Private sector importing workers

galway2007

To think that we have 450k on the dole and that employers are importing thousands of workers for ordinary jobs from outside the EU.
I think this is down to one or more of the following reason
1) Private sector employers are not going to give up there greed for profits so they bring in cheaper workers.
2) The private sector on the dole think they are above doing those jobs
3) The people on the dole are getting too much
4) More pay cuts are required in the private sector to match the cheap workers. Being imported

In one month alone 1200 workers were imported, so its time the private sector got off there ass and start taking those jobs.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/thousands-of-workers-imported-despite-job-crisis-2374800.html

Nijmegen

For those outside the EU, the minimum wage for a work permit holder is €35,000.

Cookie_Monster

there are valid reason for this, maybe they need staff that speak specific languages, maybe american companies want american staff etc.

Still seems a little excessive though

ei.sdraob

If you are a high tech company there might not be the right talent here in Ireland, these are not unskilled jobs but ones that pay very well, good jobs that pay taxes here and keep money here.

If companies are prevented hiring people they need when there are no locals to do it, they would just move to other locations in process taking jobs with them.

gurramok

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

there are valid reason for this, maybe they need staff that speak specific languages, maybe american companies want american staff etc.

Still seems a little excessive though

That doesnt explain it either, most are Indians, Philipino and Chinese whose best non-native language is English.

The geographical background of those getting permits was highly concentrated, with Indians awarded 1,780 permits, followed by citizens of the Philippines with 1,101 permits and China with 288 permits.

If the minimum wage for a permit is 35k, how does it explain this?

The rules from the Department of Enterprise are very blunt: permits can only be granted when an employer has "made every effort to recruit an Irish or European Economic Area national for the post".

Recruitment specialists said yesterday that specific language skills were needed for some of the roles, and these were not available in Ireland or the EU.

But they could not explain the large number of overseas workers needed in areas like catering, education, agriculture/fisheries and various service industries.

Something fishy is going on, there should be an investigation.

P. Breathnach

It's a few thousand people people a year. Visit a hospital, and you will see where a good percentage of them go. Then consider firms that have language or culture needs for such things as localisation or providing support. Add in a few more people who have special skills that are unavailable in the local market.

Yes, there may be some abuse, but it does not look like a big problem.

The 1,200 in one month was obviously a blip, and gives a distorted impression. The total in 2009 was under 6,000, and in the first nine months of 2010 was just over 6,000.

donkey balls

Workers from outside Ireland and the EU are being hired for jobs on farms, in hotels, restaurants, bars, nursing homes, takeaways, insurance companies, pharmacies and leisure centres.

Right so which of the above skills do Irish people not have? as for particular langauges do we have call centers here that deal with people in the Indian subcontinent.
Here is a list of occupations that are not excepted for work permits.
http://www.deti.ie/labour/workpermits/elements/ineligible.htm

ei.sdraob

donkey balls wrote: »

Workers from outside Ireland and the EU are being hired for jobs on farms, in hotels, restaurants, bars, nursing homes, takeaways, insurance companies, pharmacies and leisure centres.

says who?

donkey balls wrote: »

Right so which of the above skills do Irish people not have?

That started during the bubble years. The "natives" just dont want to work on a farm when they can get close to min wage and rent paid by doing nothing.

donkey balls

ei.sdraob wrote: »

says who?


That started during the bubble years. The "natives" just dont want to work on a farm when they can get close to min wage and rent paid by doing nothing.

sorry should have posted the linky it is actually in the sindo article:o that the op posted beside the farming work did you you look at the link i posted regarding jobs that do not qualify for work permits.

ei.sdraob

donkey balls wrote: »

sorry should have posted the linky it is actually in the sindo article:o that the op posted beside the farming work did you you look at the link i posted regarding jobs that do not qualify for work permits.

If people are working illegally then its a matter for the Gardai. What laws are being broken?

donkey balls

ei.sdraob wrote: »

If people are working illegally then its a matter for the Gardai. What laws are being broken?

who said about people working illegally:eek: the topic is about non EU nationals getting work here with NO specific skills that we have a shortage of here.

P. Breathnach

donkey balls wrote: »

Workers from outside Ireland and the EU are being hired for jobs on farms, in hotels, restaurants, bars, nursing homes, takeaways, insurance companies, pharmacies and leisure centres.
...

Citing the Indo as a source does not impress me, because I do not see where they got their content. The whole piece is a bit of cheap sensationalist journalism: there might be a small story there, but they are ramping it up as if it were a big one.

Foregrounding (twice) the figures for one unrepresentative month suggests to me that they are more interested in fuelling pub talk than they are in measured consideration of what might be a public issue.

namenotavailablE

From the linked article (which references a report by The Department of Enterprise):

"Workers from outside Ireland and the EU are being hired for jobs on farms, in hotels, restaurants, bars, nursing homes, takeaways, insurance companies, pharmacies and leisure centres."

"The surge in numbers comes despite rules that insist companies can only hire overseas if they can't get the staff at home or in the EU."

I think the whole point of the article is that there must be some jobs (maybe not all jobs) for which there is a ready supply of suitably qualified Irish/EU people available yet- for reasons not entirely clear- many of these jobs are being filled by non-Irish/ non-EU people. As noted above, the visa rules require that employers attempt to fill the role using Irish/EU staff in priority to nationals from other countries.

Given the level of unemployment, it is very difficult to believe that staff for many of the jobs in the industries listed in the article cannot reasonably be filled by Irish/EU people- sure, there will always be a percentage of 'welfare-for-life' brigade for whom 'work' is another of those rude 4-lettered words ending in 'k' and there is some evidence that certain welfare rules can result in individuals effectively being unable to take up part-time employment as it will result in the loss of certain welfare benefits. However, there must be tens of thousands of others who would willingly work in these sectors in order to get out of welfare dependency/ regain their self esteem/ feel that they are contributing to society etc etc.

The question is what is the justification for employers to import such numbers of non-Irish/non-EU staff in these circumstances?

donkey balls

If it is the case that employers are hiring non EU citizens then how are they getting around the rules which are stated on the depts website.



http://www.deti.ie/labour/workpermits/elements/ineligible.htm

P. Breathnach

donkey balls wrote: »

If it is the case that employers are hiring non EU citizens ...

I think you should pause there and ask if it indeed is the case.

esharknz

Not all non-EU nationals require work permits in order to work legally in Ireland. I'm married to an Irishman, and can basically do as I please in terms of employment. This also may apply to some students and spouses of EU nationals, who may have the right to enter employment, subject to conditions. Others may have lived here long enough to get long term residency, and again don't require the permission of DETE to work.

I believe for a time there was a policy allowing the spouses of work permit holders to be exempt from the labour market test, and obtain permits for any sort of employment. I think this has been discontinued.

I did read the article in question, and didn't really find a point to it, after having some knowledge of the immigration system here. I half wondered was it trying to highlight the renewal of work permits for lower skilled occupations that probably would have been issued 5+ years ago?

donkey balls

i know of a company that had many non EU nationals working for them but since the downturn and with changes in the work permit requirments their permits were not renewed.

mike 58

if you are unemployed like i am it is a big issue especially when i apply for a job in places that have got tax relief and grants [hotels @meat plants etc] it is a scandal that should be investigated

Nijmegen

6,600 in a workforce of a few million is a tiny percentage.

Is it not more likely that the majority are real specialists?

If we had 60,000 or 600,000 it'd be a story.

baalthor

esharknz wrote: »

Not all non-EU nationals require work permits in order to work legally in Ireland. I'm married to an Irishman, and can basically do as I please in terms of employment. This also may apply to some students and spouses of EU nationals, who may have the right to enter employment, subject to conditions. Others may have lived here long enough to get long term residency, and again don't require the permission of DETE to work.

I believe for a time there was a policy allowing the spouses of work permit holders to be exempt from the labour market test, and obtain permits for any sort of employment. I think this has been discontinued.

I did read the article in question, and didn't really find a point to it, after having some knowledge of the immigration system here. I half wondered was it trying to highlight the renewal of work permits for lower skilled occupations that probably would have been issued 5+ years ago?

On Matt Cooper's show on Today FM, a guy from the Migrant rights centre said that the vast majority of these permits were renewals by people who were already working here for several years. Only a few hundred new permits were issued.

galway2007

It dose not matter why they are here, but the fact that dose matters is the cost on the Irish state
If those jobs had being take up by people on the dole in Ireland it would have saved 145 million euro as we are told each person on the dole cost 22k

galway2007

baalthor wrote: »

On Matt Cooper's show on Today FM, a guy from the Migrant rights centre said that the vast majority of these permits were renewals by people who were already working here for several years. Only a few hundred new permits were issued.

should there be renewals if there is allready an EU person in the state that can do the job???

NullZer0

galway2007 wrote: »

ordinary jobs

What is an ordinary job?

NullZer0

ei.sdraob wrote: »

If you are a high tech company there might not be the right talent here in Ireland.

If you are a high tech company there is no talent here in Ireland

thirtythirty

As a matter of interest, is there a breakdown of what sectors / industries people on the dole came from? Or is that information not captured when people sign on??

gbee

donkey balls wrote: »

Here is a list of occupations that are not excepted for work permits. http://www.deti.ie/labour/workpermits/elements/ineligible.htm

Have I read this wrong, It seems to me that almost everyone is allowed in without a permit?

Nijmegen

galway2007 wrote: »

It dose not matter why they are here, but the fact that dose matters is the cost on the Irish state
If those jobs had being take up by people on the dole in Ireland it would have saved 145 million euro as we are told each person on the dole cost 22k

Or the companies that required specialist skills wouldn't get them, they wouldn't be able to grow their business and create new jobs, or hold on to existing ones.

As a matter of interest, is there a breakdown of what sectors / industries people on the dole came from? Or is that information not captured when people sign on??

It is, along with a detailed explanation of what that person does, how you searched for the role to be filled within Ireland (with proof) and what steps you plan to take to upskill an Irish worker to fill the role.

xavidub

I don't think this is much of a story. The numbers involved likely mean that companies needed specialists who weren't available to them in the right location, quantity etc

marco_polo

galway2007 wrote: »

should there be renewals if there is allready an EU person in the state that can do the job???

Would you actually be in favour of a system whereby any non EU national could be let go simply because their is now an EU national available to do the job instead?

Equally it would be most unfair on an employer to have to write off the training and investment that they have put into the employee as well as the experience that has been built up, and start again from scratch.

gbee wrote: »

Have I read this wrong, It seems to me that almost everyone is allowed in without a permit?

You have certainly took it up wrong, as it is a list of Job Categories that companies can never apply for a work permit for somebody, because they are either unskilled or semi skilled position where a suitable Irish/EU candidate can up trained up for the with relative ease. Or some skilled trades with an readily available existing supply of labour.

esharknz

gbee wrote: »

Have I read this wrong, It seems to me that almost everyone is allowed in without a permit?

What this means is that a person won't even be considered for a work permit (flat refusal from the start) if they have an offer of employment for an occupation in this exclusion list. It doesn't exempt a non-EU national from requiring a work permit if they have an offer of employment in a sector not mentioned. They still need an approved work permit/green card (approved being the key word) to work legally. There are, of course, non-Eu nationals who can work in this country without a permit for a variety of reasons, some being marriage to an Irish/EU national, long term residency, being granted refugee status.

To be quite honest, most non-EU nationals I know who have applied, have been turned down for a work permit. There are plenty of rules in the process that make it difficult enough to get a new permit.

donkey balls

i know about three non eu nationals working here two are married to Irish people, the other is on a stamp 4 visa/permit who is in the process of applying for residence here.
I my self nearly went through he process in another country a couple of years ago, and i can tell you one thing the Irish process afaik has nothing on it They screened you for everything including a medical.
Now if it is the case that an Irish company/FDI cannot find someone suitable within the EU to fill a particular role i have no poblems with someone from a non EU country working here,but if it is for a low skilled job were there is plenty of skilled Irish people to work i do have a problem. If companies can seemingly get around the link i posted regarding occupations that are excluded from the visa/permit system we should be worried.

P. Breathnach

donkey balls wrote: »

... If companies can seemingly get around the link i posted regarding occupations that are excluded from the visa/permit system we should be worried.

There are lots of things that we should worry about if they happened or there was a real danger might happen.

So far all we have is a sensationalist piece of journalism, and nothing to back up the suggestion that the rules on work permits are being circumvented. Further, given the total number of permits issued, the potential number that might be wrongly issued seems to me to be vanishingly small.

So for the present I will worry about other things.

meglome

ei.sdraob wrote: »

says who?

That started during the bubble years. The "natives" just dont want to work on a farm when they can get close to min wage and rent paid by doing nothing.

Yup if you can get 200 a week on the dole plus rent allowance why bother doing a crappy job.

marco_polo

Lets throw some more facts into the mix, the breakdown of work permits by Type (Renewal/New),Nationality, Sector, even by Company for the past few years are freely available from DETI here.

http://www.deti.ie/labour/workpermits/statistics.htm

For 2010 so far about 3000 are new applications and 3500 are renewals, almost 1000 WPs were refused or withdrawn.

As can be seen the vast bulk of permits are granted are in the Service (IT, Finance etc) ,Industrial and Medical sectors.

The only other signifigant sector is catering, I would seem safe enough that the numbers can be put down to chefing positions as all other positions are prohibited from being eligible for work permits (A definate seasonal spike can be seen in the summer months), unless this is not being propery enforced and I see little evidence of this possibility.

ressem

There are companies in the EU which take this to extremes.
The situation in Prato, Italy is a case in point.

There is a huge textile industry, largely composed of Chinese companies, and there's uncertainty as to how many people are actually there. In a town of 180,000 estimates go from 12,000 legal chinese immigrants to 40,000 legal and illegal.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6926181.stm
http://www.cleveland.com/world/index.ssf/2010/09/influx_of_chinese_workers_crea.html

They found whole factories of people who just ate and slept in the factories, earning 90c per dress, and little sign that the companies were paying tax appropriate to their income.

http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Business/?id=3.1.778427239

It does make one wonder what the plan and end result of the "Athlone Shanghai" announced a few months ago might be. Is it displacing Chinese people to the EU just to avoid EU tariffs?
---
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0622/1224273030638.html

Ms O’Rourke said the group met Minister of State Conor Lenihan in Dublin. The promoters told her the first 2,500 jobs would be Asian nationals.