Another supplements thread

Sapsorrow

Just looking into ordering some more supplements on iherb. Was looking into cod liver oil and krill oil, cod liver oil is higher in A and D but supposidly the EFAs in krill oil (which is also a fair bit more expensive) are more bioavailable, it's more environmentally sustainable etc. Does anyone have any thoughts on which to go for? It would be good to lump the EFAs and vit A together into one supplement and it's the main failing of the krill oil (which is very low in vit A) as far as I can see. I know that the vitamin A and D can compete for each other in the cod liver oil too, so I'm guessing I should take my 5000IU of vitamin D at the other end of the day if I decide to go for it. I know I could go research it for myself but I'm feeling lazy Also looking for a multimineral (bearing in mind I already take about 500mg calcium and 250mg cmagnesium a day) for copper, zinc, selenium etc.. and possibly a K2 supplement if anyone has any suggestions, there are so many brands on iherb it would make your eyes bleed to try and compare all of them! Arrghh it's so complicated, someone tell me what to buy!!

Red Cortina

If you're gonna spend your hard earned cash then you should really be reading up on it as much as possible. Have you read this article?
http://thehealthyskeptic.org/the-definitive-fish-oil-buyers-guide

Sapsorrow

Ah yes a while ago now (long enough to forget it all lol) I was trying think who wrote that article so I could find it again, thanks!

Sapsorrow

Aw come on ye sh*te B%stards, El D (I like your new nic name bwt makes you sound a bit like a mafioso) you put me onto iHerb in the first place so I'm looking at you :pac:

brianthebard

both cod liver and krill are environmentally damaging imo, except we already know how much damage we've done to cod stocks, whereas we've only recently started to use krill. on the other hand cod liver is a by product of cod fishing, whereas krill fishing is purely for the oil from what I can tell. So I don't know which is better ethically. Are there any omega 3 supps that aren't made from fish out of interest?

If you are taking both vit A and D how important will them competing be?

El_Dangeroso

Hello, wrote a really long reply to this yesterday, thought I posted it but must have just shut down my PC without clicking submit!

I think the jist of what I said was I'd only take a supplement if I really couldn't get it from elsewhere.

I'm giving up fish oil when my current batch of CLO (cold-fermented - expensive but all other CLO is synthetic retinol = bad) is gone. I'm gonna get really rigid with my omega 6 and keep it below 5% of calories (<9g/day), that way I can fulfil my omega 3 needs from fish 2-3 times a week.

Chris Masterjohn has just written an excellent treatise on the EFAs:

http://www.westonaprice.org/know-your-fats/2021-precious-yet-perilous.html

Skip to the summary points at the bottom. I think that fish oil can be used like a drug when someone has established heart disease, but I wince when I see that Robb Wolf fish oil calculator, healthy young people do not need 17 fish oil caps a day! Fish oil at the end of the day is still PUFA and thus very prone to oxidisation and causes damage in the liver in excess. Everything is a U-shaped curve I've found. If your gonna take a fish oil, take one you can taste (ie an unflavoured one). Let your taste buds let you know if it is rancid and when is too much.

I might return to the fish oil (going with wild salmon oil next time - most sustainable) as it was really useful in boosting my mood and balancing the odd meal out where omega 6 is unavoidable. But I'll see how I go.

As regards supplementation for an otherwise healthy person, I'd take D, magnesium and 1mg K2. These three are the hardest to get enough of in even the most immaculate of modern diets. They are also the three that I've personally noticed the biggest change in my health from.

Additionally I like to eat 'supplemental foods' as in foods I don't particularly like but eat for their hard-to-get nutrients.

- Kelp granules instead of salt for iodine (this is a painless change to make)
- Calf's liver once a week (nature's multivitamin and especially rich in copper which is impossible to get in any quantity elsewhere)
- 2-3 Brazil nuts for selenium.

Sick people might have different needs but you'd really need a book to go into that in any detail.

Edited to add: Don't bother supplementing with A, deficiency in the western world is very rare.

Sapsorrow

Thanks guys, appreciate the input Do you take any particular brand of K2 El D? I really suck at eating enough fish (bacon tastes too good) and I can't seem to stop eating loads of omega 6 so I think in my case it would be wise for now at least. Vegetarians use flax oil or Udos oil for omega three but it's not very easily converted to usable fatty acids in the body by most people. Maybe the cheap old cod liver would be the way to go seeing as it's more of a by product? I really can't get my head around liver I'm afraid, tried more pate there tonight and the taste made me nauseus, it tasted like something rotten and definately not for eating

metamorphosis

Theres K2 - mk4 and 7 - 4 is animal source while 7 is from natto afaik.

These might be of general vit k interest http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/06/vitamin-k2-menatetrenone-mk-4.html

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/11/cardiovascular-disease-and-vitamin-k2.html

El D got me onto Vit K2, ye got me onto D too which i swear by but i dont ever take magnesium really which i am re thinking from reading this thread

The studies have mainly been on mk4 - this is what i take

silverharp

I've started using my kid's Eye Q

A friend of mine had good things to say a product called Crystal Mind but I havnt read any independent reviews of it

http://www.eastcoastinternational.ie/crystal_mind.html

El_Dangeroso

I take thorne brand K2, 50 bucks for three years supply. I really wouldn't take D without Mg and K2.

metamorphosis

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

I take thorne brand K2, 50 bucks for three years supply. I really wouldn't take D without Mg and K2.

Why? I am presuming they work in synergy? Im currently taking 4400 IU D3 and K2. How much Mag would you recommend?

I must also get your brand K2. No doubt saving with that over me with my 30 day supply!

El_Dangeroso

ULstudent wrote: »

Why? I am presuming they work in synergy? Im currently taking 4400 IU D3 and K2. How much Mag would you recommend?

I must also get your brand K2. No doubt saving with that over me with my 30 day supply!

K2 is a very important co-factor of vitamin D. In fact most cases of what we thought were vitamin D toxicity were actually cases of vitamin K2 deficiency.

Re: Mg - 300mg is plenty for a healthy person in addition to a nutritious diet. If you take too much you'll know ALL about it.

Iristxo

I take one spoonful a day of carlson fish oil:

http://www.iherb.com/Carlson-Labs-The-Very-Finest-Fish-Oil-Lemon-6-7-fl-oz-200-ml/2801?at=0

One capsule vit K2-mk7:

http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-MK-7-Vitamin-K2-as-MK-7-90-mcg-60-Softgels/256?at=0

magnesium which I bought in and 2000iu vit D a day

Sapsorrow

Iristxo wrote: »

I take one spoonful a day of carlson fish oil:

http://www.iherb.com/Carlson-Labs-The-Very-Finest-Fish-Oil-Lemon-6-7-fl-oz-200-ml/2801?at=0

One capsule vit K2-mk7:

http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-MK-7-Vitamin-K2-as-MK-7-90-mcg-60-Softgels/256?at=0

magnesium which I bought in and 2000iu vit D a day

Yay you're back! I was wondering where you'd been!

Ouchette

Sapsorrow wrote: »

TVegetarians use flax oil or Udos oil for omega three but it's not very easily converted to usable fatty acids in the body by most people. Maybe the cheap old cod liver would be the way to go seeing as it's more of a by product?

EL_D posted this link http://www.v-pure.com/omega3/?gclid=...FQE8lAod-iKtKA to algae-based omega 3 supplements when I was in here asking about vegetarian alternatives to fish oil a while ago. Algae's got to be pretty sustainable and it contains the right kind of omega 3 too, unlike the flaxseed stuff.

Iristxo

Sapsorrow wrote: »

Yay you're back! I was wondering where you'd been!

Hey, very busy these days but always keeping an eye on the stuff Thanks for your enthusiasm. Where's Khristina and Temple by the way? Don't think I've seen them in a while, specially Khristina.

metamorphosis

Iristxo wrote: »

Hey, very busy these days but always keeping an eye on the stuff Thanks for your enthusiasm. Where's Khristina and Temple by the way? Don't think I've seen them in a while, specially Khristina.

Not sure if ya realise this or not - but temple = El Danger and Khrystina = Sapsarrow!

Iristxo

ULstudent wrote: »

Not sure if ya realise this or not - but temple = El Danger and Khrystina = Sapsarrow!

Ah... right. No, I didn't realize it. Hello back then

Sapsorrow

Lol wow you've been gone ages if it was before my name change, sorry it didn't even occur to me to mention it! Welcome back!

anniehoo

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

I take thorne brand K2, .

Newbie to this thread. Really interesting info from you all. I take cod liver oil, glucosamine sulphate, evening primrose and a Vitamin B complex. 4 different capsules. Am reading what El D said there re: Vitamin D, Mg and the K2 and wondering am i taking unnecessary supplements?

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Re: Mg - 300mg is plenty for a healthy person in addition to a nutritious diet. If you take too much you'll know ALL about it.

What happens?

El_Dangeroso

anniehoo wrote: »

Newbie to this thread. Really interesting info from you all. I take cod liver oil, glucosamine sulphate, evening primrose and a Vitamin B complex. 4 different capsules. Am reading what El D said there re: Vitamin D, Mg and the K2 and wondering am i taking unnecessary supplements?

I have no idea tbh. I do know that Gamma linoleic acid (primrose oil) isn't too effective on it's own, but combined with omega 3 it works to reduce inflammation. What CLO do you take? If it has been heat treated (most have) I would ditch it as it contains replacement synthetic vitamin A which doesn't do much good.

B-complex is a mixed bag tbh, the research is all over the place. Some studies show an increased cancer incidence in those who supplement with folate. I trust real food whenever possible, nature has all this stuff figured out. Liver is an excellent source of B-vits.

No reason in my mind to take glucosamine when it's available abundantly in home-made chicken stock (along with lots of other goodies like gelatin).

What happens?

Your bowels get a nice clearing out :P

anniehoo

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

What CLO do you take?

Lidls own brand capsules...wasting my time and money by the sounds of then.

wrote:

No reason in my mind to take glucosamine when it's available abundantly in home-made chicken stock (along with lots of other goodies like gelatin).

Clearly ive done no research into any of the supplements and believe the little bit of supposed evidence you see in ads. I have a slightly creaky knee and am taking them to i suppose "support" my joints. Your fish oil article was a real eye opener. Im certainly not the only one who just pops supplements willy nilly, its really interesting to read how little if any benefits we're getting from them.

Taking primrose oil for PMS, hmmm....maybe its placebo but have been taking it for a few months and my moods are definitely not as "severe".

El_Dangeroso

anniehoo wrote: »

Lidls own brand capsules...wasting my time and money by the sounds of then.


Clearly ive done no research into any of the supplements and believe the little bit of supposed evidence you see in ads. I have a slightly creaky knee and am taking them to i suppose "support" my joints. Your fish oil article was a real eye opener. Im certainly not the only one who just pops supplements willy nilly, its really interesting to read how little if any benefits we're getting from them.

Taking primrose oil for PMS, hmmm....maybe its placebo but have been taking it for a few months and my moods are definitely not as "severe".

Magnesium is good for PMS. I'll take the placebo affect over nothing though!

El_Dangeroso

Just read there we can manufacture glucosamine from starch. Why would supplements help some people with pain then? I wonder if we lose some of the ability to manufacture it as we age.. questions, questions.

metamorphosis

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Just read there we can manufacture glucosamine from starch. Why would supplements help some people with pain then? I wonder if we lose some of the ability to manufacture it as we age.. questions, questions.

A few weeks a go i came across reference to a recent study that pretty much shed light on the effectiveness of glucosamine and chondoroitin supplements: pretty much useless. It Had a study group over a number of years and showed no real improvements in their condotions. If i can find it i will post it. I think there was a quick snippet in the health section of the indo or the times about it recently too.

Iv been trying to find how effective cissus is on bone health and large doses on fish oil? Any of the old reliable El D references or thoughts on hand?

El_Dangeroso

ULstudent wrote: »

A few weeks a go i came across reference to a recent study that pretty much shed light on the effectiveness of glucosamine and chondoroitin supplements: pretty much useless. It Had a study group over a number of years and showed no real improvements in their condotions. If i can find it i will post it. I think there was a quick snippet in the health section of the indo or the times about it recently too.

Iv been trying to find how effective cissus is on bone health and large doses on fish oil? Any of the old reliable El D references or thoughts on hand?

Yeah, glucosamine does seem to help a little with joint pain, possibly a mild anti-inflammatory effect, but there's better ways of reducing inflammation IMO.

Cissus is a new one on me, this is the first time I've heard of it so can't really comment. Might be helpful as some kind of medicine rather than supplement and that's really outside my area of expertise. I'm generally interested in what foods promote good health and any supplements that replace things we cannot get so easily from food in a modern food environment. I use the word supplement loosely, what I actually mean is replacement.

How large is the dose of fish oil? Once you're taking more than you can conceivably get from food then your in the realms of speculation. I do know that high omega 6 content industrial seed oils in the diet has been shown to reduce bone density in animal models.

Red Cortina

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

K2 is a very important co-factor of vitamin D. In fact most cases of what we thought were vitamin D toxicity were actually cases of vitamin K2 deficiency.

Very interested in this, can you point me to where I could read more?

El_Dangeroso

This paper mainly:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17145139

One thing in that paper is wrong, Chris postulates that D depletes K but according to this paper:

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=7912926

that's not the case. But the observation that K relieves the symptoms of D toxicity remains the same.

No nutrient works in a vacuum, that's why most studies that test individual vitamins fail to show any difference. It's also why I'm weary of supplementation to begin with, used to be a real supplement junky before I copped myself on and started trying to get as much as I can from food. But I consistently fail on the K2, D and magnesium, so I do replace those in the hope that the net benefit will outweigh any downsides. Others may have different needs but those are mine.

danlen

If supplementing with vitamin D and K2 is there a dosage ratio that should be followed. For example is there a set amount of K2 that should be taken when a dose of 1000iu of D is taken?

El_Dangeroso

danlen wrote: »

If supplementing with vitamin D and K2 is there a dosage ratio that should be followed. For example is there a set amount of K2 that should be taken when a dose of 1000iu of D is taken?

Not really, 1mg of K2 for an adult is perfectly adequate, anything more is outside the bounds of what you can reasonably get from food, but they have used up to 45mg a day in bone-density trials in Japan without any apparent issue.

Vitamin D you need a blood test after supplementing for 10 weeks. Start at 2,000IU and work incrementally from there. Your 25(OH)D levels should be in the normal range (80-100nmol/l).

danlen

Sorry for digging up this thread but I'm feeling a little shafted with my recent delivery of vitamin K2.

I just want to check that the levels of K2 suggested here are correct, i.e. 1mg per day?

The only reason I ask is that I have just recieved a delivery of K2 and each tab is only 50 mcg!! That would mean I would need to take... 20 a day!!!? Have I just bought a crap product??? If so where do ye get your K2??

Renn

Guys, I have 'Healthy Origins' Vit D 5000 IU...but it seems as if I should be taking some K2 and Mg with this - what would you recommend off iherb (this is where I got my Vit D from).


Thanks.

Renn

This thread led me on to this which is simple but interesting reading all the same.

El_Dangeroso

Renn wrote: »

Guys, I have 'Healthy Origins' Vit D 5000 IU...but it seems as if I should be taking some K2 and Mg with this - what would you recommend off iherb (this is where I got my Vit D from).


Thanks.

Thorne K2 is pricey but it's 3 years supply (1mg/day). Mg, anything but magnesium oxide would be good.

Renn

Just noticed for the K2 supplement that the Expiration Date is November 2011, which kinda sucks for a three year supply

Renn

Btw, am I wasting my time buying something like this from Holland & Barrett? They've that good deal on at the moment and I need to pick some magnesium up at some stage. Under ingredients it has 'Magnesium Oxide' so I'm guessing this shouldn't be got!

El_Dangeroso

Renn wrote: »

Just noticed for the K2 supplement that the Expiration Date is November 2011, which kinda sucks for a three year supply

I really would doubt that that makes any difference.

Renn wrote: »

Btw, am I wasting my time buying something like this from Holland & Barrett? They've that good deal on at the moment and I need to pick some magnesium up at some stage. Under ingredients it has 'Magnesium Oxide' so I'm guessing this shouldn't be got!

You can absorb about 5% of oxide I think, so need to be taking loads to get enough, but it will give you diarrhea long before you get enough.