Accident, Offending Driver non resident with no Insurance

mcnallg

Hi All

My girlfriend was involved in a bit of a fender bender today and I wanted to get your thoughts on the scenario.

Basically, she was in her work car park when a Van reversed into her causing €330 damage to her grill, bumper, paintwork etc.

They guy who did it got out and apologised, admitted fault etc. However turns out he had no insurance on the van he was driving (belonging to his boss, carpentry company), and said he would pay for the damage.

My girlfriend called the gards etc, and they said not to worry if he was admitting fault and she had his details (name, number, license plate & company name) No witnesses thou..

So off she went to get an estimate which was €330. Then she calls the guy, who says that he wasnt going to pay that, that he lived in Armagh, and that he could have fixed it himself for €40. He offered €200, which was obviously turned down because the estimate was for €330.

She then went to the Garda station, where the Gard basically told her that it wouldnt be worth pursuing for €330. The whole thing is a bit hard to stomach,

A guy driving without insurance, causes an accident, and then Garda basically says theyre going to do nothing about it, I dont think that it could possibly as simple as this.

Anyone got any thoughts or suggestions? My first thought was to go over this Garda's head. No way me or you would get away with driving without insurance scot free! Also if the guy refuses to pay, is there no other way to claim this €330 without legal action, which to be fair, probably be wouldnt be worth pursuing ( i could be wrong about this)

Let me know what you guys think. Thanks!!

HarryPotter41

Unless the Gardai attended the scene of the accident then there is nothing they can do, the law provides that they have to see the person committ the offence, in this case driving without insurance, to be able to pursue the matter in any way, shape or form. They can't go on the basis of hearsay.

Mitch Connor

small claims court if need be.

Would also be worth getting on to the company he works for, if they are having an uninsured driver drive their van, it may be in their interest to get it sorted without fuss.

Jarren

what about those guys
http://www.mibi.ie/uninsured-unidentifi.html

omb0wyn5ehpij9

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Would also be worth getting on to the company he works for, if they are having an uninsured driver drive their van, it may be in their interest to get it sorted without fuss.

Was about to say the same. Get onto his company and see what they say. If they play hardball, maybe a suggestion of a bit of bad publicity for the company over the whole incident may persuade them

mcnallg

Thanks for the reply's guys.

Yeah i know it may have been a mistake not to get the Gardai down to do an accident report, but my understanding was they said that there wasnt a need for them to do that (could be wrong)

I was thinking about the company approach alright, but, If its a small carpentry firm, which i think it is, they are probably equally as likely to tell us where to go. Not sure what kind of bad publicity would affect guys like that either, except for maybe posting on differnt places online etc.

Has anyone gone through MIBI? Seems to me they'd need the accident report for the Gardai to pursue a claim like that..?

HarryPotter41

mcnallg wrote: »

Thanks for the reply's guys.

Yeah i know it may have been a mistake not to get the Gardai down to do an accident report, but my understanding was they said that there wasnt a need for them to do that (could be wrong)

They hate traffic accidents cos they attend something like 25000 of them a year and its a huge waste of resources, but in a situation like this its gives you a legal basis for dealing with the uninsured driver.

bijapos

Doesn't matter if the driver himself was insured, main thing is the van is insured or the company is.

Get the insurance details off the van, contact your own insurance company and let them take it from there.

Either way inform your own insurance company right now about what happened.

Declan1

Did he admit not having insurance?

For info, UK reg vehicles don't display an insurance disk.

knird evol

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

Unless the Gardai attended the scene of the accident then there is nothing they can do, the law provides that they have to see the person committ the offence, in this case driving without insurance, to be able to pursue the matter in any way, shape or form. They can't go on the basis of hearsay.

thats a load of crap. there is an alleged driving without insurance & non reporting of acc. it must be investigated. there may be cctv, there may be witnesses, did driver has to be interviewed, there maybe paint from van on her car. all these questions will be answered at the end of an investigation.

ks652

Take the €200 and cut your losses.

Unless you want this on your mind and a big issue in your life close a book on it now.

Dealing with an uninsured driver claim is near impossible. 10-12 months is what you will be waiting for a settlement.

Mind you if it was only €330 of a estimate it could not have been too bad.

Gardai should be called to any accident regardless. Its there job and thats what WE pay them for.

Gumbo

ks652 wrote: »

Gardai should be called to any accident regardless. Its there job and thats what WE pay them for.

ehh, no thats not why YOU pay them :rolleyes:
they only have to attend the scene if there is an injured party.

at the time of the accident the victim did not know that the driver was uninsured going by the OP, so at the time there would of been no reason for them to attend the scene, its a civil matter.

if the victim has the insurance details of the van, then simply contact them and tell them you wish to make a claim.

ks652

"they only have to attend the scene if there is an injured party."


^^^In that case what happens if they is a dispute of fault? Drunk Driver? Uninsured Driver?

Nonsense.

TouchingVirus

The Gardai also call out to facilitate the exchanging of details too should there be a problem with that.

Random

the small claims court have nothing to do with this process, unless i've missed something.

if the other driver is not insured and you have comp insurance then you will be claiming off your own insurance. you will have to pay your excess. it will not effect your own insurance / renewal.

if you only have tpft then you will have to go through the mibi for the whole claim.

you can claim your excess back from the mibi as an "uninsured loss".

this assumes you have the reg of the vehicle that hit you.

www.mibi.ie should help you out to confirm the process as suggested too.

Voodoomelon

There's a lot of confusion and guessing here, any Gardai want to chime in?

unkel

kceire wrote: »

ehh, no thats not why YOU pay them :rolleyes:
they only have to attend the scene if there is an injured party.

at the time of the accident the victim did not know that the driver was uninsured going by the OP, so at the time there would of been no reason for them to attend the scene, its a civil matter.

if the victim has the insurance details of the van, then simply contact them and tell them you wish to make a claim.

+1

There is no reason why the Gardai would get involved here seeing as there are no injuries and the contact details between the parties have been exchanged. Even when the guilty party refuses to pay, it's a civil matter, not a criminal one. It would be much better if the Gardai did not have to spend any time on these situations!

VinnyTGM

Was he speeding, if not then this is not a matter for the Gardai.
The Gardai only deal with speeding offences now, murder, burglary, rape along with uninsured drivers can wait.

dunsandin

Estimate is €330, offer is €200? Take the €200 and move on. If you waste more hours of your life fretting about this... well anyway, my advice, move on. Feel free to tell me to stick my advice, but in the long run, this is minor stuff you are sweating.

CiniO

unkel wrote: »

+1

There is no reason why the Gardai would get involved here seeing as there are no injuries and the contact details between the parties have been exchanged.

Hmm. If there is reason for Garda to attend when someone is speeding, illegally parking, crossing through the red light, etc, why not here?

All above are traffic offences which attract penalties and points.

I actually can't understand why causing a crash (even minor) is not treated as an offence, and doesn't attract penalty and points...

This is bit radiculous.
One driver can be doing 55 in 50 zone every day, and after 6 times he'll get caught he's loosing his license, becuase he'll exceed 12 points.
While other driver crashed into other cars, and can he's doesn't deserve points or penalty?
Stupid.

CiniO

mcnallg wrote: »

So off she went to get an estimate which was €330.

Can you explain me how this works?
Where did she go to get this estimate? Is this for free, or garages charge you for it? Did she get in on a piece of paper where it states exactly the cost of each part? Would such estimate be worth anything for insurance company?

I'm interested because I'll also have to get one.

HarryPotter41

knird evol wrote: »

thats a load of crap. there is an alleged driving without insurance & non reporting of acc. it must be investigated. there may be cctv, there may be witnesses, did driver has to be interviewed, there maybe paint from van on her car. all these questions will be answered at the end of an investigation.

The driver made an agreement with the driver of the other vehicle at the scene. Therefore absolutely no obligation upon the gardai as they were not called to the scene. Why te a car for paint when the driver seems to be quite willing to admit that he ran into it in the first place? Seems a bit too much CSI. There is no dispute over the accident happening, the dispute is over the amount the driver of the van is willing to pay for the damage. An allegation of no insurance cannot be pursued without absolute proof that the driver was in charge of a vehicle while uninsured. Would be thrown out of court for lack of evidence.

And just on a point of information, the non reporting of an accident only apllies where someone hits someone elses car and just drives off. This didn't happen here so no need for the accident to be reported.

HarryPotter41

CiniO wrote: »

Hmm. If there is reason for Garda to attend when someone is speeding, illegally parking, crossing through the red light, etc, why not here?

All above are traffic offences which attract penalties and points.

I actually can't understand why causing a crash (even minor) is not treated as an offence, and doesn't attract penalty and points...

This is bit radiculous.
One driver can be doing 55 in 50 zone every day, and after 6 times he'll get caught he's loosing his license, becuase he'll exceed 12 points.
While other driver crashed into other cars, and can he's doesn't deserve points or penalty?
Stupid.

Gardai will attend the scene of an accident when they are called at the time of the accident, they obviously were not informed of this until after the fact. It was a fender bender in a car park, theres a reason they are called accidents. No intent involved, thats why people don't get penalty points every time they crash when they are not actually doing anything in breach of the road traffic act.

CiniO

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

Gardai will attend the scene of an accident when they are called at the time of the accident, they obviously were not informed of this until after the fact. It was a fender bender in a car park, theres a reason they are called accidents. No intent involved, thats why people don't get penalty points every time they crash when they are not actually doing anything in breach of the road traffic act.

I totally disagree.
Show me where is it stated, that penalty points are only supposed to be issued for intentional offences?

When someone is speeding, it really doesn't matter if he/she done it intentionally, or just forgot to look at the speedometer or missed the speed limit sign. No matter for the reason he/she deserves penalty.
The same with traffic lights. Would you say if someone misses red light by accident, and goes through, he doesn't deserve penalty for it? Because he didn't do it intentionally.

I find it strange, that some who is speeding f.e by 5km/h doing no harm to anyone might be penalized, but someone who crashed into my car, causing very big inconvieniece for me, is not considered as someone who actually committed an offence.

hucklebuck

I am an insurance bod by profession. You should make a quick call to Hussey Fraser:

http://www.husseyfraser.ie/

They are great, they handle claims where you are not at fault for free and get their costs off the third party insurer, this should fall with the vans insurance company. They will be able to tell you straight away if they can help.

Hopefully they can and it's just a case of sitting back and letting them chase the third party, see if they can get you some money for the inconvenience, doesn't always work but worth a go throught a solicitor.

Good Luck

bladebrew

im starting to lose faith in the system here:(

i would certainly get onto the company, big or small it dosent matter, having someone driving around with no insurance is very serious,

it seems to be a case here if you dont get caught its ok,

highlydebased

Mitch Connor wrote: »

small claims court if need be.

Would also be worth getting on to the company he works for, if they are having an uninsured driver drive their van, it may be in their interest to get it sorted without fuss.

Small claims court only deal with consumer issues.

slimjimmc

CiniO wrote: »

I totally disagree.
Show me where is it stated, that penalty points are only supposed to be issued for intentional offences?

When someone is speeding, it really doesn't matter if he/she done it intentionally, or just forgot to look at the speedometer or missed the speed limit sign. No matter for the reason he/she deserves penalty.
The same with traffic lights. Would you say if someone misses red light by accident, and goes through, he doesn't deserve penalty for it? Because he didn't do it intentionally.

I find it strange, that some who is speeding f.e by 5km/h doing no harm to anyone might be penalized, but someone who crashed into my car, causing very big inconvieniece for me, is not considered as someone who actually committed an offence.

Which modern democratic countries class minor fender benders as traffic offences? I can't think of any. It's common enough that minor collisions are treated as civil loss.
Even in the great state of New York (where policing would be consider a lot stricter than here) you're only required to contact police if someone is injured or killed, or in the event of hit-and-run or no details given.
http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/dmvfaqs.htm#accident

CiniO

slimjimmc wrote: »

Which modern democratic countries class minor fender benders as traffic offences? I can't think of any. It's common enough that minor collisions are treated as civil loss.
Even in the great state of New York (where policing would be consider a lot stricter than here) you're only required to contact police if someone is injured or killed, or in the event of hit-and-run or no details given.
http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/dmvfaqs.htm#accident

That's OK. No one says about requirement to call a garda for every parking scratch.
Anyway so, if someone destroys someone else's property, it should be treated as an offence. And if spotted by garda, it should attract penalty points.

I can think of at least a few countries in Europe, where causing even a minor collision, is treated as an offence, and attracts penalty points.

Vertakill

An uninsured Czech biker with no tax or VRT for his bike ran into the back of me before.
I went through my insurance company, who paid for my repair straight away and then they billed the MIBI for it.
I temporarily lost my NCB while the situation was being resolved but once my insurance company had been fully reimbursed by the MIBI, my NCB was reinstated.

It took absolutely ages for all of it to get sorted though and in the mean time, my insurance ran out and I, temporarily, now had 0 NCB so I was charged through the roof to renew it and then they reimbursed me the difference once they got their money from the MIBI.

Complete pain in the ar$e from start to finish.


Garda were made aware of the fact the guy had no insurance or tax/vrt and they didn't do anything about it.

Makes me wonder what the actual point behind paying for extortionate insurance when other people aren't paying a penny right in front of the Gardai's nose and getting away with it.

Sickening.

TheUsual

Some people who have never had an accident make a bigger deal out of things when something like this happens.

330 euro ... Jesus Iwould nearly pay you that myself just for your peace of mind.
Imagine the stress and endless conversations you have had about about this 330 Euro. How much has your life been shortened by it from blood pressure and lack of sleep or making a big deal out of a minor incident ... Your internet and text conversations proably cost the same as the actual accident. Nobody is hurt and plastic and paint can be replaced.
And for something so forgettable - compared with the loss of a hand or leg.

Minor traffic incident , no injuries ... I agree with the Gardaí.

Live4Ever

I had a similar incident where a polish guy was driving along and next thing a bed came flying out of his trailer and straight for me. Thankfully it hit my bumper, at once stage it was mid air and coming for the windscreen. I reckon I would be a dead man if it hit the windscreen.

Anyway I took all his details and agreed to call him with a price. Now the bumper was fcuked so it needed replacement and a light was cracked. Anyway once he found out it would cost a bit he wouldnt answer the phone etc.

So I went to the gardai told them the situation etc. They checked the reg and it was owned by some waste management company. They called around to the business, and I also rang them. The owner was pissed at his driver as he had not even told he what happened. Anyway he agreed to pay damages no problems.

Probably worth your while ringing the company who owned the van and see can you get your money from them. Also maybe you just spoke with a cnut of a guard who couldnt have been arsed pursuing the matter. Hope this helps.

HarryPotter41

CiniO wrote: »

That's OK. No one says about requirement to call a garda for every parking scratch.
Anyway so, if someone destroys someone else's property, it should be treated as an offence. And if spotted by garda, it should attract penalty points.

I can think of at least a few countries in Europe, where causing even a minor collision, is treated as an offence, and attracts penalty points.

To have any offence for damaging property it is classified as criminal damage, proof for criminal damage is intent. And as for someone speeding or going through a red light they are major traffic issues and is considered driving without due care and attention. You are in control of a car doing enough speed to kill so deservedly you get penalty points for those offences. Your attitude towards speeding and red lights suggests you may be a bit of a hazard on the road.

Victor

mcnallg wrote: »

she was in her work car park when a Van reversed into her

Does the van owner have a commercial relationship with her employer? It could be used as a pressure point.

Alternatively, find out who the van owner's insurers are and make a claim.

RoundyMooney

Some of you lads are very blase about this, considering that you and I will end up paying the piper for Pawel's dishonesty (or in other instances, Paddy's).

This isn't a reflection on the OP, he deserves to be sorted, but why shouldn't the guilty party be pursued?

I shouldn't be surprised at the gardai and the legislature's inability to sort this, VRT doesn't apply to some demographics, so why should valid insurance?

bladebrew

even if the gardai got a number and rang the company it would be helpful, on road wars etc, an uninsured drivier gets told to walk home, their car is seized and not given back until someone insured on the vehichle turns up,
in ireland they dont do anything:eek:

someone mentioned a garda being a witness, i managed to get a conviction without a garda being anywhere nearby, it was me who decided to ring them, then the garda wasnt even in court on he day

Crazy Taxi

ks652 wrote: »

"they only have to attend the scene if there is an injured party."


^^^In that case what happens if they is a dispute of fault? Drunk Driver? Uninsured Driver?

Nonsense.

I'm afraid you're wrong, Gardai do not have to attend every traffic accident and 9 times out of ten they will refuse to attend if there is nobody injured.

dr ro

tell the other driver you'll let it go for 300. or 250. haggle a bit. but you should let it go. insurance claim for such a small amount is more hassle than it's worth. insurance companies will look for a garda report if there's to be a claim made. glad to see nobody acknowledged the insurance ad. there're half the problem

HarryPotter41

Crazy Taxi wrote: »

I'm afraid you're wrong, Gardai do not have to attend every traffic accident and 9 times out of ten they will refuse to attend if there is nobody injured.

They will attend in the vast majority of cases once contacted, the only reason they won't is because nobody is available

CiniO

Crazy Taxi wrote: »

I'm afraid you're wrong, Gardai do not have to attend every traffic accident and 9 times out of ten they will refuse to attend if there is nobody injured.

Doesn't make any sense to me.
Even if no one is injured, and it's only property damage, why would they refuse to attend.

Let's say someone crashes into my car. But he's seems a bit not trustworthy for me, and I doubt if he will state exactly what happened, just to avoid paying for damage caused to me.
Why then I shouldn't be entitled to have Garda attend a scene, and make some notes, investigate traces, etc...

I know no one is injured, but my property was damaged, and I might want garda report to make sure things are clear.

If someone broke into your house, and caused a damage say 300euro (150euros broken window + 150euros cash missing from the house) would you not bother calling the guards, as no one is injured, and it's just a lose in property?

CiniO

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

To have any offence for damaging property it is classified as criminal damage, proof for criminal damage is intent.

OK. I understand so it can't be used here, as almost all accidents are not intentional.

And as for someone speeding or going through a red light they are major traffic issues and is considered driving without due care and attention.

OK. But don't tell me if someone crashed into my bumper, or breaks my mirror by going in the middle of the narrow road is not driving without due care or attention.
Accident almost always happen because someone is not obeying the rules of the road.
As in the example with the red light. If you go through the red light, and nothing happens, then you might get a penalty and penalty points.
But if you go through red light, and crash into someone driving through green, is it nothing, and it's non of the businness of Garda?
Doesn't make sense to me.

Your attitude towards speeding and red lights suggests you may be a bit of a hazard on the road.

Me?
What's my attitude? I just showed examples.

HarryPotter41

CiniO wrote: »

Doesn't make any sense to me.
Even if no one is injured, and it's only property damage, why would they refuse to attend.

Let's say someone crashes into my car. But he's seems a bit not trustworthy for me, and I doubt if he will state exactly what happened, just to avoid paying for damage caused to me.
Why then I shouldn't be entitled to have Garda attend a scene, and make some notes, investigate traces, etc...

I know no one is injured, but my property was damaged, and I might want garda report to make sure things are clear.

If someone broke into your house, and caused a damage say 300euro (150euros broken window + 150euros cash missing from the house) would you not bother calling the guards, as no one is injured, and it's just a lose in property?

Slight difference as one is trespassing with the intention to committ a criminal offence with criminal damage thrown in. The other is a van reversing into a car in a car park. Maybe focus a bit and reality may kick in.

As for driving through a red light in both your cases they would have to be witnessed by the Garda. In a traffic accident unless there are independent witnesses ( extremely rare ) to say who ran the light there is nothing they can do. Would you like to get points on your licence just because someone else said you did something wrong?

CiniO

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

Slight difference as one is trespassing with the intention to committ a criminal offence with criminal damage thrown in. The other is a van reversing into a car in a car park. Maybe focus a bit and reality may kick in.

To be honest it doesn't make any difference for me, if I loose 300 euros by burglary, or loose 300euros by broken bumper in my car.
But it seems I'm alone in my opinion. Obviously first one is a criminal act, and second one is just not a big deal.
Strange, that overall effect for me is the same.

As for driving through a red light in both your cases they would have to be witnessed by the Garda. In a traffic accident unless there are independent witnesses ( extremely rare ) to say who ran the light there is nothing they can do. Would you like to get points on your licence just because someone else said you did something wrong?

If I really did - why not.
On junctions very ofter there are cctv cameras. Why Garda can't check them to see who was on red light, and who was on green.
What about other kind of accidents.
In case on head on crash on narrow road. Why can't they come maybe just to take a look at tyre traces after braking on the surface, to see who was at fault?

guil

CiniO wrote: »

Doesn't make any sense to me.
Even if no one is injured, and it's only property damage, why would they refuse to attend.

Let's say someone crashes into my car. But he's seems a bit not trustworthy for me, and I doubt if he will state exactly what happened, just to avoid paying for damage caused to me.
Why then I shouldn't be entitled to have Garda attend a scene, and make some notes, investigate traces, etc...

I know no one is injured, but my property was damaged, and I might want garda report to make sure things are clear.

If someone broke into your house, and caused a damage say 300euro (150euros broken window + 150euros cash missing from the house) would you not bother calling the guards, as no one is injured, and it's just a lose in property?

if a guard didnt see it how do ya expect them to say who was at fault, sometimes it might be clear who was in the wrong but they still cant say

CiniO

guil wrote: »

if a guard didnt see it how do ya expect them to say who was at fault, sometimes it might be clear who was in the wrong but they still cant say

I always though that that's what police force is for. To investigate and find out what happened.
But obviously in Ireland it doesn't work that way.

But still - it doesn't make sense.

If there was a burglary in local shop, and guards didn't see it - would they drop the whole case, because they didn't see it so they can't say. Nonsense.
They should take some finger prints, look for witnesses, maybe check CCTV, etc...
And they would. Even if the burglary was only for 100 euros.

But seems that when someone's vehicle was damaged to 2000euros, they won't even try to do anything about it.

I'm really shocked.

guil

thats what insurance companies and solicitors are for

CiniO

guil wrote: »

thats what insurance companies and solicitors are for

I always thought, that insurance companies are there to pay for the damage, and solicitors are to represent you in the court.

But neither of them are not going to come to the scene of accident.
And only there there might be traces which show who actually was at fault.

Sometimes I miss my home country (Poland).
Where even in the case of minor accident, you always can call the police, and they will come (sooner or later) do some small investigation, look at traces, listen to witnesses, and they will form the opinion who was at fault. If both participant agree with their opinion, then you just go to insurance company to claim. If they don't then case goes to the court.

guil

yeah but the insurance company will investigate the claim

HarryPotter41

CiniO wrote: »

I always though that that's what police force is for. To investigate and find out what happened.
But obviously in Ireland it doesn't work that way.

But still - it doesn't make sense.

If there was a burglary in local shop, and guards didn't see it - would they drop the whole case, because they didn't see it so they can't say. Nonsense.
They should take some finger prints, look for witnesses, maybe check CCTV, etc...
And they would. Even if the burglary was only for 100 euros.

But seems that when someone's vehicle was damaged to 2000euros, they won't even try to do anything about it.

I'm really shocked.

To compare a burglary ( the invasion of someones home and security ) with a prang between two cars borders on the ridiculous.

HarryPotter41

CiniO wrote: »

I always thought, that insurance companies are there to pay for the damage, and solicitors are to represent you in the court.

But neither of them are not going to come to the scene of accident.
And only there there might be traces which show who actually was at fault.

Sometimes I miss my home country (Poland).
Where even in the case of minor accident, you always can call the police, and they will come (sooner or later) do some small investigation, look at traces, listen to witnesses, and they will form the opinion who was at fault. If both participant agree with their opinion, then you just go to insurance company to claim. If they don't then case goes to the court.

So the end result is the exact same as here, and for your information, because I work with thyem, Gardai attend the scene of 99% of traffic accidents they are called to, quite a lot are just reported at the station and they can't be expectd to make a call on it. They generally will say who is at fault, a lot of the time the fault is the road or the driving of both parties and its left to a civil claim between both parties. The insurance companies sort it out. Where road traffic offences are concerned the Superintendent makes the call on prosecution. So basically in Poland the insurance comapnies sort it out, in Ireland the insurance companies sort it out.