mosin nagant - pierced primer

firefly08

I am not having much luck with firearms

I have a Finnish MN M39 and the other day it pierced a primer, and the cocking piece flew back and bit my thumb. I got a face full of nasty smoke, but no injury.

I checked the pin protrusion with the gauge - it's fine. The pin is not damaged either.

It was Przi Partizan factory ammo (not cheap stuff)

I've shot a few hundred mil surp rounds through this rifle with no problems, and I had just started using the factory stuff when this happened (5th round I think)

The rifle has never been headspaced. I plan on buying the headspace gauge.

So, opinions: if the rifle passes a headspace check - would you fire it again? Is it risky?

tac foley

We've had a few pierced primers on PPU ammunition over here, from 7.92x57 to .303Brit.

If your gauge is shows a good result, try another lot # of the same make of stuff.

Today we had three pierced primers from Remington 55gr .223 - in three different guns but all the same ammunition lot numbers from the same dealer [we buy in bulk for probies].

You are lucky you were shooting an M/39 model.

tac

firefly08

You are lucky you were shooting an M/39 model.

Why is that? Does it have some protective feature in the event of a rupture?

meathstevie

Probably not intended but it most likely dates back to the times when they made them strong and sturdy and steel was steel.

FISMA

meathstevie wrote: »

Probably not intended but it most likely dates back to the times when they made them strong and sturdy and steel was steel.

Hmmm. I always felt that the WWII surplus Nagants were deficient in their bolt design. Compared to Mausers, Enfields, Springfields, and others, there was no room for error. If I had to bet on a bolt getting thrown back, it would be the Nagant.

Nowadays, I just do not shoot any western bloc ammo. Not Wolf, Brown Bear, Przi Partizan, S&B, Tula, and all. Instead, I shoot something from the EU or USA. Take it for what it's worth. Do your own research, shoot whatever pleases you: it's your face behind the slide/bolt/action.

Hopefully, you were wearing a nice pair of glasses. This is one reason why I wear my M-Frames all the time.

If you were lucky about anything having to do with a Nagant is that yours was Finish.

Do yourself a favor and have an expert check this Nagant out. Head-spacing is critical. I would bet that your headspacing is off a bit, on the large side.

Is the bolt the same serial number as the rifle? If it is a mismatched, I would again be concerned.

firefly08

The ammo I've been using up til now was Bulgarian surplus from the 80s, and although I had one slightly cracked case from it, I put that down to the brittleness of the steel (on the advice of a few more knowledgeable friends and the local gunsmith). Other than that I've had no trouble from that ammo.

Although the rifle is dated 1942, the receiver (and I presume the bolt) are actually much older, from the 1890s in fact. It's a hex shaped receiver from the Ishevsk arsenal iirc. So it's a Finnish rifle, but the receiver is Russian (as are all the Finnish Mosin Nagant receivers).

The serial numbers on the receiver, bolt and mag floor plate all match

I took the rifle to the gunsmith when I first got it, and he looked it over, but he didn't have a 7.62x54 headspace gauge. Nevertheless, he told me it looked OK and that these rifles were generally OK anyway.

I had a couple of cracked Wolf steel cases, again, minor cracks on the neck of the cartridge - I went back and showed him all these cracked cases, and he still reckoned it was OK, and said it's typical with steel cased ammo.

So since then I've been blasting away with the Bulgarian stuff, checking almost every case I fire for stretching/cracks etc - but they've all been perfect.....then this with the factory stuff.

Actually I had a good look at the remaining rounds in the box and tbh, they don't look new. The brass is quite clearly marked and scratched, so I'm guessing this stuff is reloaded.

FISMA

FireFly,
I have handled a few Nagants in my time. I remember how easy it was to drop the bolt. Personally, I just did not like the design. I would have preferred a bit more to it like the Enfields and the Mausers.

How much is a headspacing gauge for that model? Can you get one yourself?

I would be incredibly concerned with the headspacing. This is an area where really bad things can happen unless an expert checks things out.

Cracking cases doesn't concern me as much, especially if dealing with reloads. I have cousins that reload elsewhere and they have shot the same brass more than five, six, or seven times. Eventually, it's going to crack.

Again, ensure you have some safety for your eyes. I swear by the below. It's the one set of shades for everything I do: fish, shoot, and cycle.

Of course I mean fish, shoot, and cycle separately. It is not my idea of a triathlon, yet.

Some nice pages for you
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinDisassembly.htm
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinLinks.htm

firefly08

Yep I plan on getting the gauge, they're about $30 and there's one available that works without having to remove the extractor.

I never ever shoot without eye protection but I just wear cheap Walmart safety glasses, nothing fancy (I think they're branded as Winchester but I wouldn't imagine that counts for much).

Is that a bad idea? Is there much of a difference with more expensive ones? It's not something I want to skimp on but I assumed they were all made of the same stuff anyway.

FISMA

Probably most important to get something over your eyes than anything else.

I have heard lots of stories about shotgun blasts at 15ya being stopped by Oakleys. However, I have no independent lab tests to make a definitive statement.

One of my main concerns is when you wear the glasses for hours. It is not uncommon for me to wear my Sunglasses for five hours or more. When you wear sunglasses for this length of time, you do not want lenses that are inconsistent.

An extreme example is those cheap sunglasses that kids have - the ones with lenses so warped it looks as if you are in the funhouse at the circus.

Over a decade ago I noticed that after cycling for long distances, being on the bike for 5+ hours, my eyes were getting tired. At that time I was using Foakleys (Fake A$$ Oakleys) as I did not think Oakleys were worth the cost.

At first I was unsure what the cause of the fatigue was, especially since being on the bike for 100 or more miles caused fatigue everywhere else. One day I took the glasses off and the symptoms improved during the ride.

The next day I bought a pair of Oakleys and I swear by them ever since. In fact, when I take of either my yellow or polarized lenses, the world looks hazy and blue/grey.

If you are only wearing them for short periods of time, probably no big deal. Try a pair on and see if you can see the frame. Don't worry too much about seeing the top of the frame, more so the sides and the bottom. I like the lens to be as big as possible - like the M-Frame Heaters. I want as much peripheral vision as possible.

They're really not too expensive when you see some of the other manufacturers out there. Here's a pair starting at $120.

tac foley

FISMA wrote: »

Nowadays, I just do not shoot any western bloc ammo. Not Wolf, Brown Bear, Przi Partizan, S&B, Tula, and all. Instead, I shoot something from the EU or USA.

'western bloc' - What exactly does that mean to you?

Wolf is Russian. Not Western Bloc.

Brown Bear is Russian. Not Western Bloc.

Prvi Partisan is Serbian - recently joined the EU. Formerly Yugoslavina, not Western Bloc.

Tula is Russian. Not Western Bloc.

Sellier & Bellot, founded in 1823, has had an ISO 9001 certificate since 1998, is made in the Czech Republic [part of the EU], is well-respected all over the world, and Olympic shooters use it, so it is plainly sh*te.

Right.

tac

tac foley

FISMA wrote: »

Probably most important to get something over your eyes than anything else.

They're really not too expensive when you see some of the other manufacturers out there. Here's a pair starting at $120.

There isn't enough money in the world to buy you a working, honest-to-goodness eyeball.

Think about spending as much as you can possibly afford, and then add $50.

A fellow-shooter was blinded in his left eye by a 9mm cartridge case that acted just like a cookie-cutter.

He was also left-handed and left-eyed and an orthopedic surgeon.

Once.

tac

tac foley

firefly08 wrote: »

Why is that? Does it have some protective feature in the event of a rupture?

It is generally agreed among the hundreds of thousands of fans on the M-N, as well as collectors and writers that the Finnish M-N's were the best ever made. PM me with the serial number of your m/39 and I can tell you where and when it was made.

Having said that, there is little to protect you against the occasional round of sh*te ammunition except the integrity of the firearm shooting it, and a good pair of shooting eye-glasses.

In my own second-hand experience, from shooting at least four times a week in a club with almost 250 shooters - many with ex-military arms, I have to say that a lot of PPU ammunition shows a clear lack of QC that is vital in such an important item.

tac

Croppy Boy

tac foley wrote: »

Prvi Partisan is Serbian - recently joined the EU. Formerly Yugoslavina, not Western Bloc.

Slovenia is the only part of the former Yugoslavia now a member of the EU. The rest are still hanging there.

tac foley

Croppy Boy wrote: »

Slovenia is the only part of the former Yugoslavia now a member of the EU. The rest are still hanging there.

sigh, thanks for the correction, My Serbian next-door neighbour [lying b*gger] owes me a pint alright. And him a priest, too.

tac

firefly08

OK, update:

So I got a full set of headspace gauges and tested the rifle today. It passed the Go test, passed the No-go test, and for the sake of sanity, to make sure I wasn't doing it wrong, I gave it the Field test too, which is passed as expected. (By 'passed' I mean bolt closed with ease on the Go, but would not close on either No-go or Field)

So, headspace is good. From my earlier test (after the pierced primer), firing pin protrusion is good. The rifle was previously looked over by a gun smith, he reckoned it was fine. Bolt & receiver are matched. And now I have good reason to be suspicious of the ammunition that had the pierced primer (from Tac's advice and the appearance of the brass on this Prvi stuff, which looks quite used).

So where do I go from here? Under the above circumstances, would you shoot the rifle again, with ammunition that has given no trouble so far (my Bulgarian surplus ammo for example)?

Thomasofmel

firefly08 wrote: »

I have a Finnish MN M39

I used that same rifle as a sniper in Finnish army mid 80's. Great rifle - we used to target practice @ 300m with them - earned my sniper medal with it :rolleyes:

tac foley

firefly08 wrote: »

OK, update:

So I got a full set of headspace gauges and tested the rifle today. It passed the Go test, passed the No-go test, and for the sake of sanity, to make sure I wasn't doing it wrong, I gave it the Field test too, which is passed as expected. (By 'passed' I mean bolt closed with ease on the Go, but would not close on either No-go or Field)

So, headspace is good. From my earlier test (after the pierced primer), firing pin protrusion is good. The rifle was previously looked over by a gun smith, he reckoned it was fine. Bolt & receiver are matched. And now I have good reason to be suspicious of the ammunition that had the pierced primer (from Tac's advice and the appearance of the brass on this Prvi stuff, which looks quite used).

So where do I go from here? Under the above circumstances, would you shoot the rifle again, with ammunition that has given no trouble so far (my Bulgarian surplus ammo for example)?

If the gauges show good, and the firing pin protrusion is within limits, then you just have to be looking at crappy ammunition.

Prvi Partizan ammunition uses NEW brass, as a check with their factory rep here in UK has shown us, so apart from an obvious breakdown in QC I can't think why your stuff should look 'quite used'.

I would take back all the unfired ammunition to the dealer, and ask for a refund. Shooting the Bulgarian stuff seems to work, as most of us over here shoot it, too.

tac

firefly08

Cheers for all the advice.

I meant to do this earlier but only got round to it now: pics of the suspect ammo. Maybe you can tell if this is reloaded ammo?

First, here's the damaged primer:


Here's an unfired round from the box - see the marks between 1 and 2 o clock - is that normal? I haven't seen it on most of the other ammo I've bought. All these Prvi rounds have this kind of minor damage.


And here you can see a lot of scratches. This ammo came with all the each round in a separate cardboard partition inside the box, so it didn't happen once they were boxed:


Here's a brand new factory round I used for comparison - nice and clean, no scatches:

tac foley

Take the Prvi stuff back to the dealer - show him the pierced primer, and tell him you don't trust the ammunition not to blow up your gun.

It does NOT look like reloaded ammunition.

The scratches are quite normal for PPU ammunition - it's not Lapua or Norma - and it happens as the bullet is set into the case from a dirty bullet seating die.

As for the rather odd marks on the head of the case, I do not like that. Just one more reason the give it back to the dealer. If he is a decent guy, he'll do the right thing. If not, then go somewhere else.

BTW, I know how Prvi Partizan ammunition is packed - yours is no different to the many thousands of rounds of .303 and other stuff I see all year round at our club.

I'm sending the pic of the pierced primer to a few friends over here for their comment - I'll post their replies.

tac

EDIT - so far three responders have said 'soft primers' and agreed with me about the rest of my comments.