The Chilean miners

krudler

Seen a thread on t'other forum about how wonderful it is the Chilean miners are thanking god for getting them out of there, dont get me wrong, its a great story and brilliant they made it out safely but really? thanking god for getting them out? not the scientists who built the contraption to get them out or the constant perseverance of the other humans who made it possible?

Why oh why oh why is god always thanked for getting people out of these situations but not blamed for putting them there in the first place? also if he was responsible, he sure took his sweet time about it, 69 days or whatever it was, not exactly good customer service from our supposed all powerful deity, I didnt realise these things had a turnaround time, I've gotten overcharged bills sorted out quicker than that.

robindch

krudler wrote: »

why is god always thanked for getting people out of these situations but not blamed for putting them there in the first place?

Because god is a "god of infinite love", therefore he couldn't have caused the cave-in(*).

(*) Unless it was part of his "plan" which is too advanced for our brains to cope with. Tricky god, that one.

krudler

robindch wrote: »

Because god is a "god of infinite love", therefore he couldn't have caused the cave-in(*).

(*) Unless it was part of his "plan" which is too advanced for our brains to cope with. I presume somebody has claimed this...

Ah, so disaster= not god, people saved=god, despite the fact its people who rescued them, with science.

He really does have a sweet deal doesnt he? considered omnipotent but not when disasters happen (unless its written where he actually did do these things, like in the old testament, that scamp) but takes all the credit when people are rescued. None of the blame,all of the credit, his pr agent is a friggin genius.

kippy

Lads seriously,
Is this forum for taking the piss outta those who believe in something that is very difficult to logicilly define?

The human mind is a very strange thing and something we know very very little about.
If a belief in a "GOD" helped these guys get through an exceptionally difficult experience, I really dont see what harm it does. They may not have gotten through it other wise.
Had they been logical and scientific about analysing their situation at the start they would probably have come to the conclusion that they would die in there cos the scientific odds were stacked against them. Who knows how they would have handled that mentally.


Whatever works works,
I am sure they personally thanked their rescuers and all that helped them get outta there.

I'd love to see some people manage to survive that long when only keeping logic and science on ones side.

cavedave

kippy
I'd love to see some people manage to survive that long when only keeping logic and science on ones side.

Have you read reading Primo Levi? In 'the drowned and the saved' he writes

This happened in October of 1944, in the one moment in which I lucidly perceived the imminence of death. Naked and compressed among my naked companions with my personal index card in hand, I was waiting to file past the ‘commission’ that with one glance would decide whether I should immediately go into the gas chamber or was instead strong enough to go on working. For one instant I felt the need to ask for help and asylum; then despite my anguish, equanimity prevailed: you do not change the rules of the game at the end of the match, nor when you are losing. A prayer under these conditions would have been not only absurd (what rights could I claim? and from whom?) but blasphemous, obscene, laden with the greatest impiety of which a non-believer is capable. I rejected the temptation: I knew that otherwise, were I to survive, I would have to be ashamed of it (The Drowned and the Saved, 1989 Abacus edition: p118).

It is quite possible to be an atheist in a fox hole. I cannot say I would be. But some people do manage it.

Tim Robbins

I don't have much of an issue with them thanking God. But it would really annoy me if they thank Jesus and started quoting bible versus.

When they thank God and don't say what it is - they are admitting they don't know what they are saying.

But when they go for Jesus and Bible versus they are subverting objective reality.

Rev Hellfire

kippy wrote: »

If a belief in a "GOD" helped these guys get through an exceptionally difficult experience, I really dont see what harm it does. They may not have gotten through it other wise.

The harm it does is that they would be wrong.
As for not getting through it without god, at least if they died down there they could have done so happy in the knowledge that the odds where stacked against them, without clinging to the false hope of the intervention of some non-existent entity.


Saw this on boing boing, sums it up.

kippy

cavedave wrote: »

Have you read reading Primo Levi? In 'the drowned and the saved' he writes



It is quite possible to be an atheist in a fox hole. I cannot say I would be. But some people do manage it.

Indeed,
not saying its not possible. Point is, am saying that whatever worked for these guys worked for them, whether the "god" is real or not.

But you never know until you are under those extremes of enviroment/odds what you and your subconsious will do to increase your odds of survival.....

kippy

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

The harm it does is that they would be wrong.
As for not getting through it without god, at least if they died down there they could have done so happy in the knowledge that the odds where stacked against them, without clinging to the false hope of the intervention of some non-existent entity.


Saw this on boing boing, sums it up.

What harm is there in being wrong but alive?

Shenshen

I don't mind them thanking god so much (deserved or undeserved, if they feel like thanking him, of course they should), but if I had been one of the engineers working tirelessly for days on end to get them out of the mine, I personally would at this point feel a little put out as none of them have yet thanked their actual rescuers in the media (from what I can see, do correct me if I'm wrong there).

kippy

Shenshen wrote: »

I don't mind them thanking god so much (deserved or undeserved, if they feel like thanking him, of course they should), but if I had been one of the engineers working tirelessly for days on end to get them out of the mine, I personally would at this point feel a little put out as none of them have yet thanked their actual rescuers in the media (from what I can see, do correct me if I'm wrong there).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/chile/8066061/Chile-mine-rescue-three-men-arrive-home.html
But one article where their rescuers and those who gave them support.
They thanked and will continue to thank all the people involved in the rescue in almost every media report I have read........

Rev Hellfire

kippy wrote: »

What harm is there in being wrong but alive?

They now think something happened which clearly didn't.

kippy

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

They now think something happened which clearly didn't.

Put yourself in the position they were in.......
Almost a mile under ground, trapped, 33 of them. No one EVER managed to get rescued from those circumstances before, hell they didnt even know if people knew they were alive or not.

Bring logic/science into it, the kill themselves to ease the pain that would come from an agonising death.

Believe in "something" - get them through.

I really dont see the problems people have with this, especialy "non believers".

Rev Hellfire

I take it back I was wrong

krudler

kippy wrote: »

Put yourself in the position they were in.......
Almost a mile under ground, trapped, 33 of them. No one EVER managed to get rescued from those circumstances before, hell they didnt even know if people knew they were alive or not.

Bring logic/science into it, the kill themselves to ease the pain that would come from an agonising death.

Believe in "something" - get them through.

I really dont see the problems people have with this, especialy "non believers".

Exactly, so why would god save specifically you if he never bothered his arse to save anyone else in the same predicament before? you just proved my point.

Mark Hamill

kippy wrote: »

Indeed,
not saying its not possible. Point is, am saying that whatever worked for these guys worked for them, whether the "god" is real or not.

What worked for these guys was the science that made the drill that bore a hole down to them and the winch that brought them out.

kippy wrote: »

But you never know until you are under those extremes of enviroment/odds what you and your subconsious will do to increase your odds of survival.....

If I'm in a situation like that and start thanking god when I come out of a cave after being stuck there for months, just put me back, because the empty shell of a man you have saved isn't me and isn't worth saving.

Dades

kippy wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/chile/8066061/Chile-mine-rescue-three-men-arrive-home.html
But one article where their rescuers and those who gave them support.
They thanked and will continue to thank all the people involved in the rescue in almost every media report I have read........

Yeah, I heard a bunch of them thanking God and all those who were actually* involved in the rescue.

In short those that pop out thanking only God would piss me off had I been busting my ass to get them out, otherwise - meh. It would be different if, say, only half of them had survived to be thanking God but as they all got out it's less blinkered than such situations.


* "actually" added by me

Mark Hamill

krudler wrote: »

None of the blame,all of the credit, his pr agent is a friggin genius.

Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major deity, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! God did not cause the Chilean minors caven-in, but he did save them. The defense rests.

Rev Hellfire

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major deity, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! God did not cause the Chilean minors caven-in, but he did save them. The defense rests.

Finally reason prevails.

Mark Hamill

kippy wrote: »

Lads seriously,
Is this forum for taking the piss outta those who believe in something that is very difficult to logicilly define?

Yes*. Because it isn't rational to believe in something you cannot define at all.

*If by take the piss, you mean point out the massive confimational bias and leaps of logic. Insulting someone is against the charter.

kippy wrote: »

The human mind is a very strange thing and something we know very very little about.
If a belief in a "GOD" helped these guys get through an exceptionally difficult experience, I really dont see what harm it does. They may not have gotten through it other wise.

The harm it does is that it is irrational and that it takes all the praise away from the people who did all teh damn work to save the minors.

kippy wrote: »

Had they been logical and scientific about analysing their situation at the start they would probably have come to the conclusion that they would die in there cos the scientific odds were stacked against them. Who knows how they would have handled that mentally.

Funny how the people up top where logic and scientific and came to the conclusion that they needed to dig down to them. Maybe, next time, they should just let them pray themselves out of the ground.

kippy wrote: »

Whatever works works,
I am sure they personally thanked their rescuers and all that helped them get outta there.

I'd love to see some people manage to survive that long when only keeping logic and science on ones side.

I would love in people didn't have to suffer like that anymore, but whatever floats your boat.

Mark Hamill

kippy wrote: »

What harm is there in being wrong but alive?

You tend to stay alive longer if you are right.

Mark Hamill

kippy wrote: »

Put yourself in the position they were in.......
Almost a mile under ground, trapped, 33 of them. No one EVER managed to get rescued from those circumstances before, hell they didnt even know if people knew they were alive or not.

Bring logic/science into it, the kill themselves to ease the pain that would come from an agonising death.

I'm beginning to think that the reason you don't understand us is because you have a warped sense of logic.

kippy wrote: »

Believe in "something" - get them through.

I really dont see the problems people have with this, especialy "non believers".

The cognitive dissonance. If god was the one that saved them, then he put them there as well.

steve9859

What is everyone's problem with this??

I am an atheist, but I have no doubt that if I was down there in that cavern for over 2 weeks facing a long drawn out death and there was a religious member in the group (whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish or from any other faith) I would turn to that religion as something to cling on to. Personally I believe that most people would. Like an earlier poster said, belief in something got them through.

So where on earth is the harm. I dont believe that the rescuers are so small minded and insecure that they need the miners to thank them every minute of the day. The33 were clearly grateful when they came out, and I have read many quotes where they thanked the rescuers.

Rev Hellfire

steve9859 wrote: »

What is everyone's problem with this??

The problem is very simple, every-time their faith is re-enforced it strengths the their belief than a non-existent individual will intervene. That alone lessens the likelihood they will seek alternatives which may help them survive or escape.

krudler

steve9859 wrote: »

What is everyone's problem with this??

I am an atheist, but I have no doubt that if I was down there in that cavern for over 2 weeks facing a long drawn out death and there was a religious member in the group (whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish or from any other faith) I would turn to that religion as something to cling on to. Personally I believe that most people would. Like an earlier poster said, belief in something got them through.

So where on earth is the harm. I dont believe that the rescuers are so small minded and insecure that they need the miners to thank them every minute of the day. The33 were clearly grateful when they came out, and I have read many quotes where they thanked the rescuers.

The problem I have with it is that people are so quick to thank god for rescuing them, which he clearly didnt, other people did, I have no doubt people can make a amazing things happen with enough will and effort, but god takes all the credit.

kippy

Very few are taking the time to understand what I am saying here.
Of course man and science/engineery actually got them out.
Of course to many god does not exist.
God cannot "take any credit". I would have thought most on here would know that much at least.......
These miners have consistently thanked their rescuers and the technology beihnd their rescue.


Point I am making, whether you agree with it or not, is that these miners HAD to have SOMETHING to believe in to keep them somewhat sane during the initial hours and days as they "hoped"/prayed whatever for someone to find them, and then during the interveneing 60 or so days, that somehow against all known scientific and logical odds, they would all get outta there alive.
If these men used thoughts of god/miracles and even prayers to keep sane, I dont know why anyone here would have a problem with that, bearing in mind the first paragraph.

No one here has been in that situation and no one here knows how they would react, believer or none believer, all I know is, if you were to base your live on logic and science and you find yourself in that situation, mentally, you'd be somewhat fcuked, well I would be anyway.

I think this is the wrong forum for me to be making these points on, I amnt here to say god exists or not, just pointing out that these particular people used god and the positive aspects of his being, to get them through this.

kippy

krudler wrote: »

Exactly, so why would god save specifically you if he never bothered his arse to save anyone else in the same predicament before? you just proved my point.

Logicilly, there is no God, so praying to god is pointless etc..........
These men werent thinking logicilly, they would be most likely be dead if they were.

Rev Hellfire

kippy wrote: »

These men werent thinking logicilly, they would be most likely be dead if they were.

Hardly.

It would be logical to assume that someone would attempt to verify if they had perished or not. Once it had been found they hadn't it would be logical to assume a rescue attempt would be made.

kippy

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Hardly.

It would be logical to assume that someone would attempt to verify if they had perished or not. Once it had been found they hadn't it would be logical to assume a rescue attempt would be made.

It wouldnt actually. Thats not very logical at all.
Logicilly they would have though, we're ****ed. No one has ever been rescued from this situation, then if they had manged to survive a few days for the first drill hole, they'd have said, logicilly, no one has ever used these "cradles" before and they could potentially hit so many issues. We're fcuked.

You and I can both but whatever spin we like onto the situation.
The miners were the ones in the situation. The survived, and whatever helped them survive was something none of us will hopefully never fully understand.

seamus

kippy wrote: »

These men werent thinking logicilly, they would be most likely be dead if they were.

O RLY?

What are you basing that on?

Logicilly they would have though, we're ****ed. No one has ever been rescued from this situation, then if they had manged to survive a few days for the first drill hole, they'd have said, logicilly, no one has ever used these "cradles" before and they could potentially hit so many issues. We're fcuked.

Logically, once they had a service shaft dug to provide them with food and communications, they could stay down there quite indefinitely. It's not like they were trapped in a small room looking at eachother for 70 days. These were men who were quite accustomed to operating in subterranean environments and had 2km of room to find their own space if needed.

At no stage while I was hearing this going on did I ever think the odds were short. At all.

kippy

seamus wrote: »

O RLY?

What are you basing that on?

Logic.

Rev Hellfire

kippy wrote: »

Logic.

This is the same logic that says non-existent things can help you ?

kippy

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

This is the same logic that says non-existent things can help you ?

Did I say anywhere that a non existent being can help anyone?
Did I?

Again, you need to reread my posts and realise that psychologicly these men got hope/mental help, whatever you wish to call it from believing in one of these non existent things.........
Whether you agree with this is irrelevent in the whole sheme of thing.
It worked for these guys - mentally they didnt break down, I dont think anyone is trying to say that a god set up the drill and did the engineering.

krudler

kippy wrote: »

Did I say anywhere that a non existent being can help anyone?
Did I?

Again, you need to reread my posts and realise that psychologicly these men got hope/mental help, whatever you wish to call it from believing in one of these non existent things.........
Whether you agree with this is irrelevent in the whole sheme of thing.
It worked for these guys - mentally they didnt break down, I dont think anyone is trying to say that a god set up the drill and did the engineering.

so he did nothing, so why thank him at all?

c_man

kippy wrote: »

If a belief in a "GOD" helped these guys get through an exceptionally difficult experience, I really dont see what harm it does. They may not have gotten through it other wise.

Maybe, who knows. I have no issue with religion being used as a crutch here to help them through.


Now what does piss me off...

David Quinn: Why there were no atheists in the mine

Religious belief allows people to hope against hope when the odds are stacked against them

I was in Rome last week attending a conference on the Catholic media with 200 other journalists from 85 countries. Most were from Spanish-speaking countries, including a delegation from Chile.

During one of the sessions, a member of the Chilean delegation unfurled the Chilean flag and on it was written the signatures of the 33 miners who have been pulled out of their underground prison over the past couple of days.

On Thursday, the last day of the conference, the flag was presented to the Pope in person. This was only one small example of the role, the overwhelmingly positive role that religion and faith has played in this drama.

Every inch of the way, the miners and their families have been fortified by their own prayers and the prayers of millions upon millions of other people.

The rescue operation was called Operation San Lorenzo, after St Laurence, the patron saint of miners. In August, when they found the men, a statue of San Lorenzo, complete with miner's hat, was brought to the site and an impromptu shrine set up that people prayed at day and night.

The Chilean president had a statue of the saint brought to the presidential palace.

Underground, the miners set up their own shrine and were each provided with a set of rosary beads blessed by the Pope. They knew he was among the millions of other Christians praying for them.

As the men emerged from their ordeal one by one, many of them blessed themselves or fell on their knees or looked heavenward.

The second man rescued, Mario Sepulveda, the one who hugged everyone he could find, told the cameras a little later how he had met both God and the devil while he was trapped down below, but that God had won and his faith had helped to sustain him.

Another miner said he had been "praying to God all the time".

Jonathan Vega, the brother of Alex Vega, yet another of the miners, said, "God has given me a lesson about life."

When people face adversity like this it is religion they frequently turn to and this has been shown time and again.

When Flight 1549 crash-landed in the Hudson River in January 2009, many of the passengers told journalists about how they had prayed their way through the ordeal.

Similarly, many of those who lived (or died) through the events of September 11 turned to their faith for strength.

When the Asian tsunami killed a quarter of a million people in 2004 most of the families of the victims, to judge from reports, didn't turn away from God, they turned towards Him.

In 1972, a plane crash-landed in the Andes and the survivors famously sustained themselves physically by cannibalising the dead passengers. But their faith played a huge part in sustaining them psychologically, as documented in the book and the movie, 'Alive'.

(By the way, why is it that in real-life disasters people almost always pray, but almost never in disaster movies, 'Alive' being an exception, seeing as it is based on real life?)

The media reporting on the rescue of the miners spent a lot of their time talking to psychologists and other counsellors about the likely psychological effects of the ordeal upon the men.

They would have been better off speaking to chaplains about the role religion plays in helping people to cope with adversity. And it does help. We know this now from research.

For example, people who practise a religion live longer on average than those who don't. One reason for this is that they tend to be healthier because they're less likely to abuse drugs or alcohol, for instance.

Religious believers are also less likely to commit suicide, or succumb to depression. They recover faster from serious illness. They get over a bereavement faster.

One reason believers can cope better with adversity is because they have a source outside themselves to which they can turn and that helps them to accept whatever is in store for them.

It allows them to hope against hope when the odds are stacked against them, and when all is lost, it allows them to accept that fact, not to rage against it, and to seek forgiveness for any wrong they may have done and therefore go to God in peace.

Of course, this doesn't prove that there is a God. Nor is it saying that people who don't practise religion can't cope with adversity, because many can, sometimes better than people who do have faith.

But research shows that, on average, it is better in these situations to have a religious faith and it is completely natural to think of God and to pray in such circumstances because religion is a natural and ineradicable part of human nature.

The story of the Chilean miners proves this yet again. Faith is what helped many of these men to cope with their ordeal. The old adage says, 'no atheists in foxholes'.

Now we know there are no atheists in collapsed mines either.

dquinn@independent.ie

Irish Independent

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/david-quinn-why-there-were-no-atheists-in-the-mine-2380534.html

kippy

seamus wrote: »

O RLY?

What are you basing that on?

Logically, once they had a service shaft dug to provide them with food and communications, they could stay down there quite indefinitely. It's not like they were trapped in a small room looking at eachother for 70 days. These were men who were quite accustomed to operating in subterranean environments and had 2km of room to find their own space if needed.

At no stage while I was hearing this going on did I ever think the odds were short. At all.

So you were fully sure they would be rescued? Even in the initial days before they were found (which in itself was a mammoth task, never done before despite changes in previous collapses and efforts.)You didnt think there was a chance of a secondary collapse or gas explosion, never mind the myriad of issues that could have hit the drills as they drilled down to them or the mental issues affection people spending nearly 3 months in relative darkness, living on the basics, in torrid heat, with almost nothing to do but think of said negatives? Despite being used to operating in Subterranean environments, I would suspect that none of them expected nor were trained to be blocked in there for three months relying on a lot of luck/engineering to get out.
All this as well as the fact it had never succeeded before.......
Why all the media attention if it was a run of the mill rescue?

Your optimism was to be applauded.

kippy

krudler wrote: »

so he did nothing, so why thank him at all?

Why not? They believed and hoped based on their teaching of said god. If they thought mentally this god helped them why not than him?


Who really cares..... I still dont get the issues here.



Can we not just get along?

Mark Hamill

kippy wrote: »

So you were fully sure they would be rescued? Even in the initial days before they were found (which in itself was a mammoth task, never done before despite changes in previous collapses and efforts.)You didnt think there was a chance of a secondary collapse or gas explosion, never mind the myriad of issues that could have hit the drills as they drilled down to them or the mental issues affection people spending nearly 3 months in relative darkness, living on the basics, in torrid heat, with almost nothing to do but think of said negatives? Despite being used to operating in Subterranean environments, I would suspect that none of them expected nor were trained to be blocked in there for three months relying on a lot of luck/engineering to get out.
All this as well as the fact it had never succeeded before.......
Why all the media attention if it was a run of the mill rescue?

Your optimism was to be applauded.

Er, didn't they get to watch a football match a month or so ago?

kippy

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Er, didn't they get to watch a football match a month or so ago?

Perhaps they did. You're missing the bigger picture.

Anyway, signing off on this topic. Its a pointless exercise on my behalf.

sensibleken

No sillies.

They were just thanking the company who ran the drilling

http://www.godbedrilling.com/

Mark Hamill

kippy wrote: »

Why not? They believed and hoped based on their teaching of said god. If they thought mentally this god helped them why not than him?


Who really cares..... I still dont get the issues here.

You did see me write about the cognitive dissonance before, right? Do you not think that that is an issue? If god got them out, then he put them there.

kippy wrote: »

Can we not just get along?

Who isn't getting along?

Mark Hamill

kippy wrote: »

Perhaps they did. You're missing the bigger picture.

Ha!

Anyway, signing off on this topic. Its a pointless exercise on my behalf.

Completely pointless if you just ignore the points made to you.

Bye-bye.

Rev Hellfire

kippy wrote: »

Anyway, signing off on this topic. Its a pointless exercise on my behalf.

Clearly if you had faith you could have held on

krudler

Religious believers are also less likely to commit suicide, or succumb to depression. They recover faster from serious illness. They get over a bereavement faster.

hmmm...unless they take as many infidels as they can with them apparently.

faceman

c_man wrote: »

Maybe, who knows. I have issue with religion being used as a crutch here to help them through.

Why does it cause you personally an issue?

c_man

faceman wrote: »

Why does it cause you personally an issue?

There's a 'no' missing

Dades

I'm quite sure having belief and faith and whatnot helped the miners deal with the ordeal, but the fact is none of them would have died without it. They would all have been rescued regardless of 'God', the pope, rosary beads etc.

But I also don't get why people are too bothered about very relieved Chilean miners.

What is funny are the "Christian" miners whose mistresses showed up after the collapse.

Galvasean

David Quinn wrote:

For example, people who practise a religion live longer on average than those who don't. One reason for this is that they tend to be healthier because they're less likely to abuse drugs or alcohol, for instance.

Tell that to the Rastafarians...

As for his assertion of "No atheists in foxholes", he should tell that to these guys.
http://www.atheists.org/military

faceman

c_man wrote: »

There's a 'no' missing

Ah come on, are you just practicing your disdain for anyone who doesn't share the same views as you or can you really explain why it personally is an issue for you?

Galvasean

faceman wrote: »

Ah come on, are you just practicing your disdain for anyone who doesn't share the sane views as you or can you really explain why it personally is an issue for you?

Freudian slip?

Sorry, I'm just trying to score cheap kudos points

c_man

faceman wrote: »

Ah come on, are you just practicing your disdain for anyone who doesn't share the sane views as you or can you really explain why it personally is an issue for you?

It isn't. I would have thought it obvious that the sentence structure didn't make sense without it.

If I believed what you'd quoted, then I'd stand behind it. Why wouldn't I.



Hmm, rereading your post (sane/same) I hope I've read it wrong and you're just having a laugh!