Jeeze! is Dick Roche right on this one ?

Fulton Crown

Listening to News talk this morn - the political discussion bit arter 9 oclock.

Dick Roche was on with Twit(ter) Coveney of Fine gael and a few other politicos and a chappie from Sun Bus Post who broke the Bull O'Donoghues trough snuffling orgies.

Made sad listening all that fcukin waste re the voting machines and the clowns who signed 25 year leases on the storage.

And the litany of poor controls,lack of any benchmarking around some HSE retraining schemes for low paid staff.

Roche said - and this is the first time i heard any senior in any party say it "It's time to stop blaming EVERYTHING on Ministers - some of these cock ups are down to the sheer incompentece of senior public service managers."

Now i have long felt that - and what really torques my nuts is that we don't know who these people are...are they reprimanded /demoted/loose bonusus/loose promotion...probably not.

This should stop...and stop now !

This is where the media must come in ...investigate ...name and shame the incompetent clowns.

Mark my words...about a year ago I started a thread on who will be our media heros...never more important...come on RTE come on Newstalk show us you have the balls for it !

fly_agaric

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Roche said - and this is the first time i heard any senior in any party say it "It's time to stop blaming EVERYTHING on Ministers - some of these cock ups are down to the sheer incompentece of senior public service managers."

Just usual FF pattern of scattergunning blame for their own incompetence and failures (lehmans brudders, unions, bankers, the EU [if they dare try and mess with our world beating tax system!] etc etc - anyone but the people actually in charge).

IMO, senior ps/cs managers are creatures of the minister. They don't get criticised by their political masters because they do as the minister orders without complaint even when it comes to implementing (or tyring to!) madcap schemes like decentralisation. The low amount of protest over that illustrates (to me) how much control the ministers/politicians have.

(edit: your example of the hse skill fund does not seem like something one could blame a minister for but I could argue that it seems a culture of greed, expectation of an entitlement to lavish perks and expenses pervades the whole political system here...)

Fulton Crown

fly_agaric wrote: »

Just usual FF pattern of scattergunning blame for their own incompetence and failures (lehmans brudders, unions, bankers, the EU [if they dare try and mess with our world beating tax system!] etc etc - anyone but the people actually in charge).

IMO, senior ps/cs managers are creatures of the minister. They don't get criticised by their political masters because they do as the minister orders without complaint even when it comes to implementing (or tyring to!) madcap schemes like decentralisation. The low amount of protest over that illustrates (to me) how much control the ministers/politicians have.

No ..can't agree with you there my friend.

Roches point was that the minister can't be aware of every detail of wahts going on in their Dept.

Just take the HSE retraining scheme - the idea itself was good - and presumably was approved by the Minister.

However the implementation as reported was a complete fiasco caused, it would appear by the sheer incompetence of the line management.

That is my point...I am seriously pissed by what appears to numerous other examples of this malaise right through the system.

Putting it bluntly our public service has failed us ...seriously failed us...and it's time that these clowns were outed.:mad:

fly_agaric

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Roches point was that the minister can't be aware of every detail of wahts going on in their Dept.

That's true but most of the really big f-ups have been driven by politicans.

The civil/public servants didn't just decide to setup all the quangos (incl. the hse itself) or purchase voting machines, or decentralise fragments of the civil service to every little town in the country

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Just take the HSE retraining scheme - the idea itself was good - and presumably was approved by the Minister.

However the implementation as reported was a complete fiasco caused, it would appear by the sheer incompetence of the line management.

It looks like it was also caused by greed and the example in how to behave with the public's money is set by the politicians.

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Putting it bluntly our public service has failed us ...seriously failed us...and it's time that these clowns were outed.:mad:

Part of the public service have failed us but I think the root of the problems is the whole political system. If we can improve it we'll make much more progress than would be achieved by having the media witchhunt failing public service managers.

IMO there should be much more consequences than there are now for the managers & leaders in the ps/cs who fail badly at their jobs but bringing in trial-by-media for them is not the answer.

jimmycrackcorm

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Roche said - and this is the first time i heard any senior in any party say it "It's time to stop blaming EVERYTHING on Ministers - some of these cock ups are down to the sheer incompentece of senior public service managers."

Now i have long felt that - and what really torques my nuts is that we don't know who these people are...are they reprimanded /demoted/loose bonusus/loose promotion...probably not.

This should stop...and stop now !

This is the crux of the problems in the Civil Service.

Who got the blame or got fired for the PPARS fiasco - who was even in charge?

Why was the e Voting not simply trialled properly before committing to the roll out?

The minister's job is to:

* Propose a good idea - e Voting is a good idea just as internet banking and flight booking is
* Ask his department to evaluate this and produce findings
* Direct his department to roll it out if it is workable.

It's up to the civil service to actually do the work. government only directs policy. But of course we all know that you cannot be fired from the civil service for incompetence.

That needs to change.

Fulton Crown

fly_agaric wrote: »

That's true but most of the really big f-ups have been driven by politicans.

Yes OK I agree on that.

The civil/public servants didn't just decide to setup all the quangos (incl. the hse itself) or purchase voting machines, or decentralise fragments of the civil service to every little town in the country.

Too true...but not EVERY quango is disfunctional.

It looks like it was also caused by greed and the example in how to behave with the public's money is set by the politicians.

A little too simplistic for me I'm afraid...just because some politicos have their snouts deep in the trough is not reason for public servants following their example !

Part of the public service have failed us but I think the root of the problems is the whole political system. If we can improve it we'll make much more progress than would be achieved by having the media witchhunt failing public service managers

.

Yes i agree but I am not talking about a media "witchhunt". What pisses people off - me included - is the amount of simply staggering waste that is being uncovered - togetther with the unbridled hubris and sheer inneficiency at places like Fas - and nobody appears to be responsible or sanctioned.

And as the media have only started digging - there is more much more of it around.

IMO there should be much more consequences than there are now for the managers & leaders in the ps/cs who fail badly at their jobs but bringing in trial-by-media for them is not the answer.

I don't see it as trial by media - rather people being held accountable for their actions and decisions and not being able to hide under the cloak of anonymity.

My honest opinion is that there are very good people in the public service but also that is a significant coterie of lazy wasteful disinterested and sheer incompetent there also...and the whole line management system is pretty well rotten to the core.

Callan57

More kicking to touch ... I'm a Government Minister, I drive around in my big car & collect my big salary & expenses but I'm not responsible for anything.

Who appointed the people at the top of these organisations ... where did they come from & what were their qualifications for the positions?
Answer FF hacks .... and they took their lead from their political masters.

It is my view that years of FF malign influence has corrupted the public service & removed from positions of influence anyone who exhibited the values of integrity, independence & basic honest.

nesf

fly_agaric wrote: »

IMO, senior ps/cs managers are creatures of the minister.

Go watch a season or two of "Yes Minister!", yes it's satire but from all accounts it's quite close to the reality of parliamentary democracy.

Shea O'Meara

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Listening to News talk this morn - the political discussion bit arter 9 oclock.

Dick Roche was on with Twit(ter) Coveney of Fine gael and a few other politicos and a chappie from Sun Bus Post who broke the Bull O'Donoghues trough snuffling orgies.

Made sad listening all that fcukin waste re the voting machines and the clowns who signed 25 year leases on the storage.

And the litany of poor controls,lack of any benchmarking around some HSE retraining schemes for low paid staff.

Roche said - and this is the first time i heard any senior in any party say it "It's time to stop blaming EVERYTHING on Ministers - some of these cock ups are down to the sheer incompentece of senior public service managers."

Now i have long felt that - and what really torques my nuts is that we don't know who these people are...are they reprimanded /demoted/loose bonusus/loose promotion...probably not.

This should stop...and stop now !

This is where the media must come in ...investigate ...name and shame the incompetent clowns.

Mark my words...about a year ago I started a thread on who will be our media heros...never more important...come on RTE come on Newstalk show us you have the balls for it !

Don't believe a word of it. FFail spin.
To continue your theme, Dick 'water water everywhere, but not a drop to drink' Roche is conveniently side-stepping the fact that, as every school child knows, the government and it's ministers are 100% responsible for any actions carried out by the state. Those who carry out policy in various departments act for and under a minister. They can't even pass blame to previous governments at this stage so they are trying to pass the buck in any way possible. Are we to seriously get on board with, 'It's not the government but those sneaky namless pen pushers? Wow, FFail must be alright so! People should stop picking on the people we pay to run and who are responsible for the upkeep of the country!' FFail would love you to buy into that.
Also the E-voting was a pet FFail project.

Shea O'Meara

Fulton_Crown wrote: »

Yes i agree but I am not talking about a media "witchhunt". What pisses people off - me included - is the amount of simply staggering waste that is being uncovered - togetther with the unbridled hubris and sheer inneficiency at places like Fas - and nobody appears to be responsible or sanctioned.

Genuine question; wasn't Harney's husband on the Fas board for many years and bailed not long before the scandals hit?

puss

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Genuine question; wasn't Harney's husband on the Fas board for many years and bailed not long before the scandals hit?

There must not have been any pillow talk there!!

heyjude

They can't have it both ways, when the boom was still going, the government claimed credit for everything, every job created, every hospital or school built/opened, every new road/train line/luas line opened, and every positive bit of news that was going, we were told that to attract and retain top quality people in politics we needed to reward them handsomely(and it seems we definitely did this), now post Celtic Tiger when the crap has hit the fan, we're now being told that we shouldn't hold government ministers responsible, its the public service managers we should blame, they made mistakes etc.

Well the problem is, if you take credit for all the good news during the boom times(and pay yourselves accordingly), then you've gotta take the blame when your policies bring the whole house crashing down.

In any organisation, if you get paid the big bucks, then you've gotta carry the can when things go wrong. The difference is though, that in many organisations or companies, if your a board member or chief executive and through your disastrous decisions, your company/organisation suffers heavily losses/serious damage, then you'd be fired. When the same thing happened with this government, they've stayed put and try to repackage themselves as the right team to lead the country to recovery. Whatever happened to that slogan from the last general election about Fianna Fail being a safe pair of hands in which to entrust the economy ? Who knew that according to Dick now, apparently it was the public service managers that were being entrusted with this duty, while Dick and co just collected their generous salaries and were driven around in their ministerial Mercs.

Yes, some senior public service managers are culpable, but ultimately based on pay, level of responsibility and seniority, the Minister is responsible and if you can't stand the heat, keep out of the kitchen(ie. resign)

Shea O'Meara

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Genuine question; wasn't Harney's husband on the Fas board for many years and bailed not long before the scandals hit?

Found it;
Mary Harney was Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment from June 1997 until September 2004, and had responsibility for FÁS during that period.
She appointed Brian Geoghegan as Chairman of FÁS in November 2000, and he served as Chairman until January 2006.
The pair married in November 2001.

So......I think ministers are ultimately responsible, but if you really want to go the Dick Roche route, please see above;)

fly_agaric

nesf wrote: »

Go watch a season or two of "Yes Minister!", yes it's satire but from all accounts it's quite close to the reality of parliamentary democracy.

But... its about another country. Imo if Sir Humphrey was a Sec. General he would have made much more "stink" over the brain farts of our politicians.

fly_agaric

Fulton Crown wrote: »

A little too simplistic for me I'm afraid...just because some politicos have their snouts deep in the trough is not reason for public servants following their example !

You're right but unfortunately it becomes harder to get people lower down to do the correct thing (in this case exercise some probity while handling the public's money) when they know the ministers & "friends" have their heads in the trough snuffing up all the goodies they can get.

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Yes i agree but I am not talking about a media "witchhunt".

When you were saying the media should report on officials involved in "waste" I thought that was what you meant. If it is something specific like the (mis)use of monies in the skill fund or FAS budgets I would not have a problem with that. If its a case where the officials named waste money by trying to implement bad decisions that have their roots above their heads (evoting, decentralisation), I would have an issue with it.

The fact that it is a politician from a failed govt. still in denial making the point that others are sometimes to blame set my teeth on edge.

Fulton Crown wrote: »

What pisses people off - me included - is the amount of simply staggering waste that is being uncovered - togetther with the unbridled hubris and sheer inneficiency at places like Fas - and nobody appears to be responsible or sanctioned.

I'd like to see people pay for their incompetence also but I don't think the media is a good mechanism to do that unless there is corruption/potential criminality involved. The media should report more on what is going on in the public sector (and should be enabled to do that by access to information, protection for whistleblowers etc) but I do not think people are that interested anyway...The level of interest in/outrage about this sort of thing has increased at the moment but I don't think it will last tbh.

flutered

that smarmey minister for europe, what the hell do we need a minister for europe to do, i admit his garda driver delivers him to a private club where he has a swim every morning w.t.f. can not the cork bhoy martin listen when our masters in brussels tell us what to do, and deliver it the goverment.

Fulton Crown

fly_agaric wrote: »

You're right but unfortunately it becomes harder to get people lower down to do the correct thing (in this case exercise some probity while handling the public's money) when they know the ministers & "friends" have their heads in the trough snuffing up all the goodies they can get.




When you were saying the media should report on officials involved in "waste" I thought that was what you meant. If it is something specific like the (mis)use of monies in the skill fund or FAS budgets I would not have a problem with that. If its a case where the officials named waste money by trying to implement bad decisions that have their roots above their heads (evoting, decentralisation), I would have an issue with it.

The fact that it is a politician from a failed govt. still in denial making the point that others are sometimes to blame set my teeth on edge.



I'd like to see people pay for their incompetence also but I don't think the media is a good mechanism to do that unless there is corruption/potential criminality involved. The media should report more on what is going on in the public sector (and should be enabled to do that by access to information, protection for whistleblowers etc) but I do not think people are that interested anyway...The level of interest in/outrage about this sort of thing has increased at the moment but I don't think it will last tbh.

yes I agree with most of you post...we are basically on the same page.

The officials charged with implementing the E-Voting are not to blame - the Ministers are responsible for that.

Similiary with decentralisation - an objective not without merit - I can imagine the lobbying from on high to get a peice of the action for their own patch made the thing into the farce that it became.

Take the incinerator though - we are playing for big buck stakes here and John Q Taxpayer stands to loose a lot of chips.

Yet we know very little about the "players" that are playing with our money !

I am saying that if John Q takes a beating on this one - the game should be closely analysed and maybe some players be made to cash in their chips...permanently.