PGDE advice

Goosewad

I need to choose a minor pedagogy for my PGDE/HDip.

My question is: if I have not done a subject at degree level but have done the pedagogy will I have more of a chance of a school letting me teach that subject? I was thinking of choosing Irish but I'm also interested in Science. Do you think that a school would allow someone to teach JC Science without having had any experience before (ie. If I didn't do the pedagogy)?

Also, do people think schools take into account what other pedagogy you may have done if you hadn't actually done the subject as part of your degree?

[My degree is in maths so I am not going to be able to be registered as a teacher in any other subject anyway]

Thanks in advance.

rainbowtrout

Goosewad wrote: »

I need to choose a minor pedagogy for my PGDE/HDip.

My question is: if I have not done a subject at degree level but have done the pedagogy will I have more of a chance of a school letting me teach that subject? I was thinking of choosing Irish but I'm also interested in Science. Do you think that a school would allow someone to teach JC Science without having had any experience before (ie. If I didn't do the pedagogy)?

Also, do people think schools take into account what other pedagogy you may have done if you hadn't actually done the subject as part of your degree?

[My degree is in maths so I am not going to be able to be registered as a teacher in any other subject anyway]

Thanks in advance.

Sure why don't you add French and Woodwork to your list while you're at it. :mad:

Seriously if you had a child entering a secondary school and were told that your child's science teacher had no qualifications in the subject but was given classes because she felt like teaching it would you be happy???

You can't just decide you feel like teaching a subject with no qualifications in it. Sure if that's the case why does anyone go to college at all, sure wouldn't we all be grand going teaching after completing our Leaving Cert???

I didn't spend four years doing a Science degree so I could teach the subject competently so anyone could just sign up to teach my subjects without any qualifications in it.

Goosewad

Ok... I don't think that reaction was warranted but maybe I should I have fleshed things out some more.

I have to choose a minor subject. I do not have any obvious choices, as my degree is in maths. So I think, understandably, I want to choose a subject I am interested in. I liked most subjects in school and did physics and chemistry for the leaving. I am not claiming that would automatically make me a good teacher I just think it would be a good reason to choose the subject, no? Similarly, I like Irish.

I suppose what I should have asked is: what do people think a the better subject to pick would be? Perhaps what I said didn't come across right, I'm simply torn on what to pick... and I'm also wondering if it even matters (as a school might not care anyway if I haven't done it as part of my degree).

But if a school did allow me to teach up to Junior Cert level, then that would be great. That's what my intial post is trying to find out. I have heard of things like this happening, but maybe I am wrong.

I'm simply looking to make a good choice that might be useful at some later stage in my teaching career. If anyone has anything helpful to say I'd really appreciate that. Didn't mean to come across as blaise about teaching and what a person's qualifications are at all. I care a lot about what I am doing!

Lord TSC

I think that in theory, it doesn't matter if you've done the methodologies or whatever, if you don't have the qualification, you can't teach it. In reality though, there are certain subjects you seem to be able to "get away" with and certain schools who will let you do so, unfortunatly.

I was in a similar position and ended up taking CSPE since, while I am not supposed to teach it in schools, the reality seemed to be that a lot of teachers who teach it don't even have the pedagogy done, let alone the qualifications.

dory

Goosewad wrote: »

Ok... I don't think that reaction was warranted but maybe I should I have fleshed things out some more.

I have to choose a minor subject. I do not have any obvious choices, as my degree is in maths. So I think, understandably, I want to choose a subject I am interested in. I liked most subjects in school and did physics and chemistry for the leaving. I am not claiming that would automatically make me a good teacher I just think it would be a good reason to choose the subject, no? Similarly, I like Irish.

I suppose what I should have asked is: what do people think a the better subject to pick would be? Perhaps what I said didn't come across right, I'm simply torn on what to pick... and I'm also wondering if it even matters (as a school might not care anyway if I haven't done it as part of my degree).

But if a school did allow me to teach up to Junior Cert level, then that would be great. That's what my intial post is trying to find out. I have heard of things like this happening, but maybe I am wrong.

I'm simply looking to make a good choice that might be useful at some later stage in my teaching career. If anyone has anything helpful to say I'd really appreciate that. Didn't mean to come across as blaise about teaching and what a person's qualifications are at all. I care a lot about what I am doing!

I agree with the above posters but I also see your point so I'll just give some opinions.

I think you should go with a subject that is not taken 100% seriously. So Science should be out. That said, it's not unheard of for Science and Maths to be interchangeable when it comes to assigning classes. But really, Science is seen as a serious thing and you would be very unlikely to get hours in it. Same with Irish. Unless you're fluent and/or a native speaker you're very unlikely to be given hours with no degree. If on the other hand you pick religion/computers/CSPE you're increasing your chances of getting hours that seem to in general be thrown to whoever is in need of a timetable filler.

At the end of the day you'll be getting a job based on maths only anyway.

rainbowtrout

dory wrote: »

I agree with the above posters but I also see your point so I'll just give some opinions.

I think you should go with a subject that is not taken 100% seriously. So Science should be out. That said, it's not unheard of for Science and Maths to be interchangeable when it comes to assigning classes. But really, Science is seen as a serious thing and you would be very unlikely to get hours in it. Same with Irish. Unless you're fluent and/or a native speaker you're very unlikely to be given hours with no degree. If on the other hand you pick religion/computers/CSPE you're increasing your chances of getting hours that seem to in general be thrown to whoever is in need of a timetable filler.

At the end of the day you'll be getting a job based on maths only anyway.

I think the reason that happens is that a lot of Science teachers do Maths in the first year of their degree. I know I did. However there are a lot of people who do Maths degree who do not do Science. It tends to go the other way much more often.

In my school and I would see this regularly in other schools and from talking to other science teachers, a lot of science teachers are given maths classes but not the other way around.

rainbowtrout

Goosewad wrote: »

Ok... I don't think that reaction was warranted but maybe I should I have fleshed things out some more.

I have to choose a minor subject. I do not have any obvious choices, as my degree is in maths. So I think, understandably, I want to choose a subject I am interested in. I liked most subjects in school and did physics and chemistry for the leaving. I am not claiming that would automatically make me a good teacher I just think it would be a good reason to choose the subject, no? Similarly, I like Irish.

I suppose what I should have asked is: what do people think a the better subject to pick would be? Perhaps what I said didn't come across right, I'm simply torn on what to pick... and I'm also wondering if it even matters (as a school might not care anyway if I haven't done it as part of my degree).

But if a school did allow me to teach up to Junior Cert level, then that would be great. That's what my intial post is trying to find out. I have heard of things like this happening, but maybe I am wrong.

I'm simply looking to make a good choice that might be useful at some later stage in my teaching career. If anyone has anything helpful to say I'd really appreciate that. Didn't mean to come across as blaise about teaching and what a person's qualifications are at all. I care a lot about what I am doing!

I am entitled to my opinion and this is a public forum.

It doesn't matter what pedagogy classes you sign up for, you still don't have the necessary degree qualifications. It has nothing to do with whether you are a good teacher or not. You haven't studied the material at degree level is the point.

What will happen at an interview (say for a Maths and Science job) is the following:

Interviewer:So you've done your PGDE in Maths and Science..
You: Yes
Interviewer: But you have no qualifications in Science....
You: No

End of interview.

The PGDE is a teaching qualification. Your degree determines what you teach. So pick anything you like for pedagogy, but you will only be able to teach maths at the end of the day.

Goosewad

Thanks for the replies,

I would not ever think I could apply for a job advertising Science/Irish having done only the pedagogy, I'm not that daft!

For the sake of discussion though: what really distinguishes someone who does Maths as part of first year science or business then dropping it after that year (could be someone who was not that strong at maths in school) from someone who does 2 science subjects for the leaving cert, in terms of their ability to teach maths or science respectively? I would estimate not a lot.

But I take on board your point completely, I know it qualifies me for zilch. I just wanted to know if it had ever been heard of someone being allowed to teach up to JC science without being qualified.

Computers is mandatory and CSPE is an elective option, so neither of these are options for my minor. Would have chosen CSPE otherwise.

wanttoteach

What college are you in out of interest?

I never knew you could choose a minor pedagogy.

Goosewad

Trinity. As far as I'm aware - you choose one in UCD too.

You don't do the assignments for your minor in Trinity but you must attend.

Gaeilgeoir

I'm in a similar situation as my degree is in Irish & I have no other teaching subject. I have a postgraduate diploma in accounting but that seems to count for nothing. From the TCD course description they don't seem to mind what minor you pick as long as it doesn't clash with the timetable. I intend to apply with Irish as my major and business as my minor.

To be honest, business is a subject that you don't need a degree to teach. Science is a different story as students will need a lot more help understanding the concepts and theories involved. Similarly you'd have to be a very strong Irish speaker to teach it. Maybe you could go for a subject like history or business that is fairly self-explanatory & where you wouldn't really need a degree in the subject?

rainbowtrout

Gaeilgeoir wrote: »

Maybe you could go for a subject like history or business that is fairly self-explanatory & where you wouldn't really need a degree in the subject?

I'm sure all the history and business teachers would love to hear that. At least they bothered to get a qualification and have an interest in the subject.

I am sick of seeing posts where people think you can go in and teach a subject with the information you've read off the back of a cornflakes box.:mad:

We only have one qualified history teacher in our school, she's excellent but history is farmed out to anyone else with a gap in their timetable. None of them care about it as it's not their subject and it's just something they have to get through. The subject is suffering as a result, because students are given the impression that it's something that only has to be read out of a book and there's nothing more to it.:mad:

Chilli Con Kearney

I agree with your points, rainbow. I am studying to add extra subjects,in order to offer more in school and also to be more employable in case I need to move. But the (recently changed) reality is that it does not matter about subjects,qualifications,etc. Anybody can teach any subject now. Which therefore renders major/minor subjects (and the pgde) irrelevant. Thanks Mary for that.

gaeilgegrinds1

Rainbow Trout I have to say I agree with you. Boo hoo to those with one teaching subject, you'll get a job if it's a good one and you're lucky enough. It doesn't matter how many extra courses you take, you'll still not be qualified, end of. Saying certain subjects are easier to teach than others and randomly picking them is highly insulting to those subject teachers. We had a Dip attend subject lectures in 4 subjects and she was told she'd get certs for them all. She never got a cert for them and as she says herself wasted her time.

dory

I'm still curious, what should someone like Gaeilgeoir up there with one subject do? They still have to take two in the dip. Is the norm to take a subject just for the sake of it and then forget about that subject at the end of the year?

rainbowtrout

dory wrote: »

I'm still curious, what should someone like Gaeilgeoir up there with one subject do? They still have to take two in the dip. Is the norm to take a subject just for the sake of it and then forget about that subject at the end of the year?

Well as I said it makes no difference which other teaching methodologies they take. They may as well take pedagogy in Swahili....

The point is that there seems to be a growing number of people applying for/doing the PGDE who think that by doing the methodology for a subject that somehow that's enough to teach the subject.

If they want to be more qualified they should study for another course, be it through Open University, Oscail or by taking modules through one of the regular universities to get their credits up to scratch in their chosen area.

I'm a qualified science teacher (ag science, biology, chemistry) and I'm doing a maths degree through the Open University, I've picked one of the degrees that is recognised by the Teaching Council so I'll have a recognised maths qualification which will enable me to teach the subject. I'm hoping at the end of it that I might get some maths in school at some stage and that I'll be allowed go to some maths inservice as well. It's a long way off yet and I'm in no rush to get there, but I get infuriated by those who think methodologies are a substitute for a degree.

Chilli Con Kearney

Agree with the above. Dory, don't make the mistake of thinking that by taking a subject methodology, you'll improve in that subject. This is not the case. You could do a science degree and choose history and geography as your PGDE methodologies but you would only be qualified to teach science. You need to do extra modules with the Open University or one/two evenings a week in UCD, DCU, etc to get the extra qualifications for subjects.

As I stated before however, the playing field has changed somewhat in recent weeks in that "Unqualified teachers" can now be employed to teach subjects, therefore rendering the PGDE worthless.

Lord TSC

Dory, don't make the mistake of thinking that by taking a subject methodology, you'll improve in that subject.

Quote for truth.
I don't know about the other colleges but one thing which annoyed me about NUIM was how little time was given to covering the subject and how most of the time was given to HOW to teach in the subject.

Rosita

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Quote for truth.
I don't know about the other colleges but one thing which annoyed me about NUIM was how little time was given to covering the subject and how most of the time was given to HOW to teach in the subject.

I don't understand this annoyance.

People study for their degree to gain a level of competence in a subject area. The PGDE teaching methodology - as the name suggests - deals with methods of teaching the subject, with the reasonable assumption being that the required level of competence is there in the actual subject already.

To expect otherwise is to misunderstand the nature and intent of the PGDE surely?

dory

Pardon me, I mustn't have been clear enough.

I was asking what a person with one degree should do when doing the PDGE. No mention of teaching afterwards. I 100% agree that if you don't have a degree in a subject you don't teach it. But still, a person with one teachable subject HAS to take 2 subjects for PDGE. Or am I wrong?

rainbowtrout

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Quote for truth.
I don't know about the other colleges but one thing which annoyed me about NUIM was how little time was given to covering the subject and how most of the time was given to HOW to teach in the subject.

The purpose of the PGDE is not to teach you your subject, it's to show you how to teach it. You should already know your subject from your degree.

Lord TSC

Rosita wrote: »

I don't understand this annoyance.

People study for their degree to gain a level of competence in a subject area. The PGDE teaching methodology - as the name suggests - deals with methods of teaching the subject, with the reasonable assumption being that the required level of competence is there in the actual subject already.

To expect otherwise is to misunderstand the nature and intent of the PGDE surely?

The purpose of the PGDE is not to teach you your subject, it's to show you how to teach it. You should already know your subject from your degree.

I guess I should be clearer then.

With a lot of what I was teaching last year during the PGDE, the last time I had covered it was when I was back in Secondary school. Maybe it's different for teachers of other subjects. I have an English degree and MA, but I felt that there wasn't a huge amount of crossover there. It's not as if I can do much about Postcolonial Cultures and Empires during a JC course.

I've got no problem with the methodologies at all. I think they are vital. But I felt that there could have been some time spent just doing some quick summaries and coverage of the junior and leaving cert course and what to expect. Extra classes instead of some of the useless nonsense classes we did or instead of the stupid projects (I know I go on about the Diviate thing, but I can never stress how utterly stupid I felt it was).

My biggest problem last year was trying to come down to the student's level. I went in with my college level knowledge and had a hard time trying to relearn the secondary school level. It was a frustration which I felt wasn't dealt with at all during the PGDE but instead, I had to rely on the awesome teachers working in the school. I can only imagine how tough it might have been if people had been out of the secondary system longer than I had and did not have the help and support within the school.

rainbowtrout

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I guess I should be clearer then.

With a lot of what I was teaching last year during the PGDE, the last time I had covered it was when I was back in Secondary school. Maybe it's different for teachers of other subjects. I have an English degree and MA, but I felt that there wasn't a huge amount of crossover there. It's not as if I can do much about Postcolonial Cultures and Empires during a JC course.

I've got no problem with the methodologies at all. I think they are vital. But I felt that there could have been some time spent just doing some quick summaries and coverage of the junior and leaving cert course and what to expect. Extra classes instead of some of the useless nonsense classes we did or instead of the stupid projects (I know I go on about the Diviate thing, but I can never stress how utterly stupid I felt it was).

My biggest problem last year was trying to come down to the student's level. I went in with my college level knowledge and had a hard time trying to relearn the secondary school level. It was a frustration which I felt wasn't dealt with at all during the PGDE but instead, I had to rely on the awesome teachers working in the school. I can only imagine how tough it might have been if people had been out of the secondary system longer than I had and did not have the help and support within the school.

I accept that English degrees may have a wider range than science or maths for example but at the end of the day if you have qualified with an English degree and a masters in the subject, they do expect that you can read Hamlet/whatever else is on the JC/LC course and understand it without having to teach it to you.

This is what happens when a syllabus changes. Keeping with English seeing as it's your subject. I, like a large number of people in this country studied Soundings for LC and did the poetry of Kavanagh, Yeats, Keats, Eliot etc. That syllabus has since changed and from what I know Eavan Boland is now on the course. It could well change again in another 10 years. What are you going to do then when it changes - say 'sorry i didn't study that poet in college' or sit down and study the poem and do some work on it? From what I understand of English there is a list of about 30 novels from which LC English teachers can choose a novel to study for the comparative for LC. Most will opt for the common ones but that doesn't mean they can't choose another novel. What if you end up in a school that's teaching a novel you haven't read. Are you going to tell them, sorry I didn't read that one, I've never had classes in it or are you going to read it and make notes on it. I haven't studied English at third level, so I could be wrong, but I would imagine that when you study poetry and prose you learn the skill of understanding what is going on in the poem and you are able to pick out the underlying themes in a novel.

If you haven't learned that by the end of the degree, the PGDE won't teach it to you.

And you can't rely on what you learned in school. Not everyone qualifies in a subject they did for LC. You get hold of the relevant syllabus and have a read of it or at the very least get hold of the relevant textbook and that should give you an idea of what you should be teaching.

Rosita

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I accept that English degrees may have a wider range than science or maths for example but at the end of the day if you have qualified with an English degree and a masters in the subject, they do expect that you can read Hamlet/whatever else is on the JC/LC course and understand it without having to teach it to you.

This is what happens when a syllabus changes. Keeping with English seeing as it's your subject. I, like a large number of people in this country studied Soundings for LC and did the poetry of Kavanagh, Yeats, Keats, Eliot etc. That syllabus has since changed and from what I know Eavan Boland is now on the course. It could well change again in another 10 years. What are you going to do then when it changes - say 'sorry i didn't study that poet in college' or sit down and study the poem and do some work on it? From what I understand of English there is a list of about 30 novels from which LC English teachers can choose a novel to study for the comparative for LC. Most will opt for the common ones but that doesn't mean they can't choose another novel. What if you end up in a school that's teaching a novel you haven't read. Are you going to tell them, sorry I didn't read that one, I've never had classes in it or are you going to read it and make notes on it. I haven't studied English at third level, so I could be wrong, but I would imagine that when you study poetry and prose you learn the skill of understanding what is going on in the poem and you are able to pick out the underlying themes in a novel.

If you haven't learned that by the end of the degree, the PGDE won't teach it to you.

And you can't rely on what you learned in school. Not everyone qualifies in a subject they did for LC. You get hold of the relevant syllabus and have a read of it or at the very least get hold of the relevant textbook and that should give you an idea of what you should be teaching.

when you study poetry and prose you learn the skill of understanding what is going on in the poem and you are able to pick out the underlying themes in a novel.

I studied English at third level and what is written here is precisely right. You study a necessarily limited number of texts in college but what you are doing is learning skills of analysis and criticism. The actual texts are neither here nor there.

More often than not I have been teaching texts I have not done before and have had to familiarise myself with them beforehand, but they can always be thought about in terms of how they deal with various themes as any under-graduate will have encountered.

Like you say, you learn skills rather than texts in college or at least that's the idea. And yes teaching English does involve reading novels, plays, poems and short stories you have not read before.

Goosewad

:rolleyes:

People are getting lost here... I MUST pick another subject. It is necessary. My question was whether one might be more useful than the other.

I agree with everybody on how it sucks that unqualified/disinterested people are teaching certain subjects. At the same time however, you seem to have confirmed that this is indeed a reality. So, my question clearly isn't redundant.

If I am in position to do so financially in the future I would genuinely love to get extra qualifications in something else, even if don't end up teaching forever. Right now though, I just have to pick a minor in my PGDE.

rainbowtrout

Goosewad wrote: »

:rolleyes:

People are getting lost here... I MUST pick another subject. It is necessary. My question was whether one might be more useful than the other.

I agree with everybody on how it sucks that unqualified/disinterested people are teaching certain subjects. At the same time however, you seem to have confirmed that this is indeed a reality. So, my question clearly isn't redundant.

If I am in position to do so financially in the future I would genuinely love to get extra qualifications in something else, even if don't end up teaching forever. Right now though, I just have to pick a minor in my PGDE.

No they're not getting lost. They're saying it makes no difference as you won't be able to teach it. So realistically you may as well pick SPHE or CSPE and be done with it, you might find when you do your teaching practice picking a subject that you don't have a degree in won't work as the school won't give you hours in the subject. Couldn't see my school giving you science hours when you don't have a science degree. Most schools however will give you CSPE/SPHE.

Chilli Con Kearney

If your degree only allows you to teach one subject, then it doesn't really matter what subject you pick as your minor. Go for one you are interested I suppose. Or one that is somewhat related/relevant to your degree. You won't be teaching it anyway.

That's the honest answer. Unless of course, you would go and study it by night after the PGDE to gain recognition.

sjms

I think this is absolutely ridiculous. I am in Trinity and they force you to take a minor if your subject is not Modern Languages or Science - I am lucky because I am in one of those. However, there are many people in my pedagogy class who have done nothing to do with the subject since leaving cert level. They seem to think that if they show up to this, (all they do is sit there and dose off) they will somehow be more employable. As far as I am concerned, if you have a degree in history and decide to do a pedagogy in Irish because you 'liked it' or were 'good at it' in school is plain foolishness. NO board of management would hire you for that subject, so just to let you know, DO not apply for jobs in that area.

Gaeilgeoir

While I will have to choose a minor pedagogy as part of the PGDE in Trinity, I don't assume I'll be able to teach this subject upon qualification. I realise I will only be qualified as an Irish teacher, it's merely a case of having to choose a minor pedagogy, simple as that.

Dionysus

Just to put the rest of you wise:

One of my degree subjects is politics. Based on what many people would say, it is the degree subject which is the basis of teaching council recognition for me to teach, say, CSPE.

Alas, you'd be wrong.

CSPE is one of the nine subjects for which you need the teaching methodology on the PGDE course - the degree alone is not sufficient in order for the Teaching Council to recognise you as a teacher of it. I assumed it would be. But, just my luck, they've made an exception for my subject.

My post, with Teaching Council references, can be found here.


Just so the rest of you are aware of this.

roe_cat

Goosewad - just wondering - are you putting a second subject down on your application or is this in anticipation of choosing methodology courses next year?