Atheist/Agnostic view of the role of the local church

Ismhunter

I was going to put this on the christian board and ask the lurkers for their view but why not just go to the source!

Im looking for the opinions of the non-church going crowd on what if any role the local church should have in the community. Im not intending to respond to the answers just want to see the opinions out there.

Thanks

ColmDawson

The elderly get to leave their houses for a bit.

sonicthebadger*

This is a really great question and I thought I would have answers, but I don't. I realised it boils down to the fact that no matter what role I can conceive of for my local PP he represents nobody. Even the people who allow him to speak for them did not elect him, he was foisted on them from afar, by someone who has possibly never even been to the parish. The very appointment in such a fashion of a 'leader' is a throw back to feudal society. It has no place in a democracy.

There are priests I can think of (few) who are really great, but they could be equally great working for the government without the supernatural element. And they would make fantastic parents. Actually one of the ones I'm thinking of got married a few years back so he's not a priest now.

Much like those beautiful and massive houses about the place, it'd be nice to be able to rent the space out for photographs and events and the like.

legspin

A good source of recycled masonry materials and pretty coloured glass.

robindch

Ismhunter wrote: »

what if any role the local church should have in the community.

They're good for organ practice and I think they should be free to use by anybody getting married, introducing their kids to society, that kind of thing. And socials all day Sunday with a bit of bread and wine thrown in for free.

Basically, what they're used for at the moment, just without the religion.

Beruthiel

Ismhunter wrote: »

Im looking for the opinions of the non-church going crowd on what if any role the local church should have in the community.

The acoustics would be perfect for small, intimate gigs.

Shenshen

Ismhunter wrote: »

I was going to put this on the christian board and ask the lurkers for their view but why not just go to the source!

Im looking for the opinions of the non-church going crowd on what if any role the local church should have in the community. Im not intending to respond to the answers just want to see the opinions out there.

Thanks

Whichever role they want to play. As long as they're stopped from monopolising community life, I don't really mind what they do.
It's only when there's nothing you can do in the community that's not in one way or another linked to the church that I get a little annoyed.

Dades

I'm not sure what being an agnostic/atheist has to do with the role of the local church.

The local church should be there for those who want to avail of their services. Be those the staple fodder of the elderly and immigrants, and younger Irish actual catholics (as oppose to the lipservice type).

If they want to run local campaigns against certin things they see as detrimental to society, let them. We don't stop any other groups running campaigns.

The only caveat is schools. Let your flock come to you, don't go grooming the local school kids.

legspin

Beruthiel wrote: »

The acoustics would be perfect for small, intimate gigs.

Sacrificing virgins and roasting babies type of thing?

axer

Beruthiel wrote: »

The acoustics would be perfect for small, intimate gigs.

From my understanding the acoustics in most churches are crap due to hard solid walls and square/rectangular rooms. Audio bounces around too much.

The local church should be no more than any other organisation - there if people want to use it. They should not be overstepping that mark by interfering where they are not wanted.

Bduffman

Without the local church, who would supply the baptismal cert to get your child into the local school?

The whole system would fall apart.

Gregor Samsa

Ismhunter wrote: »

Im looking for the opinions of the non-church going crowd on what if any role the local church should have in the community. Im not intending to respond to the answers just want to see the opinions out there.

I have no problem with any church/mosque/synagogue/whatever being there and providing whatever services they want for their own followers.

What I do object to is the Catholic Church working under the assumption that everyone in their "parish" is one of them. I get a box of collection envelopes put through my door from the local CC every 3 months, then once or twice a year, two auld fellas call at the door looking for some more money "for the upkeep and cleaning" of a Church I've never set foot in, and probably never will.

The local African Charismatic church and the local Jehovah's Witnesses don't come bothering me for money, so why should the CC?

If any particular religion wants to do charitable work or provide services to the community, then fine - but let them fund it themselves, and let it be in addition to, not in place of, State funded services. By that I mean that the State (Local or Central Government) should not be relying on religious organisations providing community services that they should be providing themselves.

Nevyn

They should learn that the community is bigger then thier parish and to keep thier nose out of the business of those who are not thier flock and not seek to create records on children which are not of thier church or to assume that everyone they meet is in their parish.

Ismhunter

Bit disapointed with the replies. Maybe i should word the question different.
Assume that religion and churches will be around for ever. What do you the non-religious type in the neighbourhood think the church should do?

mikhail

Ismhunter wrote: »

Bit disapointed with the replies. Maybe i should word the question different.
Assume that religion and churches will be around for ever. What do you the non-religious type in the neighbourhood think the church should do?

Facilitate the religious practice of those who believe. Leave the rest of us the hell alone.

sonicthebadger*

And start baking some decent bread.

Osgoodisgood

Ismhunter wrote: »

Bit disapointed with the replies. Maybe i should word the question different.

What was the answer you were looking for?

Assume that religion and churches will be around for ever. What do you the non-religious type in the neighbourhood think the church should do?

Are you talking about the actual building itself? If so, it's none of my business what happens to it. I have nothing to do with the local church and never will.

If you are talking about the church as a community of like minded people the answer is very different. I think it should stop recruiting minors, and withdraw immediately from administration in local education and health organisations.

ColmDawson

This is a good one, especially the final three verses.

Philip Larkin wrote:

Church Going

Once I am sure there's nothing going on
I step inside, letting the door thud shut.
Another church: matting, seats, and stone,
And little books; sprawlings of flowers, cut
For Sunday, brownish now; some brass and stuff
Up at the holy end; the small neat organ;
And a tense, musty, unignorable silence,
Brewed God knows how long. Hatless, I take off
My cycle-clips in awkward reverence,

Move forward, run my hand around the font.
From where I stand, the roof looks almost new-
Cleaned or restored? Someone would know: I don't.
Mounting the lectern, I peruse a few
Hectoring large-scale verses, and pronounce
'Here endeth' much more loudly than I'd meant.
The echoes snigger briefly. Back at the door
I sign the book, donate an Irish sixpence,
Reflect the place was not worth stopping for.

Yet stop I did: in fact I often do,
And always end much at a loss like this,
Wondering what to look for; wondering, too,
When churches fall completely out of use
What we shall turn them into, if we shall keep
A few cathedrals chronically on show,
Their parchment, plate, and pyx in locked cases,
And let the rest rent-free to rain and sheep.
Shall we avoid them as unlucky places?

Or, after dark, will dubious women come
To make their children touch a particular stone;
Pick simples for a cancer; or on some
Advised night see walking a dead one?
Power of some sort or other will go on
In games, in riddles, seemingly at random;
But superstition, like belief, must die,
And what remains when disbelief has gone?
Grass, weedy pavement, brambles, buttress, sky,

A shape less recognizable each week,
A purpose more obscure. I wonder who
Will be the last, the very last, to seek
This place for what it was; one of the crew
That tap and jot and know what rood-lofts were?
Some ruin-bibber, randy for antique,
Or Christmas-addict, counting on a whiff
Of gown-and-bands and organ-pipes and myrrh?
Or will he be my representative,

Bored, uninformed, knowing the ghostly silt
Dispersed, yet tending to this cross of ground
Through suburb scrub because it held unspilt
So long and equably what since is found
Only in separation - marriage, and birth,
And death, and thoughts of these - for whom was built
This special shell? For, though I've no idea
What this accoutred frowsty barn is worth,
It pleases me to stand in silence here;

A serious house on serious earth it is,
In whose blent air all our compulsions meet,
Are recognised, and robed as destinies.
And that much never can be obsolete,
Since someone will forever be surprising
A hunger in himself to be more serious,
And gravitating with it to this ground,
Which, he once heard, was proper to grow wise in,
If only that so many dead lie round.

Dades

Ismhunter wrote: »

Bit disapointed with the replies.

Bit disappointed with the question.

Ismhunter wrote: »

... what if any role the local church should have in the community.

Ismhunter wrote: »

...What do you the non-religious type in the neighbourhood think the church should do?

I honestly have no idea what answers you are looking for. The consensus seems to be "look after their own but mind their own business".

Clearly you anticipated some other response and I'd love to know what that was!

Malari

The only good use I've ever found for a church in my life:

The local church has invited David Norris to speak there in a few weeks and I'll be going

Zillah

I am not joking in the slightest when I say I would love to see every single church and cathedral in the country turned into; art galleries, theatres, nightclubs, concert halls etc.

Zillah

Er, wait, no sorry.

I think the Church should be the moral heart of the community. Married couples should consult their priests for advice on sexual matters and troubled young men should receive one on one tutoring. Teachers should be secondary to the clergy in schools, which, needless to say, should also be administered by the Church. Frankly we've been paying too much attention to educating children in a materialistic mindset, rather than ensuring their correct theological education.

Zillah

Changed my mind again, this is my real and final answer:

Get out of civilisation you lunatics, you're not welcome any more.

rational

mikhail wrote: »

Facilitate the religious practice of those who believe. Leave the rest of us the hell alone.

Yea im sick of the local clergy badgering and hounding our atheists.

rational

ColmDawson wrote: »

This is a good one, especially the final three verses.

Beautiful poem alright. Great response to question posed, well done.

It pleases me to stand in silence here;

Hedging his bets I think.

But the more I read this poem the more of a sense of the divine I get. And the more you read it the more you realise it argument for theism rather than against.

mikhail

rational wrote: »

Yea im sick of the local clergy badgering and hounding our atheists.

You mean like the parish priest who sits on the board of the only primary school for five miles and defends the school's right to religious discrimination?

rational

mikhail wrote: »

You mean like the parish priest who sits on the board of the only primary school for five miles and defends the school's right to religious discrimination?

Yea that what i mean.

ColmDawson

rational wrote: »

Beautiful poem alright. Great response to question posed, well done.



Hedging his bets I think.

But the more I read this poem the more of a sense of the divine I get. And the more you read it the more you realise it argument for theism rather than against.

Really? I don't see how it's an argument for theism. When he talks about "our compulsions ... robed as destinies" it seems pretty clear to me that he's recognising the fact that religion is simply our primitive fears and reactions to the world, dressed up as divine in order to make it seem less scary to us.

Ismhunter

Dades wrote: »

Bit disappointed with the question.



I honestly have no idea what answers you are looking for. The consensus seems to be "look after their own but mind their own business".

Clearly you anticipated some other response and I'd love to know what that was!

Well i assumed that there would be recognition of the social good they do! Surely evangelism and apologetics are a small price to pay for this?? I mean my own church provides (often for free!) mom's n tots groups, community fairs, dance classes, marriage counselling.
I'm not catholic myself but anyone working in the social sector will tell you that that church are still big players with countless charities that do work.

goose2005

Ismhunter wrote: »

Bit disapointed with the replies. Maybe i should word the question different.
Assume that religion and churches will be around for ever. What do you the non-religious type in the neighbourhood think the church should do?

Sell the church and the land it's on, and give the money to abuse victims. Hold masses in your homes like the early church did.

fatmammycat

Ismhunter wrote: »

Well i assumed that there would be recognition of the social good they do! Surely evangelism and apologetics are a small price to pay for this?? I mean my own church provides (often for free!) mom's n tots groups, community fairs, dance classes, marriage counselling.
I'm not catholic myself but anyone working in the social sector will tell you that that church are still big players with countless charities that do work.

So? I'm atheist and I'm a member of many a charity and raise a fair chunk of change for a lot of causes- usually through physical means. What's your point? You don't need to be a part of a 'church' to attend to those who need your help.

magicbastarder

sonicthebadger* wrote: »

This is a really great question and I thought I would have answers, but I don't. I realised it boils down to the fact that no matter what role I can conceive of for my local PP he represents nobody.

given that the OP did not seem to exclude religious duties, the PP has a big role to play for those people who choose to use his services. if he is able to provide support in the cases of bereavement, or support for elderly parishioners, there's plenty of room for that in a secular society (i.e. one which does not favour one religion over another).
suggesting the priest has no role or no benefit is extremely short-sighted.

magicbastarder

fatmammycat wrote: »

So? I'm atheist and I'm a member of many a charity and raise a fair chunk of change for a lot of causes- usually through physical means. What's your point? You don't need to be a part of a 'church' to attend to those who need your help.

he (or she) never said you had to be. the fact is, they do it.

johnmcdnl

in fairness a lot of the PPs of the country visit the elderly and if nothing else this is something that the elderly might look forward too especially if they're living on their own and don't have many visitors...

after that.....

yeah.....

em...

they ask for donations??? can't really think of much else they contribute to the local area that isn't done by someone else already

robindch

Ismhunter wrote: »

I mean my own church provides (often for free!) mom's n tots group [...]

My other half did some contract work in an evangelical church-owned tots group in the city center a few years back, but left shortly afterwards, when she figured out that rote-singing "God is good; Satan's bad" and keeping an eye out for returning parents was higher up the list of priorities than changing babies nappies or interacting with the little dears.

Undergod

My local priest is a nice guy. There are a lot of great community projects centred around the church and the parish centre. Churches can do a lot of good.

ShooterSF

Ismhunter wrote: »

Well i assumed that there would be recognition of the social good they do! Surely evangelism and apologetics are a small price to pay for this?? I mean my own church provides (often for free!) mom's n tots groups, community fairs, dance classes, marriage counselling.
I'm not catholic myself but anyone working in the social sector will tell you that that church are still big players with countless charities that do work.

Secular marriage counselling? Or does god come into it? People have already said they should look after their own so unless it has a use to non-catholics then that fits the description.

As for dance classes, the last person I want teaching me to dance is a member of the clergy

Ismhunter

ShooterSF wrote: »

As for dance classes, the last person I want teaching me to dance is a member of the clergy

I'm betting Jesus could cut up a rug when it came to tunes!;)