Irish Defense Forces DPM....

tonyj_mc

Before anyone say, yes i know it againest the law. One of my team mates had a run in at a site over the past few weeks with a lad wearing Irish DPM. No bif deal he didn't know, but on two seperate sites today we had the same issue, two sets of Irish DPM has anyone else seen an increase in this recently.

Really think it needs to highlighted and stamped out, as its illegal to wear under civilian as well as military law

Defense Act 1954
Defence Act, 1954Unlawful wearing of uniform.264
(1) If any person (not being a member of the Defence Forces) wears, without permission granted by or on behalf of the Minister, any uniform of the Defence Forces or any colourable imitation thereof, such person shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding ten pounds or, at the discretion of the court, to imprisonment for any term not exceeding three months.




(2) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply in respect of the wearing of any uniform of the Defence Forces or any colourable imitation thereof in the course of a stage play or other dramatic representation or performance.



(3) In this section the word "uniform" includes any distinctive part of a uniform.

Source: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1954/en/act/pub/0018/sec0264.html#zza18y1954s264

Witcher

It needs to be highlighted among soldiers themselves because there's only one way to get it and that is from a serving soldier, they're either selling it on or loaning it out, nothing against serving men and women but that's the only way it could be happening as it's a restricted pattern.

Have seen a lot of British people over on Arnies showing off Irish DPM they've bought online and in person from over here, uniforms and vests etc.

whydave

Sorry Lads ,
Irish DPM has been sold in a well known surplus store in Dublin !
The PDF and others were advised.
Items were bought in good faith.

J.D.R

Blay wrote: »

It needs to be highlighted among soldiers themselves because there's only one way to get it and that is from a serving soldier, they're either selling it on or loaning it out, nothing against serving men and women but that's the only way it could be happening as it's a restricted pattern.

Have to disagree with you there. At every skirmish I have been to where someone is wearing Irish DPM it has never, not once, been worn by a member of the defence forces, and 9 times out of 10, it is a member of the defence forces who goes to the person wearing it to inform them of the illegality.

tonyj_mc

i know i've seen at ebay under paddyflague but the issue is not where they got it from don't really care to be honest, its just annoying when site owners turn a blind eye to illegal activity on their sites.

Just surmising here but if a blindeye is being turned to tis, what eles is a blind eye being turned to?

irrespective of "ah sure its only a set of comabts" its still illegal to wear it outside of official military business - sounds very sinister but you know what i mean.


Edit: take for example someone chrono's at 335 FPS are they allowed to play - i hope not as it above one joule and therefore illegal

Inari

It is a very good point...it is illegal. People aren't allowed play with hot airsoft guns. Surely it wouldn't be much to check someones cammo at the crono station?

@Blay: I thought restricted patterns were only domestic i.e. it's alright for us here in Ireland to wear current issue cammo of other nations, although in those nations the cammo is not allowed be worn. I remember reading that here on boards, so I'm not certain...perhaps someone could clarify?

Stonewolf

It's never sold officially and remains the property of the Minister of Defense.

Airsoft Reloded

"(2) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply in respect of the wearing of any uniform of the Defence Forces or any colourable imitation thereof in the course of a stage play or other dramatic representation or performance."

Does that cover us?

swiftblade

AFAIK Germany has the same policy with their Flecktarn. Atl east that's what i was told over there.

swiftblade

Airsoft Reloded wrote: »

"(2) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply in respect of the wearing of any uniform of the Defence Forces or any colourable imitation thereof in the course of a stage play or other dramatic representation or performance."

Does that cover us?

The problem is the actual uniform reamains property of the Defensive Forces. So generally it's seen as stolen property

thermo

Airsoft Reloded wrote: »

Does that cover us?

no I'm afraid not!:D

andy_g

Ill leave this open for the moment as its remaining civil.
But i will remind people of the irish dpm section of the charter.

DO NOT DISCUSS ANYTHING ILLEGAL. (If you are unsure about legality, PM a mod)
- The wearing of Irish DPM pattern gear while not on duty, or any other clothing and equipment issued by the Irish Defence Forces is illegal under the Defence Act 1954 and it's subsequent amendments

ED E

Did begadi not get a licence to reproduce it?

andy_g

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

Did begadi not get a licence to reproduce it?

closest i have seen from begadi is French c.c.e pattern not Irish

elDiablo79

why does this piss so many people off? were not the police or military police. if people get caught wearing it by police or mps then they'll get into trouble we as players are not the law and cant enforce it. airsoft has bigger problems in my opinion than some lads wearing irish DPMs. if someone had a go at me for wearing Irsh dpms when i was just tryin to enjoy my day playing a game i love id tell them where to go and sh*te.

ps i wear all types of camo and PMC wear. and think irish DPM is crap looking thats why i wont wear it.

Tommyboy71

The whole point in caring whether people wear it is that we as a community can demonstrate a willingness to police ourselves and keep the sport on the straight and narrow.

Puding

the problem with that is it gives use a heap of bad press, remember when pictures of guys in Irish dpm got post in take aim or something and the some members of the defense force got hold of it, caused the IAA no end of trouble

is its a dinosaur of a law but im afraid its still a law, and the last thing airsoft needs is to actually give the opposition ammunition at any stage

the community has to be self regulating and self enforcing to have any standing with authoritys

Witcher

J.D.R wrote: »

Have to disagree with you there. At every skirmish I have been to where someone is wearing Irish DPM it has never, not once, been worn by a member of the defence forces,

I never said Defence Forces members wear it to a skirmish I said they must loan it or sell it on because they're the only ones who get it. It's only made for the government to issue to the Defence Forces so when it turns up worn by civilians it's coming from someone who was issued it.

andy_g

elDiablo79 wrote: »

why does this piss so many people off? were not the police or military police. if people get caught wearing it by police or mps then they'll get into trouble we as players are not the law and cant enforce it. airsoft has bigger problems in my opinion than some lads wearing irish DPMs.

ps i wear all types of camo and PMC wear. and think irish DPM is crap looking thats why i wont wear it.

Technically we cant your right but tbh on a site as players we should be able to. The law is the law.

It brings the name of players down and being honest the sites should enforce it.
Remember when you game at a site you play at regularly its your site as much as anyone else.
Stand up for what you believe in you hobby/sport and protect it.

I wear French c.c.e and get asked all the time is it Irish I know that it can be annoying for everyone to ask you the same question but to be fair its not endangering our hobby/sport.

J.D.R

Blay wrote: »

I never said Defence Forces members wear it to a skirmish I said they must loan it or sell it on because they're the only ones who get it. It's only made for the government to issue to the Defence Forces so when it turns up word by civilians it's coming from somewhere.

True, but I have heard of several shops (airsoft and otherwise) selling Irish DPM to civilians.

But, what I tried to say, is that it is usually the members of the defence forces who take greatest offence to it being worn by airsofters.

andy_g wrote: »

Technically we cant your right but tbh on a site as players we should be able to. The law is the law.

Just wondering, can a site enforce this rule? I have been to 3 seperate sites on several occaisions that I can remember where irish DPM has been worn and they have not done anything. Wether this is because they didn't notice, didn't care, or had no power I am not sure.

andy_g

J.D.R wrote: »

True, but I have heard of several shops (airsoft and otherwise) selling Irish DPM to civilians.

But, what I tried to say, is that it is usually the members of the defence forces who take greatest offence to it being worn by airsofters.



Just wondering, can a site enforce this rule? I have been to 3 seperate sites on several occaisions that I can remember where irish DPM has been worn and they have not done anything. Wether this is because they didn't notice, didn't care, or had no power I am not sure.

Again I dont speak for a site. But sites can enforce a no play policy on a player wearing current issue uniforms that the offender would be breaking the law.
In other countries if a player is allowed to play on a site using a uniform that is current/controlled/illegal the site runs a risk of being shut down.
I think if that was to happen here sites would be very cautious about allowing people to play using an issue/stolen uniform.

And thats what it is if you have one or were given a uniform from a serving member of the defence forces.

deco nate

every site has power/duty of care,every site can say no you
are not playin here in runners....with that hot gun(yet to see a hot gun)so yes every site can say you
are not playin in that camo.it just needs to be enforced on
sites,yet to see a site that lets this happen.thank god,maybe ive just
been lucky

edit : andy beat me to it

joe stodge

with the avalibilty of camo and the amount of it out there i can't see any reason for someone to wear irish dpm's.

i would say it to someone i seen wearing at a site, it doesnt take much for our sport to be discredited or defaced in the media and this would be just giving them something else to give out about.

george443

ok guys, someone said earlier that the gardai and mp's arnt doing anything bout this. im a currently serving mp and i have on numerous ocassions approached ppl about this subject and informed them of the laws on the issue and i have at all times been recived by these ppl with the upmost respect and a general intrest in why its not allowed. my idea in this is not to rob ppl of their days airsofting and in general it is non PDF personelle that are wearing it and any time i meet these ppl after they wiil not be wearing it. yes it is a draged out subject on boards but as most airsofters actually read these threads they will all be aware of it. it dose not make me happy to have to talk to these ppl but it is part of my job so i will do it and i always talk to these ppl with respect. hope this helps

deco nate

em,ok...thanks...em

TheDoc

I see it at most sites, most times I'm out.

Doesn't particularly bother me, its not my place to get involved, thats a marshall or site owners job.

and the stuff sticks out an absolute mile, there is no excuse for a marshall not pulling someone up on it, except wanting to avoida row.

Because generally most people who wear irish dpm on sites tend to end up howing a row about it.

andy_g

Another thing is you as players choose if you want to play with someone wearing Irish dpm. So if the site wont enforce it theres other ways to.

One dont play at that site or two dont game with the said person as a group they will learn fast enough not to wear it.

Irish dpm is available illegally across the border shops there got it is anyones guess does it still make it legal............?

Em...... nope.

r0n0c

serving member of the D.F and it p***es me off no end to see people trying to play in the uniform, had R.D.F members on site a few weeks ago in full uniform, were politely told that its against standing orders, its against the law and its against site policy. I dont understand why airsofters will obey one law and try and flaunt another. this sport gets enough bad press in the military and from the Gardai in normal circumstances why draw the spotlight onto ourselves?

george443

i agree, personally i wont play on sites were its been used as it just ruins my day. but yeah i agree, let thes ppl know its unaceptable and with any luck it will stop

SniperSight

r0n0c wrote: »

serving member of the D.F and it p***es me off no end to see people trying to play in the uniform, had R.D.F members on site a few weeks ago in full uniform, were politely told that its against standing orders, its against the law and its against site policy. I dont understand why airsofters will obey one law and try and flaunt another. this sport gets enough bad press in the military and from the Gardai in normal circumstances why draw the spotlight onto ourselves?

I fully agree that people shouldn't wear DPM, only because its against the law. If it wasn't I'd skirmish in my own set.
My question is this...
Why does it p**s you off so much. Is it simply becuase of the law or do you find it disrespectful toward serving members?

george443

SniperSight wrote: »

I fully agree that people shouldn't wear DPM, only because its against the law. If it wasn't I'd skirmish in my own set.
My question is this...
Why does it p**s you off so much. Is it simply becuase of the law or do you find it disrespectful toward serving members?

its both, as serving members we respect our uniform and all the laws that comes with it.

also we respect our sport and dont want to see ppl disrespecting the uniform or by proxy us, by wearing it during games

andy_g

I know a few members serving and some that are out. Some of them see it as being direspectful and others see it from the law side.

Personally i see it as the law and disrespectful as even you wearing it practiacally falls under impersonating a member of the Defence Forces.

SniperSight

Ok, well then my second question is,
Do you not wear any armed forces clothing when you play?

andy_g

SniperSight wrote: »

Ok, well then my second question is,
Do you not wear any armed forces clothing when you play?

How is that really relevant its not Irish Dpm that you would be wearing at a skirmish therfor=legal

george443

SniperSight wrote: »

Ok, well then my second question is,
Do you not wear any armed forces clothing when you play?

yes marpat, but due to us law it is legal to sell surplus amounts and it is not illegal to reproduce it. if i was playing in the states and it was offensive i wouldnt wear i t .

SniperSight

andy_g wrote: »

How is that really relevant its not Irish Dpm that you would be wearing at a skirmish therfor=legal

Well obviously I know other gear is legal, and I made it clear I'm against wearing Irish dpm.
My point is, I find it hypocritical that some wouldthink of it as disrespectful, yet fiind it acceptable to wear some other uniform.

george443

SniperSight wrote: »

Well obviously I know other gear is legal, and I made it clear I'm against wearing Irish dpm.
My point is, I find it hypocritical that some wouldthink of it as disrespectful, yet fiind it acceptable to wear some other uniform.

its not hypocritical. im wearing combats that have no legal ranifications. if i was aproached by someone who found it that way and asked to not wear it i wud stop.

andy_g

I see where your coming from.

But then that another topic in itself, its almost like saying "oh he use's an ak47 so he must support terrorist's"

SniperSight

george443 wrote: »

yes marpat, but due to us law it is legal to sell surplus amounts and it is not illegal to reproduce it. if i was playing in the states and it was offensive i wouldnt wear i t .

Why is that not disrespectful to the real soldiers who wear marpat?

SniperSight

andy_g wrote: »

I see where your coming from.

But then that another topic in itself, its almost like saying "oh he use's an ak47 so he must support terrorist's"

I understand that, just want get peoples views on it.

george443

SniperSight wrote: »

Why is not disrespectful to the real soldiers who wear marpat?[/

i never said it wasnt. i do not imitate a look or a soldier of the states. i wear a number of camoflage patterns for the purpose of camoflage and the fact that they are hard wearing and built to be thrown about a field. as i said if a us marine told me he found it disrespictful id bin my marpat

NakedDex

Here's the situation: it's enshrined in law. This is one of those few beautiful black-and-white, crystal clear scenarios. If you have some, you have either gotten it by legitimate (issued) means, or illegitimate (purchased) means.
If the former, you'll know when and where you can use it, and the consequences of abuse of the privilege.
If the latter, well, you clearly were not supposed to have them in the first place.

There are no special cases. Improper use is illegal.

SniperSight

george443 wrote: »

SniperSight wrote: »

Why is not disrespectful to the real soldiers who wear marpat?[/

i never said it wasnt. i do not imitate a look or a soldier of the states. i wear a number of camoflage patterns for the purpose of camoflage and the fact that they are hard wearing and built to be thrown about a field. as i said if a us marine told me he found it disrespictful id bin my marpat

Fair enough so, just wanted the point to be made.

george443

NakedDex wrote: »

Here's the situation: it's enshrined in law. This is one of those few beautiful black-and-white, crystal clear scenarios. If you have some, you have either gotten it by legitimate (issued) means, or illegitimate (purchased) means.
If the former, you'll know when and where you can use it, and the consequences of abuse of the privilege.
If the latter, well, you clearly were not supposed to have them in the first place.

There are no special cases. Improper use is illegal.

i agree fully, the problem is that it is still been used and i think that we as a sport and a community all have a part to play in it been stamped out

Gatling

Right i dont care where you bought ,or who gave it to you or you dont care

Wearing of Irish Dpm is illegal dont care what your arguement are its illegal either way ,
Site owners ,not marshals are responsible for the runnning of sites, any site that openly flaunts the wearing of Irish DPM doesnt deserve to be allowed to operate ,makes you wonder if they allow anything else illegal
i for one am fed up with people coming on here with ohh its a stupid law oh there's peace up north ,oh ,oh

This is our community as pointed out by Tommyboy its our responsibility to police our community ,

The majority of our site owners run great sites ive nothing but praise for our sites ,and players
but there is some who think anything goes on there site, its all about money ,

if anybody see dpm being worn ,sold or promoted for use on a site
please email- info@irishairsoft.ie with the details

Lemming

NakedDex wrote: »

Here's the situation: it's enshrined in law. This is one of those few beautiful black-and-white, crystal clear scenarios. If you have some, you have either gotten it by legitimate (issued) means, or illegitimate (purchased) means.

This is a subject that has crossed my path when I was airsoft adverts moderator - regarding people looking to trade in Irish DPM kit. Such so that we added a section to the charter that provides a fairly clear list of what is definitively banned.

Airsoft Adverts Charter wrote:

5. Irish DPM articles
The following criteria must be strictly adhered to if one wishes to sell or trade Irish DPM articles.

* Anything that has been issued is absolutely forbidden for sale/trade/etc.
* You must be able to cite your source. If you can't, you don't post.
* If you are selling on second-hand kit, you must be able to cite your source. If you are unsure as to where that came from, you don't post.
* If you are found to be presenting articles for sale in a false manner (i.e. selling issue kit whilst claiming it's been purchased retail), you will receive an automatic permanent ban. You may or may not have your details forwarded on to the relevant authorities also.
* Items that are definitvely banned include, but are not limited to; BDUs (i.e. shirts/trousers), Smocks, Parkas, Rain-gear, Sleeping systems (Basha/Bivvy bag/Sleeping bag) or parts thereof.

For those making excuses by saying that "well known" surplus shops in Dublin are selling Irish DPM gear. Yes they are; none of it fits the above list I've highlighted in bold. You can pick up bergens, daysacks, and webbing pouches; none of which is illegal last time I checked, and indeed as I understand it, license has been selectively granted to reproduce (e.g. protac have a license to manufacture I believe). So trying to paw off that excuse for people wearing Irish DPM clothing is dishonest.

Further, some sites have already been approached in the past by the Army over this issue if I have heard correctly. So anyone doggedly insisting on wearing the stuff is just being willfully foolish.

Stealthirl

i think a bit of it is people not knowing
1) what irish dpm looks like
2) not knowing its illegal

i have some brit dpm but also have some close to irish dpm combats i got years ago in the uk

andy_g

Lemming. Your correct last i heard protact has licence to produce certain products in a similiar pattern to Irish camo.

However there is slight variations to the pattern and colour that you will only notice when you have the genuine equipment beside it.

Also the other shop in Dublin as far as i know have no licence to issue any of the goods in Irish camo.

tonyj_mc

<snip>

i know i'll be voting with my feet,

althought saying that, given its illegal i shouldn't have to boycott sites to get them to uphold the law :mad:

deceit

I know this is a little bit off topic but i'm an ex british soldier and as you leave you get to keep some of your gear, shirts/trousers etc, would the rule in the uk be the same as here in that I couldnt wear any of that if I go to the uk to skirmish?

evilrobotshane

It's not the case in the UK. The only countries I know of with that type of rule are Ireland and Denmark; and Germany if what somebody said on this thread is true.