Gun club territory question

johngalway

I think I asked this before, but I don't recall the details of the reply.

Anyway, when a few people were trying to set up the local gun club - there was one here in the past - a neighbouring club gave them hassle by claiming a lot of the territory our local club used to shoot over.

Are there rules and regs on this type of thing or what's the story? The two clubs would be 11 miles apart by road using the shortest route.

homerhop

If they want to be affiliated to desrgc i mean the nargc they got to get nomination from neighbouring clubs, if it is just a group of lads they can get permission off the farmers who own the land and put up posters, but remember ya got to advertise in the local paper as well cos if you go to court with lads poaching the judge will ask had it been advertised. I know this because the club i was in had to go through the process many years ago.

johngalway

Sorry, yes, I did mean affiliation with the NARGC.

What's this about advertising?

homerhop

If you are posting a land under a club name, and want to deal with poachers in the courts, under the wildlife act 1976 Section 44

if prosecuting as a club........... such an offence shall only be prosecuted by the secretary of a recognised body if,
[GA]

(i) prior to the relevant time a notice stating that sporting rights specified in the notice over land so specified have been reserved for the body is published in a newspaper circulating in the area in which the relevant land is situate, and
[GA]

(ii) the land so specified comprises or includes the relevant land.

bunny shooter

johngalway wrote: »

..............Anyway, when a few people were trying to set up the local gun club - there was one here in the past - a neighbouring club gave them hassle by claiming a lot of the territory our local club used to shoot over.

Are there rules and regs on this type of thing or what's the story? The two clubs would be 11 miles apart by road using the shortest route.

I am led to believe it works or more to the point should work on Parish (Church) boundaries

deeksofdoom

johngalway wrote: »

I think I asked this before, but I don't recall the details of the reply.

Anyway, when a few people were trying to set up the local gun club - there was one here in the past - a neighbouring club gave them hassle by claiming a lot of the territory our local club used to shoot over.

Are there rules and regs on this type of thing or what's the story? The two clubs would be 11 miles apart by road using the shortest route.

If your thinking of forming a cub then why not do it through the countryside alliance. All you need is 7 members to form a club and get signed permission off the farmers.

I know of a place where there are 2 clubs on the same ground. One is NARGC and the other is CAI.

homerhop

is it 7 or 10 before the doj recognise it as a club?

deeksofdoom

homerhop wrote: »

is it 7 or 10 before the doj recognise it as a club?

What do the DOJ have to do with anything? 7 members and the CAI give you insurance for €45 each.

homerhop

deeksofdoom wrote: »

What do the DOJ have to do with anything? 7 members and the CAI give you insurance for €45 each.

I was thinking back to reading something somewhere when all the **** kicked off about the new license system and it saying that a club would not be recognised by that lot unless it consisted of a minimum amount of members. It was to stop 3 or 4 lads getting together and saying they were a "club"

Edit..... found it, its 5 members...

THE REQUIREMENT FOR A CLUB TO BE PROPERLY ESTABLISHED
A. It is suggested that clubs must be properly established before they can be considered for authorisation by An Garda Síochána, in accordance with the S 33 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006.
B. That in order to be properly established each club should have at least a recognised Chair, Club Secretary and Training Officer
C. The club must have an agreed constitution and should consist of at least five active members. The club should also have a geographical location associated with it.

deeksofdoom

homerhop wrote: »

I was thinking back to reading something somewhere when all the **** kicked off about the new license system and it saying that a club would not be recognised by that lot unless it consisted of a minimum amount of members. It was to stop 3 or 4 lads getting together and saying they were a "club"

If you have, a name, landowners permission, a constitution, rules, a bank account, an elected committee and officers, all you need is insurance which you can get from CAI with a minimum of 7 members for a group at €45 each.

Its not that hard to create a club.

homerhop

I never said it was hard to establish a club, please see my edit

pedroeibar1

johngalway wrote: »

I think I asked this before, but I don't recall the details of the reply.

Anyway, when a few people were trying to set up the local gun club - there was one here in the past - a neighbouring club gave them hassle by claiming a lot of the territory our local club used to shoot over.

Are there rules and regs on this type of thing or what's the story? The two clubs would be 11 miles apart by road using the shortest route.

It has little to do with farmers' permissions, it has everything to do with the owners of the Sporting Rights, which may or may not belong to the farmer(s) in question. There is no point in getting the 'OK' from a farmer when he does not have the legal right to grant permission.

Sporting Rights i.e. the right to hunt over land are real property, and can be bought, sold or leased. They used to belong to the big estates/landlords for historical reasons, and with the break-up of the estates under the Land Commission those rights were either held back or passed with the land. In many cases it was a mixture, so the big estate near me held back the sporting rights over what once was its 35,000 acres. On the wife's family place her ancestor got the rights when he bought out the farm, but a neighbouring farm bought from the same estate did not get the rights.

NARGC might have rules about what it might or not accept from potential members, or potential conflict between neighbouring clubs, but the first question is who owns the sporting rights, who has permission, and that is what governs the right to shoot over a piece of land. If you get valid permission in writing you have the basis for a club, all you then need is members:)
Rs,
K.

terminator2

why not join the club that is there already ....sounds like there is enough ground to go around ......or amalgamate......confucius say many hands make light work

bunny shooter

homerhop wrote: »

I was thinking back to reading something somewhere when all the **** kicked off about the new license system and it saying that a club would not be recognised by that lot unless it consisted of a minimum amount of members. It was to stop 3 or 4 lads getting together and saying they were a "club"

Edit..... found it, its 5 members...

THE REQUIREMENT FOR A CLUB TO BE PROPERLY ESTABLISHED
A. It is suggested that clubs must be properly established before they can be considered for authorisation by An Garda Síochána, in accordance with the S 33 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006.
B. That in order to be properly established each club should have at least a recognised Chair, Club Secretary and Training Officer
C. The club must have an agreed constitution and should consist of at least five active members. The club should also have a geographical location associated with it.

Does this only come into effect for "rifle & pistol" clubs ?

bunny shooter

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

It has little to do with farmers' permissions, it has everything to do with the owners of the Sporting Rights, which may or may not belong to the farmer(s) in question. There is no point in getting the 'OK' from a farmer when he does not have the legal right to grant permission.

Sporting Rights i.e. the right to hunt over land are real property, and can be bought, sold or leased. They used to belong to the big estates/landlords for historical reasons, and with the break-up of the estates under the Land Commission those rights were either held back or passed with the land. In many cases it was a mixture, so the big estate near me held back the sporting rights over what once was its 35,000 acres. On the wife's family place her ancestor got the rights when he bought out the farm, but a neighbouring farm bought from the same estate did not get the rights.

NARGC might have rules about what it might or not accept from potential members, or potential conflict between neighbouring clubs, but the first question is who owns the sporting rights, who has permission, and that is what governs the right to shoot over a piece of land. If you get valid permission in writing you have the basis for a club, all you then need is members:)
Rs,
K.

To the best of my knowledge you're right regarding sporting rights as the same happend with fishing rights.

However, here's the bit I'm not sure of..........if you have the sporting rights does that give you access rights onto the land to exercise the sporting rights?

bunny shooter

terminator2 wrote: »

why not join the club that is there already ....sounds like there is enough ground to go around ......or amalgamate......confucius say many hands make light work

There are many reasons why this may not be possible.................eg banned from existing club, existing clubs won't let you join, you don't want to join as you don't like Mr X or Mr Y in the existing club etc etc

Tackleberrywho

bunny shooter wrote: »

To the best of my knowledge you're right regarding sporting rights as the same happend with fishing rights.

However, here's the bit I'm not sure of..........if you have the sporting rights does that give you access rights onto the land to exercise the sporting rights?

That is open to interpretation
My fathers farm has sporting rights and Turbary rights also on the deeds.
All of the other farms in the area also have them.

however I know of a few former demesnes that the sporting rights belong to some say Lord Ross.
Now Lord Ross would have it up his you know what to come onto a farmers farm to shoot the kings deer in this day and age

Equally ones rights can be relinquished if not used AFAIK at least once a year (open to correction here)

So if some dude has your sporting rights and has not used them in years, and you squad on his sporting rights then lord muck has tough titty

homerhop

the duke of leinster owned the shooting rights to a woodland our club used to shoot, when he didnt renew his title after 2 years we had to apply to coilte for the tender to shoot it.

Bunny you could be right, it was something i had read and it just stuck in my mind at the time

pedroeibar1

bunny shooter wrote: »

However, here's the bit I'm not sure of..........if you have the sporting rights does that give you access rights onto the land to exercise the sporting rights?

I looked into this before and it was such a nightmare I gave up.
From the bit of research I did, my understanding (layman’s) is that the owner of the sporting rights can enter onto land to exercise those rights i.e. to take game. However, if he causes any damage he is liable for that – e.g. a person might have the rights to shoot but he cannot wade through a crop, flattening corn, without penalty. Entering onto land over which he has sporting rights is not trespass.

However, a lower court (I think in Tralee, the story is a bit duirt bean liom go nduirt bean lei gur chuala si bean a ra...) heard a case for trespass brought by a landowner against the owner of the rights and the judge found that the owner of the rights did not trespass but he had no right to bring his dog onto the land other than on a lead. Obviously that makes shooting impossible, the case was not appealed to higher court, so it’s a bit in Limbo. And no, I do not know if it is true or not - CAI or NARGC might help.

Some farmers around me see shooting as elitist, know that the rights belong to a gobdaw in the City and make it unpleasant for everyone, just being pigheaded – they are like that with everything, every small town/village has them. A few others will say to me ‘Shoot away, not a bother’ but that puts me on the wrong side of the law, so it’s uncomfortable - if I strayed onto a begrudger's land and did not have permission from the owner of the shoooting rights I could be charged with armed trespass by the landowner and for poaching by the owner of the rights !

It is a fiasco left over from the break-up of the old estates, mingled with begrudgery, ignorance, bad manners, pettymindedness and plain greed.
I shoot only where I have concrete permission from a landowner who also owns the rights or with somebody who has permission to shoot over a specified piece of ground.
Rs,
P.

pedroeibar1

homerhop wrote: »

the duke of leinster owned the shooting rights to a woodland our club used to shoot, when he didnt renew his title after 2 years we had to apply to coilte for the tender to shoot it.

Bunny you could be right, it was something i had read and it just stuck in my mind at the time

I think the period is actually twelve years..
P.

homerhop

its just from dealing with it ourselves pedro. Up to 6 years ago some sod renewed the leinster title in england, then 4 years ago we had to apply to coilte, when we asked about it we were told the title hadnt been renewed. I must ask the oldfella about it because some of the houses in castledermot came under his rent and there was a big fuss about it because there were fears of back money having to be paid to some new duke

Tackleberrywho

homerhop wrote: »

its just from dealing with it ourselves pedro. Up to 6 years ago some sod renewed the leinster title in england, then 4 years ago we had to apply to coilte, when we asked about it we were told the title hadnt been renewed. I must ask the oldfella about it because some of the houses in castledermot came under his rent and there was a big fuss about it because there were fears of back money having to be paid to some new duke

Similar happened outside Birr a few years back lord Ross relinquished all rights and the locals owned it outright.

or thats the story i was told anyway.

eireanbo

by laws my laws your laws....get your permission and go out and in joy the day nun off it will matter in a 100 years.............