Should self employed people be able to get the dole?

WildBoots · 09-10-2010 3:02pm #1

It seems unfair to me that many self employed people who have paid their taxes are unable to receive social welfare payments. I know a good few previously self employed people who are finding it hard to put food on the table, surely they deserve some help?

orourkeda · 09-10-2010 3:03pm

Why are they not entitled to it?

What's the reason behind it?

Bazzy · 09-10-2010 3:03pm

yes but they claim everthing as an expense and off set it against the tax they pay at the end of the ear so the government get you one way or another !!!

mikemac · 09-10-2010 3:05pm

Undecided

Did they pay the same amount of PRSI that the PAYE workers pay?

galwayrush · 09-10-2010 3:06pm

No

orourkeda wrote: »

Why are they not entitled to it?

What's the reason behind it?

We're Irish.:rolleyes:

orourkeda · 09-10-2010 3:07pm

galwayrush wrote: »

We're Irish.:rolleyes:

Yes and why don't we pay self employed people dole when their business fails

kowloon · 09-10-2010 3:10pm

No

People are afraid of starting up a new business because the price of failure is too high. If they could rely on social welfare like everyone else we might see some of the entrepreneurial spirit our leaders are saying will pull the country out of the hole it's in.

Claiming expenses is no use if you aren't earning in the first place.

It would be nice to see the banks helping out small businesses, is that not what they were recapitalised for?

galwayrush · 09-10-2010 3:13pm

No

kowloon wrote: »

People are afraid of starting up a new business because the price of failure is too high. If they could rely on social welfare like everyone else we might see some of the entrepreneurial spirit our leaders are saying will pull the country out of the hole it's in.

Claiming expenses is no use if you aren't earning in the first place.

It would be nice to see the banks helping out small businesses, is that not what they were recapitalised for?

Officially, that is what the bail out money was for.
Reality, the banks used a lot of the donated money in buying our Government Bonds.:mad:

R P McMurphy · 09-10-2010 3:16pm

Self employed people have the option of paying PRSI if they want. If they don't then they can't qualify for Jobseeker's Benefit

orourkeda · 09-10-2010 3:17pm

kowloon wrote: »

People are afraid of starting up a new business because the price of failure is too high. If they could rely on social welfare like everyone else we might see some of the entrepreneurial spirit our leaders are saying will pull the country out of the hole it's in.

Claiming expenses is no use if you aren't earning in the first place.

It would be nice to see the banks helping out small businesses, is that not what they were recapitalised for?

I heard Tom McGurk make the point (rather obvious I know) that if the banks are prepared to accept a bail out from the taxpayer why shouldn't they return the favour.

imitation · 09-10-2010 3:18pm

I believe self employed people can still qualify for means tested social welfare payments. I also believe they can make pay the extra PRSI required to qualify for the non means tested PRSI while they are employed.

orourkeda · 09-10-2010 3:19pm

galwayrush wrote: »

Officially, that is what the bail out money was for.
Reality, the banks used a lot of the donated money in buying our Government Bonds.:mad:

It's mad isnt it.

They are actually using bail out money as a means of gaining an extra 6% ish from the people that bailed them out in the first place.

Amhran Nua · 09-10-2010 3:20pm

Self employed people pay class S PRSI, which is your state pension fund. PAYE people don't pay their class A PRSI, which is where your unemployment benefits come from, their employers pay it, and its fairly hefty on top of wages. Businesses and employers can claim the same expenses as the self employed, as can authorised staff, so if you can't claim expenses you probably aren't an executive or in sales.

Still, even with that, the self employed are entitled to SWA, which is means tested, so its not the end of the line if things don't work out. I'd agree that the rules for enterprise bankruptcy need to be loosened up a lot though.

R P McMurphy · 09-10-2010 3:21pm

That is correct imitation.The option to pay 'Pay Related Social Insurance' is there for everyone. Why should people who choose not to pay it get the same as people who contribute into it on an ongoing basis. It is pretty expensive

inbits · 09-10-2010 3:24pm

Self-employed are means tested for jobseekers allowance as is everyone else.If a self-employed person has no partner\wife\husband and don't have over €20,000 (i think) in the bank,a second house assets,etc they probably would get jobseekers allowance.A self-employed person with a partner is means tested against their partners income the same as an ex paye worker who's moving from jobseekers benefit to jobseekers allowance,it would depend on their partners income,they may get full\part\or no jobseekers allowance.

Amhran Nua · 09-10-2010 3:47pm

R P McMurphy wrote: »

Why should people who choose not to pay it get the same as people who contribute into it on an ongoing basis.

People don't contribute to it, their employers do. It doesn't come out of your PAYE wages.

ejmaztec · 09-10-2010 3:52pm

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Self employed people pay class S PRSI, which is your state pension fund. PAYE people don't pay their class A PRSI, which is where your unemployment benefits come from, their employers pay it, and its fairly hefty on top of wages. Businesses and employers can claim the same expenses as the self employed, as can authorised staff, so if you can't claim expenses you probably aren't an executive or in sales.

Still, even with that, the self employed are entitled to SWA, which is means tested, so its not the end of the line if things don't work out. I'd agree that the rules for enterprise bankruptcy need to be loosened up a lot though.

They do if their gross income is over €352 per week.

Amhran Nua · 09-10-2010 3:58pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

They do if their gross income is over €352 per week.

Thats a different form of class A, very similar to what the self employed pay. The employer's contribution is anywhere from 8.5% to 10.75%, a significant whack of money from a self employed person who is otherwise paying the same taxes as you.

R P McMurphy · 09-10-2010 4:01pm

It is deducted from your gross wages

Amhran Nua · 09-10-2010 4:03pm

R P McMurphy wrote: »

It is deducted from your gross wages

Not the employer's contribution.

Your employer also pays PRSI contributions for you. This money (contribution) is not deducted from your pay. It is your employer's contribution to the national Social Insurance Fund.

drunkmonkey · 09-10-2010 4:05pm

No

kowloon wrote: »

People are afraid of starting up a new business because the price of failure is too high.

If you gain, you gain all; if you fail, you lose nothing.

R P McMurphy · 09-10-2010 4:05pm

There is an employer's contribution but also a personal contribution from your gross pay which is pretty substantial and seems to have increased rapidly over the last few years

Amhran Nua · 09-10-2010 4:06pm

R P McMurphy wrote: »

There is an employer's contribution but also a personal contribution from your gross pay which is pretty substantial and seems to have increased rapidly over the last few years

And the self employed pay a very similar contribution.

snubbleste · 09-10-2010 4:07pm

WildBoots wrote: »

It seems unfair to me that many self employed people who have paid their taxes are unable to receive social welfare payments. I know a good few previously self employed people who are finding it hard to put food on the table, surely they deserve some help?

Can you give an example OP?
As pointed out, self-employed are eligible for state supports if they satisfy means-testing.

ejmaztec · 09-10-2010 4:09pm

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Thats a different form of class A, very similar to what the self employed pay. The employer's contribution is anywhere from 8.5% to 10.75%, a significant whack of money from a self employed person who is otherwise paying the same taxes as you.

Over €352 per week there are employee Class A contributions, as well as employer Class A contributions.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Publications/SW14/SW14_10/Pages/ClassA.aspx

Amhran Nua · 09-10-2010 4:13pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

Over €352 per week there are employee Class A contributions, as well as employer Class A contributions.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Publications/SW14/SW14_10/Pages/ClassA.aspx

Which as already mentioned are similar to the self employed class S. If a self employed person wants the full benefit of social welfare support, they also need to make the employers contribution, which does not come directly out of the pay of PAYE workers (everyone else), and which is a decent sum on top of everything else.

kowloon · 09-10-2010 4:25pm

No

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If you gain, you gain all; if you fail, you lose nothing.

The problem is the amount of collateral people have to put up front to get a business loan, you could lose everything and then lose out on social welfare. A lot of people start as sole traders, not private ltd. companies. I believe you stand to lose everything you own if a sole trader business lands you in debt.

I didn't know about the optional PRSI, why do self employed people never opt for this? Is it bad value for money?

Kristopherus · 09-10-2010 4:26pm

No

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Which as already mentioned are similar to the self employed class S. If a self employed person wants the full benefit of social welfare support, they also need to make the employers contribution, which does not come directly out of the pay of PAYE workers (everyone else), and which is a decent sum on top of everything else.

Self employed pay Class S contribution, which is 3% of taxable income, subject to a minimum payment of €253. I think it is likely that this question will be addressed in the next Budget. IIRC Mr Lenihan said in 2009 that there would be a re-aligning of the PRSI system under the guise of a new Social Contribution. I would also bet that this will mean higher contributions for everyone.

09-10-2010 4:32pm

Undecided

Oh, oh dear... I clicked the wrong one... I meant to vote yes, of course they should be entitled to the dole, and I voted no. To clarify, I'm not that insensitive! Yes they should get dole.

WildBoots · 09-10-2010 4:33pm

No

snubbleste wrote: »

Can you give an example OP?
As pointed out, self-employed are eligible for state supports if they satisfy means-testing.

One guy I know worked as a landscape architect, not much work there anymore. Hasn't a penny to his name. Went to social welfare officer and all other relevant people and can't get a cent from them. Paid income tax while working, not sure about PRSI or anything else. Another guy is an artist, he has no electricity in the house and people are bringing food to him in exchange for art lessons. He paid tax and can't get anything either and it isn't for the want of trying. Things are getting really, really bad.

Amhran Nua · 09-10-2010 4:34pm

Kristopherus wrote: »

Self employed pay Class S contribution, which is 3% of taxable income, subject to a minimum payment of €253. I think it is likely that this question will be addressed in the next Budget. IIRC Mr Lenihan said in 2009 that there would be a re-aligning of the PRSI system under the guise of a new Social Contribution. I would also bet that this will mean higher contributions for everyone.

Yup, probably from 3% up to 10-11% on top of income taxes and the rest of it.

Amhran Nua · 09-10-2010 4:37pm

kowloon wrote: »

I didn't know about the optional PRSI, why do self employed people never opt for this? Is it bad value for money?

Its really hard to be self employed in the best of times, handing over a lot more taxes often doesn't make sense.

WildBoots wrote: »

One guy I know worked as a landscape architect, not much work there anymore. Hasn't a penny to his name. Went to social welfare officer and all other relevant people and can't get a cent from them. Paid income tax while working, not sure about PRSI or anything else. Another guy is an artist, he has no electricity in the house and people are bringing food to him in exchange for art lessons. He paid tax and can't get anything either and it isn't for the want of trying. Things are getting really, really bad.

They sound like self employed types alright, they need to go to their community officer and apply for SWA, then maybe get into an educational course to assure their income for a while.

WildBoots · 09-10-2010 4:44pm

No

Amhran Nua wrote: »

They sound like self employed types alright, they need to go to their community officer and apply for SWA, then maybe get into an educational course to assure their income for a while.

They've both been there, nada.

Elevator · 09-10-2010 4:49pm

No

damn straght they should!! I was told after attending my local Cwo that I'd had to come of the company register b4 I'd get any assistance and found out after I didn't have to at all.

the self employed contribute a lot to this country!!

Mr. Presentable · 09-10-2010 4:50pm

No

WildBoots wrote: »

One guy I know worked as a landscape architect, not much work there anymore. Hasn't a penny to his name. Went to social welfare officer and all other relevant people and can't get a cent from them. Paid income tax while working, not sure about PRSI or anything else. Another guy is an artist, he has no electricity in the house and people are bringing food to him in exchange for art lessons. He paid tax and can't get anything either and it isn't for the want of trying. Things are getting really, really bad.

I thought artists were tax exempt in this country.........

Amhran Nua · 09-10-2010 4:50pm

WildBoots wrote: »

They've both been there, nada.

That definetely does not sound right. The only way they could have been refused SWA is if they were means tested and found to have been earning more than around €200 a week. I know the community officers have a weird way of testing that, like what you were earning six months ago or something, but under no circumstances should anyone be left without enough money for food or accommodation, ever.

I doubt you are familiar with all the ins and outs of their finances so no point in pursuing it, but I'd advise them to escalate it in that case.

WildBoots · 09-10-2010 4:53pm

No

Amhran Nua wrote: »

That definetely does not sound right. The only way they could have been refused SWA is if they were means tested and found to have been earning more than around €200 a week. I know the community officers have a weird way of testing that, like what you were earning six months ago or something, but under no circumstances should anyone be left without enough money for food or accommodation, ever.

I doubt you are familiar with all the ins and outs of their finances so no point in pursuing it, but I'd advise them to escalate it in that case.

How would they escalate it?

Amhran Nua · 09-10-2010 4:58pm

WildBoots wrote: »

How would they escalate it?

You're entitled to appeal the decision of a community welfare officer.

Appealing a decision of a Community Welfare Officer

If you are unhappy with a decision of a Community Welfare Officer or a Superintendent Community Welfare Officer, you may appeal the decision. Some administrative areas of the Health Service Executive (HSE) have appointed appeals officers. In areas where there are no appeals officers, you should make your appeal in writing to the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of the HSE Area.

If your appeal concerns a payment of basic Supplementary Welfare Allowance, Mortgage or Rent Supplement, you have a further right to have your appeal heard by the Social Welfare Appeals Board. Discretionary payments such as those that come under the heading of Exceptional Needs Payments cannot be appealed to the Social Welfare Appeals Office.

If you are still not satisfied with the outcome of your appeal, you may take your case to the Office of the Ombudsman or seek judicial review in the High Court.

If its the case that people are regularly being turned away in desperate cases its a very bad sign indeed.

galwayrush · 09-10-2010 5:12pm

No

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

I thought artists were tax exempt in this country.........

Like Bertie's book..:mad:

Kristopherus · 09-10-2010 5:18pm

No

galwayrush wrote: »

Like Bertie's book..:mad:

Indeed:D That b**tard's book is no more artistic tha the Abominable Snowman:D:D:D

galwayrush · 09-10-2010 5:22pm

No

Kristopherus wrote: »

Indeed:D That b**tard's book is no more artistic tha the Abominable Snowman:D:D:D

At least the snowman would be cool.:D...................ok i'll grab my coat...........:o

imitation · 10-10-2010 12:02am

R P McMurphy wrote: »

That is correct imitation.The option to pay 'Pay Related Social Insurance' is there for everyone. Why should people who choose not to pay it get the same as people who contribute into it on an ongoing basis. It is pretty expensive

Thanks, I wasn't a 100% on it, as the social welfares website is about as clear as mud.

Don't get me wrong, I have alot of respect for the self employed, but the perception that they get 0 support from the state is inaccurate.

Should self employed people be able to get the dole?

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