Question for BJJ practitioners

SanoVitae

Hi everyone,

I'd be interested in hearing your opinions on this:

A few years ago, I took a couple of BJJ classes at one of the top MMA clubs in Dublin. I also took a couple of private lessons with the head instructor, with the hope of at least knowing how to do something when it came to rolling with others during the classes. These private lessons were done with another BJJ novice, with the instructor demonstrating techniques and observing our progress.

The reason I didn't continue was due to the fact I essentially wasn't been taught the various techniques at a speed that suited me, with everything moving much too quickly for me.

When I asked if there was any chance we could drill one movement over and over again, I was told that would be useless because whatever I perfected against a non-resisting "opponent" would be totally ineffective against a resisting opponent, doing everything to escape a submission.

The instructor suggested that I learn as I go along via rolling. I did this and over the course of the few BJJ lessons I did, I felt I learn close to nothing. This probably wasn't helped by the fact that the other guy doing the private lessons was a garda who outweighed me by at least 30 pounds and was much stronger than me!

Anyway, I'm looking to start BJJ again and this time, I'm planning to do it for a very, very long time.

My question is this: is there any point whatsoever of breaking down a particular BJJ technique and doing repetitive drills against a non-resisting opponent before then rolling against a resisting one, who will do everything to avoid getting trappped in submissions in the first place?

I'd appreciate any feedback

Cheers,

Paul

Tim_Murphy

SanoVitae wrote: »

My question is this: is there any point whatsoever of breaking down a particular BJJ technique and doing repetitive drills against a non-resisting opponent before then rolling against a resisting one, who will do everything to avoid getting trappped in submissions in the first place?

I'd appreciate any feedback

Cheers,

Paul

Of course there is. It is hard to get better at doing any particular move if resistance goes from zero to one hundred straight away.
Step 1: Practise with no resistance
Step 2: Get your partner to introduce some resistance and get him to ramp this up or down depending on how you are getting on.
Step 3: Bust the move out on some dude who's trying to stop you.

If you are new to the game don't be worrying about submissions too much anyway for a start.

SanoVitae

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Step 1: Practise with no resistance
Step 2: Get your partner to introduce some resistance and get him to ramp this up or down depending on how you are getting on.
Step 3: Bust the move out on some dude who's trying to stop you.

Thanks for your response Tim - that would be my understanding of how to master the skills

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

If you are new to the game don't be worrying about submissions too much anyway for a start.

What then should I be concentrating on? Avoiding being subbed myself to begin with? Working on my guard etc?

I understand that progression in BJJ is a slow process of mastering the basics over many years so it's not like I'm expecting to be a submission master after a few weeks. It'd be nice to know how to gauge my progress in various different ways.

Cheers for your help - really appreciate it.

Paul

Tim_Murphy

SanoVitae wrote: »

What then should I be concentrating on? Avoiding being subbed myself to begin with? Working on my guard etc?

There are more experienced BJJers on this forum than me and maybe they'll weigh in with some comments but my advice for anybody is to concentrate on the fundamentals. So if you take say side control, you need to get good at retaining the position, don't allowing your opponent to get back to guard etc. You need to get comfortable in the position and be able to maintain it. There is no point learning 5 submissions from there if you can't even maintain the position.

Barry.Oglesby

If there's one thing that's really improved me in the last 12 months it's drilling smarter. I hate to drill. I hate it. In my perfect world, I come in, warm up, roll for 2 hours and go home and the new technique enters my brain in my sleep. I'm on that end of the spectrum.

But you have to drill, and the more you do, the better you'll be. You need all levels of resistance of course, and I would suggest that at a beginner level, the vast majority of any drilling you do should be quite slow. That being said, I think the best benefit for a beginner is to roll as much as possible to get a feel for the sport. Knowing a shed load of technique before you roll for the first time doesn't really benefit you in my opinion. To draw an analogy, would there be any point in teaching a guy how to solo a ball if he didn't know which end to run to?

I used to use the progressive resistance model to coach but not anymore. It was useful to an extent but the thing I've learned the most in the last decade is that everyone is different, not that different, but different. The spectrum of physical learning is just too broad to expect people to develop at the same pace. I suppose I'm lucky enough to have a small enough class so I get around to pretty much everyone every night.

@SanoVitae. I think you also have to remember that the coach had most likely seen guys like you before and was giving you what he felt you needed. After all, you presumably paid him to coach you so it's in his interest to make you better the best way he can.

Doug Cartel

SanoVitae wrote: »

I understand that progression in BJJ is a slow process of mastering the basics over many years so it's not like I'm expecting to be a submission master after a few weeks. It'd be nice to know how to gauge my progress in various different ways.

Honestly, if you're a complete beginner, your best way of measuring progress would probably be the number of hours you log under a good coach.

As to what you should be practising, I think Saulo Ribeiro says you've first got to learn how to survive in bad positions, then you've got to learn how to escape to better positions, then putting people in bad positions, then finally subs.

SanoVitae

Thanks for all the replies - much appreciated.

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

@SanoVitae. I think you also have to remember that the coach had most likely seen guys like you before and was giving you what he felt you needed. After all, you presumably paid him to coach you so it's in his interest to make you better the best way he can.

Oh, I totally agree. He is a very successful BJJ coach and has produced many very good BJJ students. Very nice guy too.

Maybe I'm just a special case!

SanoVitae

Doug Cartel wrote: »

As to what you should be practising, I think Saulo Ribeiro says you've first got to learn how to survive in bad positions, then you've got to learn how to escape to better positions, then putting people in bad positions, then finally subs.

Fantastic way of thinking about it - thanks for that.

Pontificatus

SanoVitae wrote: »

What then should I be concentrating on? Avoiding being subbed myself to begin with? Working on my guard etc?

From top, learn one guard break and one guard pass. You'll get swept a tonnes of times while learning those two things and from that you'll learn about base and posture. When you get to side control sucessfully, then you can learn one sub.

From bottom, learn one way to get from under side control back to half guard and one way from half guard back to full guard. You'll get subbed a tonnes of times but will learn where to put your neck and arms. When you get back to guard sucessfully, then you can learn one sweep.

SanoVitae wrote: »

It'd be nice to know how to gauge my progress in various different ways.

BJJ is tough on the body and mind. Sometimes you'll be thinking why the fck you do it to yourself and sometimes you'll think your're good enough to take on Marcello. Dont get carried away in either case and you'll be fine.

MaeveD

SaniVitae, I'm glad you're giving it a second try... most people dont. I think Tims 3 step advice is spot on

If you're based in Dublin, you're more than welcome to come and have a look at our classes to see if its what you're looking for. (www.defendu.ie)

HellsAngel

SanoVitae wrote: »

Hi everyone,

I'd be interested in hearing your opinions on this:

A few years ago, I took a couple of BJJ classes at one of the top MMA clubs in Dublin. I also took a couple of private lessons with the head instructor, with the hope of at least knowing how to do something when it came to rolling with others during the classes. These private lessons were done with another BJJ novice, with the instructor demonstrating techniques and observing our progress.

The reason I didn't continue was due to the fact I essentially wasn't been taught the various techniques at a speed that suited me, with everything moving much too quickly for me.

When I asked if there was any chance we could drill one movement over and over again, I was told that would be useless because whatever I perfected against a non-resisting "opponent" would be totally ineffective against a resisting opponent, doing everything to escape a submission.

The instructor suggested that I learn as I go along via rolling. I did this and over the course of the few BJJ lessons I did, I felt I learn close to nothing. This probably wasn't helped by the fact that the other guy doing the private lessons was a garda who outweighed me by at least 30 pounds and was much stronger than me!

Anyway, I'm looking to start BJJ again and this time, I'm planning to do it for a very, very long time.

My question is this: is there any point whatsoever of breaking down a particular BJJ technique and doing repetitive drills against a non-resisting opponent before then rolling against a resisting one, who will do everything to avoid getting trappped in submissions in the first place?

I'd appreciate any feedback

Cheers,

Paul

I actually think that the best way a total beginner can learn is to train with a guy who has only 2 or 3 months experience. The problem with more experienced BJJers is that they forget how foreign it was for them in the beginning. Especailly as they have developed the muscle memory and fitness neccessary for BJJ and take things for granted, they can then concentrate on technique etc It's not arrogance but just experieience. A highly and very well qualified instructor cannot break it down for a newbie as good as another newbie. My experience anyway.

EnjoyChoke

HellsAngel wrote: »

I actually think that the best way a total beginner can learn is to train with a guy who has only 2 or 3 months experience. The problem with more experienced BJJers is that they forget how foreign it was for them in the beginning. Especailly as they have developed the muscle memory and fitness neccessary for BJJ and take things for granted, they can then concentrate on technique etc It's not arrogance but just experieience. A highly and very well qualified instructor cannot break it down for a newbie as good as another newbie. My experience anyway.

Are you serious? The best way to learn BJJ is from someone who doesn't know the fundamentals or has no depth of knowledge of the sport?
Really?
OK then.

David Jones

A highly and very well qualified instructor cannot break it down for a newbie as good as another newbie. My experience anyway.

That is the best comment I have read in a long time, just made my Friday.

SDTimeout

What's helped me most i'll echo the comments is rolling. Things start to click naturally within your head when rolling. A lot of it may be considered common sense but if i know i'm going to be caught in a guillotine i need to follow and twist. Makes sense in my head and that's what i do. Same way if i give up my back or if i can't see my opponent my arms raise and cross my neck almost in a second nature.

My main frustration is not being able to roll more than twice a week. It's the main reason i'm looking forward to college next year to join a gym that wasn't set up over a feud that ignores ground stuff and thinks Thai is the be all end all.