t been for the extermination of the Jews, Hitler would be viewed as a great statesman

I don't see anything worrying about that. I imaging there was some support for his actual governance of the country. If you leave the whole racist thing aside, Hitler could be judged on a par with Bertie et al for what he did as a politician.

23.6% - Germany needs a single strong party that embodies the people as a whole

This one, I don't really get. If it's suggesting a single-party state, like Nazi Germany, then I'd be concerned. However, if it's suggesting that there should be one large populist party in a multi-party system then I have no objections.

EDIT - Imo, a straightforward question, such as "Would you want Hitler to lead Germany in 2010?" and "Would you want a Nazi party to be the only party involved in German parliament?", would be a lot better at judging how popular he really is. People are drawing a lot of conclusions from this survey based solely on the nation in question and it's history.

Jeboa Safari

Rockery Woman wrote: »

Popular again!

How can anyone think a Hitler-Fuhrer type would be the one to lead a country through recession.

Hitler did lead Germany out of recession, more or less. He lead them to where they were after the Great Depression 30% unemployment to one of the most, if not the most powerful countries in the world.

Nodin

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

Hitler did lead Germany out of recession, more or less. He lead them to where they were after the Great Depression 30% unemployment to one of the most, if not the most powerful countries in the world.

His economics guy did. As far as I recall, he sent him to a death camp. He kept the permanently bombed drug addict though.

dsmythy

I don't know why people immediately think Hitler when looking at these results just because it's Germany. Stereotyping wacists picking on the Germans tut tut

8.8% said "In certain circumstances, a dictatorship is the best form of government".

The most worrying of all the questions. But again do they fancy a Fascist dictatorship or a Communist one? Who knows.

Boskowski

For the sake of this debate - being German and all - I pulled up the actual publication from the Friedrich-Ebert Foundation and translated the NAZI questionnaire and it's results for you.

If you want to double check, here it is. From page 33 http://www.fes.de/rechtsextremismus/pdf/Vom_Rand_zur_Mitte.pdf

5036 people questioned in what we call a 'representative poll'. Look it up, it would go beyond the scope of work I'm willing to put in tonight.

The questionnaire doesn't actually ask questions but makes statements and then you have 5 different levels of disagreement or agreement. 18 questions in total, the numbers underneath are the percentages (obviously).

A - completely disagree
B - mostly disagree
C - 50:50
D - agree mostly
E - agree completely

*****

1) With regards to national interest a dictatorship is under certain circumstances the better form of governance.

A 48,4 B 23,1 C 19,5 D 7,3 E 1,7

2) Without the Holocaust Hitler would be viewed today as a great statesman.

A 49,8 B 22,4 C 16,2 D 8,6 E 3

3) What Germany needs now is a single strong party representing the people as a whole.

A 31,8 B 19,5 C 22,7 D 19,1 E 7

4) We should have a leader who rules Germany with a strong hand for the benefit of all people. (The word Fuehrer was used here but the Irish Times is completely off the mark. It means leader and that's that. For example the driving license (license to 'lead' a vehicle) is called Fuehrerschein.)

A 47 B 19,1 C 18,7 D 12,1 E3,3

5) Similar to nature and wildlife in society the strongest and fittest should prevail.

A 38,1 B 23,2 C 21 D 14,4 E 3,3

6) The immigrants only come to Germany to exploit social services.

A 14 B 17,2 C 31,9 D 21,7 E 15,2

7) To this day the Jewish influence is far too great.

A 35,1 B 23,5 C 23,6 D 13,3 E 4,6

8) We should finally find the courage to have some national bond/emotion/pride.

A 14,2 B 15,1 C 31,3 D 27,8 E 11,7

9) Really Germans are by nature superior to other people.

A 38,6 B 24,4 C 22,3 D 12,1 E 2,7

10) When jobs are getting scarce the immigrants should be send home.

A 17,7 B 18,2 C 29,3 D 19,9 E 15

11) The crimes of the NAZIs have been grossly exaggerated in historical records.

A 53,1 B 22,6 C 16 D 5,7 E 2,6

12) What our country needs today is pressing home German interests strongly and vigorously when dealing with other countries.

A 20,3 B 17,6 C 31,4 D 23,2 E 7,6

13) The Jews are using foul-play and deceit more than other people to achieve their goals.

A 40,9 B 24,7 C 20,7 D 10,5 E 3,3

14) The foremost goal of German politics should be to assert Germany's power and status as to what she rightfully deserves.

A 22,7 B 19,6 C 29,2 D 21,5 E 6,9

15) There are such things like 'worthy' and 'unworthy' life.

A 55,7 B 18 C 16,2 D 7 E 3,2

16) The Republic is dangerously 'ueberfremdet' by the many immigrants. ('Ueberfremdet is a tricky one. 'Ueber' is overly and 'der Fremde' is the stranger. Too many strange influences basically.)

A 16,5 B 15,9 C 28,5 D 23,4 E 15,7

17) The Jews have something strange and peculiar about them and they don't really fit in with us.

A 40,3 B 23,7 C 22,4 D 10,6 E 2,9

18) National Socialism had it's good aspects.

A 47,1 B 21,1 C 20,8 D 8,2 E 2,8

*****

Some of the percentages to some of the questions are scary, but I guess you'd get similar results in most other countries.

Hope this helps

Boskowski

Without judging one or the other I'd like to say I observed a big difference in Irish and German politics.

German politics are much more characterized by ideologies than Irish politics. People will cast their vote mostly based on political conviction and rarely based on personal affection towards a politician.
Doesn't matter if he's such a nice guy and whether you know his auntie, he's a bloody social democrat, you'd never go near him.

In return political parties are ideologized to a far greater extent than Irish parties IMHO. German history has always been about the struggle between left and right in the country and the difference to Ireland is very understandable since Irish history was dominated by the struggle with their big bully neighbour rather than by domestic differences.

Nowadays Irish politics seems to be all about the guy you know and to what extent you or your community profits from this or the other guy.
The mainstream parties have really nothing to offer at all on the ideology front. It's all about keeping the wheels turning and the machinery oiled and who's better suited to do that. There is no vision and no strategy, not even a misguided one. There just isn't any. And that seems to be ok with the Irish voter, he doesn't expect any of it either.
The Irish voter also seems in acceptance that he's just part of a 'big boys' system and that he will always get screwed over and end up paying and nothing's ever going to change that.

Of course German voters are also part of a 'big boys' system and they will always get screwed over and end up paying. But they'd like to think they're able to keep tabs on this - which of course is an illusion. And they also like to think they can make change happen when really nothing ever changes in Germany either.

The real difference is the level of disguise required by politicians IMHO. In Ireland you get away with a lot and you don't have to be very sophisticated about it. Being a clumsy red-faced gombeen receiver of brown envelopes - and people actually knowing about it - is fine as long as you don't screw up at local level. In Germany you have to put on more of a sophisticated show and when you get caught being clumsy you will have to go. Your one with the fake mobile phone bills he'd just empty his drawers and leave the office if he was in Berlin instead of Dublin. And there'd be no pay-out either.

So how does this make any sense in terms of the thread subject?

I think Germany would be more receiptive to strong ideological ideas than Ireland for instance. But I'd like to believe that we have learned from our past and that something like the 1930's just couldn't happen again. At least not in my lifetime and that of my children.
Looking at that poll and at some of the scary percentages I'd like to believe that in any country you'd get 10% - 15% of people being total idiots, I'm sure of that.

Rockery Woman

Boskowski wrote: »

Without judging one or the other I'd like to say I observed a big difference in Irish and German politics.

German politics are much more characterized by ideologies than Irish politics. People will cast their vote mostly based on political conviction and rarely based on personal affection towards a politician.
Doesn't matter if he's such a nice guy and whether you know his auntie, he's a bloody social democrat, you'd never go near him.

In return political parties are ideologized to a far greater extent than Irish parties IMHO. German history has always been about the struggle between left and right in the country and the difference to Ireland is very understandable since Irish history was dominated by the struggle with their big bully neighbour rather than by domestic differences.

Nowadays Irish politics seems to be all about the guy you know and to what extent you or your community profits from this or the other guy.
The mainstream parties have really nothing to offer at all on the ideology front. It's all about keeping the wheels turning and the machinery oiled and who's better suited to do that. There is no vision and no strategy, not even a misguided one. There just isn't any. And that seems to be ok with the Irish voter, he doesn't expect any of it either.
The Irish voter also seems in acceptance that he's just part of a 'big boys' system and that he will always get screwed over and end up paying and nothing's ever going to change that.


The real difference is the level of disguise required by politicians IMHO. In Ireland you get away with a lot and you don't have to be very sophisticated about it. Being a clumsy red-faced gombeen receiver of brown envelopes - and people actually knowing about it - is fine as long as you don't screw up at local level. In Germany you have to put on more of a sophisticated show and when you get caught being clumsy you will have to go. Your one with the fake mobile phone bills he'd just empty his drawers and leave the office if he was in Berlin instead of Dublin. And there'd be no pay-out either.

Boskowski - I totally agree with you. Irish politics is very parochial in comparison to larger European countries. I think its changing a bit now, albiet very slowly. Traditionally a family was staunch FF or FG, but thats beginning to change.

Irish politicians have always been chancers, we have come to expect nothing better than this behaviour from them. Did anyone even raise an eyebrow over the mobile phone bills you mentioned above. We are Irish, we just accept these things (even though its not right and we shouldn't).

Dignity in Irish politics.... we can only dream I suppose.

southsiderosie

Boskowski, thank you for posting the expanded poll data. I think we are paying too much attention to the "agree" end of the scale, and not enough to the "strongly disagree" part. Given the large numbers of respondents who replied disagree, but in particularly "strongly disagree" with some of the more odious questions in the poll, I think that even though Germany clearly has problems with rising right-wing sentient, it is far from being a widespread social phenomenon, and instead there are significant majorities who are strongly opposed to these kinds of sentiments and measures.

(Or maybe I am just being too optimistic)