Do neagtive reps work?

thehamo

So finally got back to the gym after a long lasting back injury. Taking it fairly easy in terms of the amount im lifting. Was doing pull ups the other day and I could manage a magic number ofm two! I finished off doing neagative reps, but to be honest, I cant see them helping in terms of being able to do more pull ups.

Do they?

dartstothesea

I've had to resort to loads of negatives myself for chin ups. I'm not too impressed with the improvement (lack of it) so far. I'd imagine doing the full movement with a lighter weight (as in assisted somehow) would be more beneficial. Dunno for sure though.

Mellor

do they work?
-Yes

but its a slow progression excercise, you aren't going to add reps every session/week

If you can only do 2 reps of pull-ups then do chin-ups for while

jugger0

Ive never done them, i can do around 20 pullups these days never did assisted machine pullups or any of that lark... If you want to get good at pullups your going to have to do pullups! proper pullups.

So did you just do 2 pullups and call it quits?

ApeXaviour

kipping pullups are a decent progression exercise... once you can do a good few of them then a couple of deadhang pullups shouldn't be a problem

xgtdec

I normally get one of those half a bouncing pod things(dont know the real name) underneath and use it to spring up and then hold myself on the way down, looks a bit girly may be but it better than not doing them i guess

rubadub

They worked extremely well for me.

jugger0 wrote: »

Ive never done them, i can do around 20 pullups these days never did assisted machine pullups or any of that lark

So what did you start out at? could you do a single one, if people are overweight I doubt they could manage one.

rubadub wrote: »

You have to start somewhere, the problem is you are dealing with a fixed weight, personally I was overweight when I started so that was even more difficult. I found negatives really good since it meant you went through the full ROM. Imagine a beginner starting out with a 100kg barbell to do deadlifts, or a 40kg bar doing curls, and each week just pulling on it and maybe budging it maybe an inch, your body is just not used to the movement.

So if somebody is advising the best method is to just struggle on and do 1 or 2 per set -or none at all, then would they also advise just struggling with higher weights for other exercises is the best method too?

You could also start doing body rows.

Molly

ApeXaviour wrote: »

kipping pullups are a decent progression exercise... once you can do a good few of them then a couple of deadhang pullups shouldn't be a problem

Not really, it's a totally different movement.

ApeXaviour

Molly wrote: »

Not really, it's a totally different movement.

Squatting is a totally different movement.

If you're able to do 20-30 kipping pullups then a handful of deadhangs are no problem.

Especially if you can't kip properly...

d'Oracle

I'd agree with Molly.

Brian?

Don't think there is anything wrong with doing negatives, apart from the DOMS.

But to progress progress to wide grip pullups:

1 Inverted rows
2 Chin ups
3 Pull ups

Molly

Are you going to tell me that because I start with the bar on the ground that and finish with it overhead that a clean and jerk and snatch are the same movement as well? That's about how similar dead hang pull ups and kipping are.

Look, if you want to do dead hang pull ups practice negatives and band assisted dead hang pull ups don't bother with kipping pull ups as you're just wasting your time.

Edwardius

ApeXaviour wrote: »

Squatting is a totally different movement.

If you're able to do 20-30 kipping pullups then a handful of deadhangs are no problem.

Especially if you can't kip properly...

But you could do deadhangs before you ever started kipping right? People that have wide graceful arcing kips can actually suck at strict pullups. I know someone that could do 13 kipping pullups but not a single deadhang. Band work seemed to work a lot better than negatives to allow them to progress to strict pullups.

d'Oracle

I can't kip.
I can do Pullups. (just not many, cos I'm obese)

rubadub

Dead Ed wrote: »

I know someone that could do 13 kipping pullups but not a single deadhang.

I have done about 20 chins and a single chin with 50% BW added (42.5kg), but I cannot do a single kipping pullup, not even close, and I have tried a fair few times.

I never even thought of chin vs. pullups, I would start out on chins as they are easier for most people, but maybe the OP already meant chins. Pullups -palms away, chins -palms facing you.

Edwardius

rubadub wrote: »

I have done about 20 chins and a single chin with 50% BW added (42.5kg), but I cannot do a single kipping pullup, not even close, and I have tried a fair few times.

You use the doorway bars right? They absolutely suck for kipping. Also, Kipping is a skill in and of itself. If you can do a large number of strict pullups it'll help with getting the kip sorted but you'll be pulling with the arms more before you get accustomed to using your hips to inititate the pull (it's vaguely analagous to a power clean in this regard) and timing is a big issue too.

rubadub

Dead Ed wrote: »

You use the doorway bars right? They absolutely suck for kipping.

I only tried kipping on outdoor solid bars, I would never attempt it on a doorway bar, there a quite large forces generated let alone the ceiling etc being in the way.

Dead Ed wrote: »

Also, Kipping is a skill in and of itself.

timing is a big issue too.

Indeed, I would have thought most would want to be able to do a pullup before being able to do a kip though. It takes practise to get the kipping, as I was fairly OK at pullups it meant I could do lots of practise kips but still got nowhere. If I did not have the strength to do a single pullup I dunno how I could ever do a pullup, I would be worn out after the first attempt.

Others obviously do have more timing skill & co-ordination so can do it, I have none at all, if I dared set foot on a dancefloor people would ring the local zoo to report an escaped gorilla

thehamo

I've been trying to do wide grip pull ups palms away from me for my back. I heard chins are more for the arms than for your back. Maybe it's a slow process, try add a rep every 2 sessios or something. At the moment I do 2 reps and about 3x10 sets of negatives

rubadub

thehamo wrote: »

I've been trying to do wide grip pull ups palms away from me for my back.

Well you are starting out trying a harder variation. I can probably do less than half the wide grip ones that I can normal pullups (palms away), I think I only managed 5 wide grip ones last time I tried. So I would just do normal pullups and once you get past 12 (or whatever) reps then start to widen the grip. Normal ones will still work your back.

Usually people would start with what is easiest and then progress to harder variations.

I see in my log in one session I did 18 neutral grip pullups (palms facing each other) and only managed 5 wide grip neutral grip ones after it.

cmyk

Depending on the height of the bar and/or the height of you, you could try jacknife pullups. I tried these and they seemed to help for a while.

I'd also agree if the goal is pullups, you've got to practice that movement (not kip), be it negatives/band assisted or the below...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpTPJsNDHxE

ApeXaviour

Okay fair enough doing wild swinging backwards-C, perfect ****ing form kipping pullups, may be a bit like asking a discus thrower to shotput.

But most people can't do those...

Putting a bit of a kip (or kick) into your pullup, like a cheating deadhang, to help you get above the bar... you can't tell me there's no crossover.

And ed I could do perhaps one-two strict pullups originally. It was my crappy, inefficient and uncoordinated kipping that got me able to do more.

BobbyOLeary

rubadub wrote: »

Indeed, I would have thought most would want to be able to do a pullup before being able to do a kip though.

I dunno, my GF can kip 1-2 pullups but couldn't do a deadhang to save her life.

Getting a kipping pullup feels like a pullup to someone who is crap at regular ones so I guess they're happy to do kipping ones first? I'm not in favour of kipping pullups for folks who can't do deadhangs. I've no evidence but I figure it can't be too beneficial for a weak shoulder girdle to be put under the stress of kipping. Also, provided you're playing a "normal" sport (and are male) you've got a serious imbalance if you can't knock out some deadhang pullups.

The Face of 70's Big wrote:

it's vaguely analagous to a power clean in this regard

Your face is vaguely analagous to a power clean in this regard.

ApeXaviour wrote:

Okay fair enough doing wild swinging backwards-C, perfect ****ing form kipping pullups, may be a bit like asking a discus thrower to shotput.

But most people can't do those...

Putting a bit of a kip (or kick) into your pullup, like a cheating deadhang, to help you get above the bar... you can't tell me there's no crossover.

I'll give you a personal anecdote, at my crossfitting peak I could kip 32 pullups in a row while doing 10 deadhangs. Before this I had gotten to 24 kipping/4 deadhang. My deadhangs didn't improve from big kips and my kipping ones didn't improve substantially from deadhangs.

As for kicking a little bit to get over the edge, that's not really a kip. That said yes it can help you get more volume on your pullups. It's essentially an assisted pullup.