Cutting the VEC's-Great Example of Croke Park in Action

Nijmegen

So we're cutting our 33 VEC's in half, to 16, actually making a cut deeper than what An Bord Snip suggested.

I think this is a good idea on paper, we're a small country and don't need uniform VEC's for the whole country, rather VEC's that fit a population spread rather than a line on a map.

However, thanks to the Croke Park Agreement none of the staff will be let go.

Some of these staff will need to be rolled into the new bigger 16 VEC's, but for example we will have 16 CEO's, 16 finance managers, 16 IT managers, and so on and so forth, who really aren't going to be needed. A bigger VEC just needs a CEO and a set of senior managers who can handle a bigger job, not two kings in the castle.

We also haven't set up 16 new quangos or bodies we can redeploy these CEO's and senior managers to.

Meanwhile, as they won't be replacing staff who leave for other reasons some of our new VEC's could get caught short in the event that specialists leave.

This is the Croke Park Agreement in action:

• We make a big cut (hooray!)
• One of the biggest costs is staff, which won't be cut
• We will have 16 sets of people who are redundant in function, Eg. CEO's, but not in job

I also wonder now will we hear that the OPW has locked most of them into 100 year leases that are watertight safe for the landlords.....

jmayo

Nijmegen wrote: »

So we're cutting our 33 VEC's in half, to 16, actually making a cut deeper than what An Bord Snip suggested.

I think this is a good idea on paper, we're a small country and don't need uniform VEC's for the whole country, rather VEC's that fit a population spread rather than a line on a map.

However, thanks to the Croke Park Agreement none of the staff will be let go.

Some of these staff will need to be rolled into the new bigger 16 VEC's, but for example we will have 16 CEO's, 16 finance managers, 16 IT managers, and so on and so forth, who really aren't going to be needed. A bigger VEC just needs a CEO and a set of senior managers who can handle a bigger job, not two kings in the castle.

We also haven't set up 16 new quangos or bodies we can redeploy these CEO's and senior managers to.

Meanwhile, as they won't be replacing staff who leave for other reasons some of our new VEC's could get caught short in the event that specialists leave.

This is the Croke Park Agreement in action:

• We make a big cut (hooray!)
• One of the biggest costs is staff, which won't be cut
• We will have 16 sets of people who are redundant in function, Eg. CEO's, but not in job

I also wonder now will we hear that the OPW has locked most of them into 100 year leases that are watertight safe for the landlords.....

You do remember how cutting the Health Boards worked out, don't you ?

Nijmegen

jmayo wrote: »

You do remember how cutting the Health Boards worked out, don't you ?

One of the VEC's had 5 schools assigned to it...

Riskymove

Nijmegen wrote: »

Some of these staff will need to be rolled into the new bigger 16 VEC's, but for example we will have 16 CEO's, 16 finance managers, 16 IT managers, and so on and so forth, who really aren't going to be needed. A bigger VEC just needs a CEO and a set of senior managers who can handle a bigger job, not two kings in the castle.

We also haven't set up 16 new quangos or bodies we can redeploy these CEO's and senior managers to.


..

actually under the CPA, surplus staff can be redeployed to other bodies or governement departments.

Nijmegen

Riskymove wrote: »

actually under the CPA, surplus staff can be redeployed to other bodies or governement departments.

As I said, do we have 16 quangos that need a new CEO? Or will we make them the best paid social welfare claim officers in the world? Or perhaps they can turn their hand to running diabetic clinics that lost their nurses to attrition?

You can't run an organisation based on the hope you'll have te right people to fill any gaps sitting idle elsewhere.

You hire and fire based on demand.

flutered

donegal was not touched, i wonder why.

ardmacha

These amalgamations make possible for organisations to continue without filling vacencies. And even if people have to moved elsewhere it makes better sense than paying big whacks of redundancy when there are an increasing number of vacencies elsewhere.

donegal was not touched, i wonder why.

Perhaps because it is a large and populous county?

dfbemt

ardmacha wrote: »

Perhaps because it is a large and populous county?

So is Meath but that was merged
So is Mayo but that was merged
So is Co. Dublin but that was merged
So is Kerry but that was merged
So is Kildare but that was merged
So is Galway but that was merged

Parish pump politics with 2 fingers for effect. Christ, do this lot not see what they are doing? :mad:

ardmacha

Merging Donegal education with its neighbours in Derry or Tyrone makes a lot of sense. But those counties are occupied by the British and it makes it all a lot more complex, so that one may have wait.

Riskymove

Nijmegen wrote: »

As I said, do we have 16 quangos that need a new CEO? Or will we make them the best paid social welfare claim officers in the world? Or perhaps they can turn their hand to running diabetic clinics that lost their nurses to attrition?

given the way things have been going over the last 2 years its quite possible both the 16 bodies going and the ones remaining are carrying vacancies which can be filled from those going

CEO of a VEC could quite easily be incorporated into senior management in Depts or other bodies....they do not have to be given clerical work

we are talking about administrative structures...not specialist areas like health

You can't run an organisation based on the hope you'll have te right people to fill any gaps sitting idle elsewhere.

I agree...but that doesn't mean you ignore any such idle staff that are there or simply fire them...you should aim to make use of the talents of your staff first

Nijmegen

Riskymove wrote: »

I agree...but that doesn't mean you ignore any such idle staff that are there or simply fire them...you should aim to make use of the talents of your staff first

If a business shuts down a department, it fires the workers it doesn't need.

It also hires the workers it needs to replace.

Reason I give the diabetic clinic example is because I know of an outpatient clinic that is being shut down because the two nurses assigned to it are leaving.

If we fired the CEO of a now defunct VEC we could afford to hire two new nurses for a diabetic clinic elsewhere.

Said clinic would prevent patients from becoming sick and having to go into hospital, making us a further save.

This is how you run a functional organisation or country.

And this is why the Croke Park No Cuts, No Firing, No Hiring deal is so regressive, backwards and is part of the union movement to hobble the country.

Unions used to stand for something everyone could buy into.

These days they quietly screw over pensioners, the sick, the disabled and the destitute for their own clique of interests.

They're as bad as any bankers.

Bits_n_Bobs

From the indo article linked above:
Among the many politically sensitive decisions to be taken will be the location of VEC headquarters.

Amazing and sadly not surprising. Instead of getting into the nitty gritty of how close to 2,000 employees will be redeployed in an efficient manner, the **** in the dail will be having the usual bun fight over whose constituency benefits from the new super-quango.

This in the same week as the spotlight is on the childrens hospital location...

jmayo

Riskymove wrote: »

given the way things have been going over the last 2 years its quite possible both the 16 bodies going and the ones remaining are carrying vacancies which can be filled from those going

CEO of a VEC could quite easily be incorporated into senior management in Depts or other bodies....they do not have to be given clerical work
...

The one we have too much of in the public sector is CEOs and managers. :rolleyes:
It is people on the ground actually bloody doing the work providing services to end users that is what is needed.
All f***ing cheifs and no indians is what we have.

Riskymove

jmayo wrote: »

The one we have too much of in the public sector is CEOs and managers. :rolleyes:
It is people on the ground actually bloody doing the work providing services to end users that is what is needed.
All f***ing cheifs and no indians is what we have.

there are 2,000 to be merged apparantly....16 are CEOs

ILA

Riskymove wrote: »

there are 2,000 to be merged apparantly....16 are CEOs

How many are "Managers"?

Riskymove

ILA wrote: »

How many are "Managers"?

as an example...Dublin City VEC list 12 people under the heading 'management'

so if the 16 had something similar ...lets say 200 people

most of them are at PO or AP grade so could easily redeploy to departments to replace the many who have left under retirement schemes

meglome

My business deals with the VEC's and they are pretty useless. Can take 3 months to get paid. I have no idea what half the staff do. Haven't looked at the detail of this and I already know this government couldn't organise a prayer group in a monastery but in principle it's a good thing.

ShumanTheHuman

Riskymove wrote: »

as an example...Dublin City VEC list 12 people under the heading 'management'

so if the 16 had something similar ...lets say 200 people

most of them are at PO or AP grade so could easily redeploy to departments to replace the many who have left under retirement schemes

Not that it makes much difference but the CDVEC , is the largest vec and not effected by the restructuring, perhaps now overtaken by Co Dublin. The management structures of all vecs are not the same. Wexford has four managers for example. I'd say the figure is less than 80 managers. AFAIK VEC Ceos had to have been teachers, say there 1 Education Officer, who are teachers, in each of the merged VECs, that 32 managers who can go back to teaching leaving less than 50 managers. Natural wastage, by the time the mergers happen could bring the numbers closer to 40. Redeploying 40 managers seems very doable. Maintenance staff mostly work in the schools so most won't be effected any slack could again be easily redeployed, its the Admin Grade III - VIIs that will be more problematic

Head The Wall

The big question what is the amount of money they have speculated that this will save.

dfbemt

ardmacha wrote: »

Merging Donegal education with its neighbours in Derry or Tyrone makes a lot of sense. But those counties are occupied by the British and it makes it all a lot more complex, so that one may have wait.

Those counties are in a different country. Ireland and the UK have different education systems but Donegal and Leitrim and Sligo, who are in the same country, have the same education system.

The only difference between them is that one has the Minister for Education, or whatever she is called now. Hence, the county with the Minister remains unchanged whereas the counties which are larger and more populated but do not have a minister get merged.

Complete b*ll*cks

ardmacha

The savings in Donegal in public services, whether education or health, largely lie in the coordination with parts of the country that are nearest, not amalgamation with places 100km away to placate narrow minded 26-countyism.

thebman

Riskymove wrote: »

as an example...Dublin City VEC list 12 people under the heading 'management'

so if the 16 had something similar ...lets say 200 people

most of them are at PO or AP grade so could easily redeploy to departments to replace the many who have left under retirement schemes

Where are you going to redeploy them when all services are being cut and even if they are required we cannot afford them?

The redeployment is where all this extra waste will get hidden. You can just keep moving people around when any waste is uncovered at an expense and with no actual savings taking place.

ardmacha

I don't know why people are no negative about this particular change. The demand for vocational education has not decreased, in fact it has increased significantly. The recruitment embargo means that the administrative support for this increased demand has decreased. The government propose a rearrangement to facilitate reorganisation to deal with decreased numbers and everyone here is criticising them. Now you can argue for further change, but in fact this is exactly the kind of thing that should be done. With paycuts and reduced numbers and increased service this sector will be about a third more efficient at the end of this process. If all of Irish industry became one third more efficient we would not be in the mess we are in.

Head The Wall

Thats all good and well but the point initially raised is what are the 16 bosses of said VEC's going to be doing. You can be sure it won't be admin work and they will continue to get paid. What they will be paid for is the question and will they be able to be redeployed to a suitable position within a 45 mile radius or will we end up paying up disturbance money at silly levels like before.

macannrb

ardmacha wrote: »

I don't know why people are no negative about this particular change.

I think the mood is that the government is bad at management, and bad at change management. The government is good at spin, headlines and diverting attention. Look at the waste that went into decentralisation, the waste that there is in the HSE etc. How much have the government got out of the croke park agreement in terms of improvements in work practices....

Compare this to what O'leary did with ryanair eg, went to southern airlines to learn the tricks of the trade and then applied them in a small irish airline. He didnt bother with any expensive consultancy reports as teh government likes to do. What experience do our current leaders have at management or change management.... do they bother to take time out to learn it for themselves?

So it might be a good headline, but we all know at this stage that the governments ability, whatever the party, is usually poor at best when it comes to change or management.

dfbemt

ardmacha wrote: »

The savings in Donegal in public services, whether education or health, largely lie in the coordination with parts of the country that are nearest, not amalgamation with places 100km away to placate narrow minded 26-countyism.

I completely disagree and not just with the narrow minded comment about 26 countyism. Fact is, we are a 26 county state. There is an international border in place. Things are different on either side of that border. Donegal has neighbours in Sligo and Leitrim. In fact Bundoran, a town in Donegal, sits on the Leitrim border and is no more than 5km away from the Sligo border with Leitrim.

I'm sure the TD's in Donegal who claimed approx €20k in expenses for travelling to the Dail each 3 months (even when they are on holidays) wouldnot like to hear you say they should be Northern Ireland, aka the 6 counties, politicians.

Don't forget that the Good Friday Agreement, which gave way to our claim on Northern Ireland, was accepted by the majority of people in the free Republic.

ardmacha wrote: »

I don't know why people are no negative about this particular change.

Again, you appear to be incorrect on this matter. Most people are happy that there are potential savings to be made It would appear from reading the posts that most people are
a) unhappy that Donegal has been left as is when larger and more populated counties have been merged with others. Mary Coughlan is a Donegal TD and the relevant minister for VEC's and this decision stinks of the usual short sighted narrow minded politics we have experienced for decades
b) have no faith in the government to deliver the potential savings. Less CEO's for a start but what will happen to the current postholders and how much will it cost? See the posts below

Head The Wall wrote: »

Thats all good and well but the point initially raised is what are the 16 bosses of said VEC's going to be doing.

macannrb wrote: »

I think the mood is that the government is bad at management, and bad at change management. The government is good at spin, headlines and diverting attention. Look at the waste that went into decentralisation, the waste that there is in the HSE etc. How much have the government got out of the croke park agreement in terms of improvements in work practices...
.....
....So it might be a good headline, but we all know at this stage that the governments ability, whatever the party, is usually poor at best when it comes to change or management.

GoldenEarring

How can the OP say Cutting the VECs is a "great example of Croke Park in Action"?
The cuts are to be made because the TUI has NOT signed up to the Croke Park Deal!!!

dfbemt

GoldenEarring wrote: »

How can the OP say Cutting the VECs is a "great example of Croke Park in Action"?
The cuts are to be made because the TUI has NOT signed up to the Croke Park Deal!!!

Merging the VEC's has nothing to do with the TUI. Merging of VEC's was in the An Bord Snip report and in fact what is now proposed exceeds what is in that report.

What happens post merger is very much Croke Park and while some TUI members may be affected, there are a very many clerical and admin staff who are members of another union who will be affected.

budro

The VEC seems to be trying to grow right now. They are trying to get in to primary education, and in Wexford they are running a radio ad campaign to lobby for sponsorship of the new 2nd level school in Gorey . If this advertising was paid for from Dept. of Education funding it would be ironic.

JoeyW

Sorry if this has been posted already, I didn't get the chance to read everything.
I just don't see how this amalgamation is achievable without staff cuts and redundancies.
I work for a VEC myself and I know the management there are 30+ years in the company and don't like change. The majority of them can't use computers - I kid you not.
I just can't see how 2 APOs per VEC will work together, or 1 or 2 EOs and AEOs, they all have their own ways of doing things.
There has to be staff cuts. End of. Hopefully there will be reform to the Croke park agreement and soon.