Advice On Tackling Racism

LegacyUser

I don't live in Ireland anymore, I live in Northern England at the moment, having moved from Scotland a few months ago.

I started going to this Drama group, it's got about 10 members currently rehearsing for a play we're all doing in November, and there's loads of other members and backstage hands who come in when needed and all that. In terms of an amateur group it's pretty big and has a massive membership.

I didn't know whether it was going to be a problem from the start, since they hold weekly meetings in a Church of England Church, in the hall at the back. It's the kind of place where mostly everyone is a little older then me and some of the older members have grown up in a comfortable state of wealth and from a prominent English background.

When I started in the drama there were a few jibes at me, trivial stuff really, they'd ask if I was coming from a drink after rehearsal and whenever I refused they'd be all shocked and someone would say "but you're Irish, you have to drink..." and when I'd explain I didn't drink, and go with them for their company, I'd get "no, no...you have to have a Guinness, you can't have a Pepsi, Irish people drink Guinness..."

Now, in fairness, this was all water off a duck's back because you learn to deal with a few jibes and mostly people don't really treat you as any different in the UK...well, at least me personally...and I don't really feel as if I ever have to constantly separate myself and remind myself I'm an Irishman etc....

But I would say that I'm someone who takes great pride in their culture, their history, and their background. I loved History at school and as a result I read as much as I could in college and beyond school about Northern Ireland, 1916, Home Rule and everything else they teach you.

The biggest problem seems to be the guy in charge. He seems to have a certain view of Irish people, and he seems to be racist, without knowing it. My girlfriend was a part of the club and she actually left a few months back but wouldn't tell me why. When I pressed her on it, thinking that someone had said something to her, she said she couldn't take their racism. I hadn't heard anything really really offensive, before last night...

Last night, he explained a trip to Ireland in 2000....now, bear in mind that year, because that's going to be important...and this is what he said

"I was driving along in the sunny South, rabbits in the fields and a rainbow in the sky, and then we crossed into the North. I swear, at that point, the radio disappeared off the band and I lost all signal, the roads became slightly bumpier and there was an overcast shadow in the sky. Suddenly, I had helicopters flying above me, armoured vehicles and tanks everywhere, bloody rifle men with guns and people watching me all the time because I was in an English reg car. I went in to buy a drink from a shop and the locals ran me out when I answered I wasn't Catholic..."

When I heard that, I was very upset, and argued the point with him that that was bull****...and even during the heights of troubles in Northern Ireland, this seemed very unlikely...this man is in his mid 30's and swears of the experience he received when he visited Ireland in 2000. I tried to explain the peace process and the fact that this wasn't possible but it feel on deaf ears. He's now frightened the group, and they think this is what Ireland...especially the North is like, one woman in her 50's who was planning to go in about two weeks time is now considering cancelling her holiday on the basis of his argument....

How do I approach this subject with him, what would people here do? Seriously, I cannot continue to be a part of a club where this guy treats my homeland as a warzone and my countrymen as drunken idiots....the fact is the entire group seems to know nothing...nothing about Ireland and it's people and it would just take a short internet search to educate themselves a little.

It's not as if I'm from somewhere in South Africa like Pretoria where they may never have heard of it in their lives....I was born "next door" - but if someone I knew was from Pretoria, I'd just google it....find out a little more about their homeland....if they ever mentioned it....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretoria

I've never experienced this before, because in Scotland I generally found people to either know something about Ireland or not just make assumptions, they might ask first before they made a generalisation without the chance of offence.

Esoteric_

I don't really see what was racist about the comment he made about going up the North. My sister was run out of a shop for being from Dublin when she went up to the North for a weekend with her (northern) boyfriend. It does happen. Just 'cause you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it's racism when a person claims it's happened to them.

belongtojazz

I agree with you that this is a racist view of Northern Ireland and a generalised view of Irish people.

Maybe you could find a movie or youtube clip that gives a broad and unbiased view and ask if you could do a screening sometime so they can see the real Ireland. Also you could also take the leader to one side and have a chat explaining how his views are upsetting you and that they are not an accurate reflection of your home.

It is of course possible to have a bad holiday anywhere but he should not be tarring an entire country and it's people on one negative holiday 10 years ago. Ireland has changed a great deal over the years and it is possible his story is true (well obviously not the helicopters and people watching his car, that smacks of paranoia to me ) but it is much more common for people to have a positive break here.

LittleBook

The man's story is clearly embellished (dramatic licence perhaps) but there's no denying that (in the past) something shifted driving from the South to the North so you can't dismiss his experience completely.

I remember the first time I'd crossed the border I found the checkpoint, the soldiers, barbed wire etc. very ominous and unsettling.

And there was a thread on Boards a few months back where people discussed their experiences of being from the South and visiting the North and it wasn't pretty reading.

Yes, a lot has changed over the past 10 years but to tell this man his experience was "bullsh*t", even if it was embellished, is not correct and it seems as if your reaction was a little over the top ... my response would have been more on the lines of "Well a lot's changed in the past ten years, do you not read the papers mate? ".

And remember, if you're dealing with older people their impression can be a bit more entrenched than with younger people. You're in the group, if you enjoy it stay and change their minds slowly but surely.

But if you're dealing with people who are stupid enough to consider cancelling a holiday because of one story they heard that occurred 10 years ago, I wouldn't be bothered with them. What exactly happened to your girlfriend?

Honestly, I've lived abroad for many years this is not as bad as it gets. Every country has a stereotype that other countries pick up on and use.

mikemac

Well the first time I was in NI was 2002, got the bus from Sligo to Enniskillen and was a bit shocked/surprised to meet a British army checkpoint, the driver was asked a few questions, I didn't hear what they asked but I did see sthe soldiers take up positions on all sides of the bus. Probably some standard procedure they have when a vehicle is stopped.

And when I lived in East Belfast, my landlord pointed out the pubs I shouldn't go into, me and my bogger midlands accent :P
Probably nothing would have happened but why take a chance.

The story is embellished but it could have an element of truth.

Now I'm not saying over 30 is an older generation
But older people do have a set view, sure many call us the "Free State"

I suppose maybe encourage him to take a weekend break with his wife, flights are cheap, there is even the ferry.

Major Lovechild

Back the mid 90's I was on holiday in Rhodes with my girlfriend. We met a lovely couple who also went on coach tour with us and we got along famously.
They were a little older than us and she was a secondary school teacher and he was a fireman both living and working in Buckinghamshire in England.

When the teacher asked my girlfriend and I where we were from we told her that we were Irish. They were shocked and we didn't understand why at first but then the fireman asked whether we were from Northern Ireland or "Southern" Ireland. Now I thought that our accents would have been a dead give-away but we explained that we were from Co. Kildare in the "South"

She then asked if we had any trouble getting out.

When we asked what she meant they explained that they had always assumed that "Southern" Ireland was a war zone. The thought that Northern Ireland was under control because there were British Soldiers there. I thought they were taking the piss at first but it became quite clear that this lovely couple were dead serious and that they imagined that flights out of Dublin would be accompanied by a barrage of anti-aircraft fire.
I kid you not! After we had finished laughing we told them straight what the situation was like in The Republic of Ireland.
These two 30-something adults who were holding down responsible jobs in secondary education and fire services were astonishingly ignorant about Ireland - the next door neighbour. To this day I shake my head when I think about it.

Motley Crue

Major Lovechild wrote: »

These two 30-something adults who were holding down responsible jobs in secondary education and fire services were astonishingly ignorant about Ireland - the next door neighbour. To this day I shake my head when I think about it.

Thank you. That is pretty much what happened to myself and the missus...it was the same attitude. Kinda like this poster ELB, I've experienced this kind of ignorance too

I remember a girl I worked with in a previous job, I think she was originally from Northern Scotland and had come to Uni where I worked (this was in London), and she was about 17, asked me one evening if the shop in which we worked took Irish Money.

I asked her what she was talking about and she handed me a Northern Irish bank note that she took from a customer (she was worried she'd done something wrong) I said that this was Sterling currency and I said that besides there was no such thing anymore because Ireland was a part of the Euro.

The girl then turned to me, and as clear as day, asked why it wasn't Irish if it had Ireland written on it?

And I said because it's not from the South, you know, the Republic?

And then, she said,

but isn't it all the same, you know, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland...we live in the UK...and then you've got Northern Ireland next to us....

My heart sank...and I said to her, "you know there is also the South?" And she claimed then to have NEVER KNOWN that Northern Ireland wasn't just the full name for the island of Ireland and that it was in fact only a reference to a small part of Ireland in the North. Her lack of geography also made me cry.

ABajaninCork

Blimey - I'm from London, but know a little bit about Ireland, having lived here for a couple of years...

But I ALWAYS knew the difference between the North and South of the island. Mind you, I'm still not very good at the different accents, but I'm getting there!!

What always annoys me when trying to get things delivered to Cork, I'm always asked if that's in Northern Ireland even though I always tell them it's the REPUBLIC!!

Once, I was even asked where Ireland was:eek::eek::eek: - I kid you not!!

Distorted

EmmettLBrown wrote: »

It's the kind of place where mostly everyone is a little older then me and some of the older members have grown up in a comfortable state of wealth and from a prominent English background.

I hadn't heard anything really really offensive, before last night...

Last night, he explained a trip to Ireland in 2000....now, bear in mind that year, because that's going to be important...and this is what he said

"I was driving along in the sunny South, rabbits in the fields and a rainbow in the sky, and then we crossed into the North. I swear, at that point, the radio disappeared off the band and I lost all signal, the roads became slightly bumpier and there was an overcast shadow in the sky. Suddenly, I had helicopters flying above me, armoured vehicles and tanks everywhere, bloody rifle men with guns and people watching me all the time because I was in an English reg car. I went in to buy a drink from a shop and the locals ran me out when I answered I wasn't Catholic..."

When I heard that, I was very upset, and argued the point with him that that was bull****...and even during the heights of troubles in Northern Ireland, this seemed very unlikely...this man is in his mid 30's and swears of the experience he received when he visited Ireland in 2000. I tried to explain the peace process and the fact that this wasn't possible but it feel on deaf ears. He's now frightened the group, and they think this is what Ireland...especially the North is like, one woman in her 50's who was planning to go in about two weeks time is now considering cancelling her holiday on the basis of his argument....

How do I approach this subject with him, what would people here do? Seriously, I cannot continue to be a part of a club where this guy treats my homeland as a warzone and my countrymen as drunken idiots....the fact is the entire group seems to know nothing...nothing about Ireland and it's people and it would just take a short internet search to educate themselves a little.


I've never experienced this before, because in Scotland I generally found people to either know something about Ireland or not just make assumptions, they might ask first before they made a generalisation without the chance of offence.

*whispers* but it was part of a warzone until very recently. Like it or not, people remember as part of recent history watching fatal bombings on the news every night, and perhaps know someone or a relative of someone who lost a life. You cannot wipe people's memories, but what you can do is set a good example to them of someone from that area, by not reacting over-emotionally and keeping a good humour, and making them see you for something else. The way to fit in is to not be too hung up on nationality. And being arguemenatative probably isn't the best way to do that.

OTOH it could just be that these are a particularly bigotted small minded group of people, in which case spending any time with them would be a torture for anyone. Although I thought your first paragraph, where you assume their background, was almost the same sort of attitude you complain of yourself. You get wealthy people from all over. Are these people all titled or something? Or do they just have well paid jobs and reasonably nice lives as a result.

Can I just say to your point about Scotland is that its only in very recent years that Scotland has ceased to be less sectarian and racist about the Irish, possibly because of the large numbers of Irish that moved to Scotland in the past. But there are still plenty of pockets of prejudice. I'm Scottish, my great grandfather was from Ballymena and when we visited and drove through the outskirts of Belfast 5 years ago, I was pretty shocked at what I saw. Unless you've grown up with that sort of thing, it is pretty unusual.

And I dont' want to make gender based assumptions but a lot of the Northern Irish are hard drinkers. I don't think many would disagree with that.

Bottle_of_Smoke

When I heard that, I was very upset, and argued the point with him that that was bull****...and even during the heights of troubles in Northern Ireland, this seemed very unlikely...this man is in his mid 30's and swears of the experience he received when he visited Ireland in 2000. I tried to explain the peace process and the fact that this wasn't possible but it feel on deaf ears. He's now frightened the group, and they think this is what Ireland...especially the North is like, one woman in her 50's who was planning to go in about two weeks time is now considering cancelling her holiday on the basis of his argument....

I can't remember what year I went on a school trip to the north but it was certainly late 90s/early 00s(Possibly the time the foot and mouth scaer was on.) and there were soldiers with massive guns everywhere. The real IRA were active around then (even hitting Britain) so he may have been telling the truth.

With the bombs going off in the last year or two you're gonna have a hard time convincing people otherwise unfortunately.

You seem really oversensitive, tbh. The silly jibes about Guinness are just silly jibes. Irish people give way worse slagging than that. And as for his remark about NI, not it sounds like he was being a bit facetious and exaggerating, but he actually isn't all that far wrong. I take it you're not actually from the north? Because when I was at school, there were constantly helicopters flying overhead and armed soldiers patrolling the street outside. We used to get stopped on the school run in the morning and asked where we were going, by British soldiers. I can't tell you how many people have stopped short of spitting in my face after realising I wasn't the religion they thought I was. And this wasn't years and years ago, this was 1996-1998. I visited my family in NI throughout my childhood and I have many memories of flags being burned on the estate, seeing bombed buildings and being asked who I was and where I was from by tiny kids. The place was basically a warzone, for someone like me, coming from England. There are STILL bombs going off all over the place, hateful graffiti all over the walls etc. The guy really has a point. Just because it didn't happen to you doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Look, I'm well aware that a lot of British people are really ignorant about Ireland. But this is not racism in any way, shape or form. Firstly, the Irish are not a different race. And secondly, I wouldn't even call it xenophobia. Sounds like someone (understandably) found NI intimidating and is slagging you about it. If this is 'racism' to you, count yourself very, very lucky.

My English boyfriend was unaware that "Southern" Ireland wasn't part of the UK until he moved here. SERIOUSLY. He also said he was totally oblivious to the history, he just always assumed we were all British and was unaware of any occupation, rebellions, martyrs, uprisings, free states, what have yeh. He gets extremely agitated when I started explaining the history to him. He explained that his history classes in school had just completely skirted over the issues with Ireland, to the point where they were unaware of our independance. I asked him what he thought all the business with Northern Ireland and the peace process was then? "Religion and drugs!" he said.

That's my rant... though in my case educating my boyfriend to the history that had been conveniently omitted from his secondary school education, helped resolve an issue which could certainly have ended the relationship.

I agree that this guy seems to be biased against the Irish in an unfair way. His story is most likely a huge embellishment of his true experience. Though in fairness to the guy, two South African friends driving in Derry were asked "Is this Londonderry or Derry?" - innocently they just consulted their map, replied "Londonderry?" and we told to go to the petrol station across the road!

Distorted

OP - how much do you know about the history and culture of the North of England? The Danelaw? The mixture of different nationalities that eventually settled there? Ancient Britons? Why they speak a different accent from the rest of England? Or do you just assume them to have grown up in "a comfortable state of wealth and come from a prominent English background" - whatever that phrase actually means, because I've certainly no idea!

tenchi-fan

EmmettLBrown wrote: »

I was very upset, and argued the point with him that that was bull****...and even during the heights of troubles in Northern Ireland, this seemed very unlikely...this man is in his mid 30's and swears of the experience he received when he visited Ireland in 2000. I tried to explain the peace process

You have no idea how naive you sound. If his comments make you feel uncomfortable you should discuss it with him in private, but don't accuse him of bull****ting when he tells you about his experience.

The guy may have embellished his story a little, but it's probably true. One of my friends got lost in an area of Belfast in few years ago and went into a shop where he was told to "get the **** out" when the shopkeeper heard his accent.

And "I tried to explain the peace process" :rolleyes: seriously! You do realise two police officers were seriously injured in a bomb blast the other day in Northern Ireland?

He's probably old enough to have been scared by the IRA bombings of England when he was younger so naturally he'll have a biased view. I was in Australia and heard two English guys (around 20) planning the next stage of their trip.. Ireland. Except they decided it would be a bit safer to go to Northern Ireland because people in Southern Ireland might be hostile towards them because they're English. But, according to you there's a peace process so they have nothing to worry about!

vinylrules

I lived and worked in the outer fringes of London in the late 80s early 90s and I got a lot of that kind of stuff from some work colleagues. One guy in particular (who was my boss) was a real officer-class Home Counties type (his brother was going out with some minor member of the Royal family) When the Birmingham Six were released, he made a loud comment to the effect that 'they were guilty as hell and he'd put them up before a firing squad' etc etc.) I remember other workmates looking at me for a reaction and feeling slightly embarrased for me. But I dealt with it by largely ignoring it. In a strange way I kind of understood why some people would have been a bit anti-Irish - the IRA were still bombing the UK - in fact the Victoria Station bomb which killed at least one and injured quite a few, took place at the time. A lot of my workmates used Victoria stn daily, as I did. Eventually, the guy left me alone and over time we actually became quite good friends - I think he probably regretted his behaviour
My advice? Ignore it - he's probably trying to provoke a reaction. Eventually, you'll come out best in the situation. It's more ignorance and plain rudeness than racism.

Dr. Zeus

vinylrules wrote: »

I lived and worked in the outer fringes of London in the late 80s early 90s and I got a lot of that kind of stuff from some work colleagues. One guy in particular (who was my boss) was a real officer-class Home Counties type (his brother was going out with some minor member of the Royal family) When the Birmingham Six were released, he made a loud comment to the effect that 'they were guilty as hell and he'd put them up before a firing squad' etc etc.) I remember other workmates looking at me for a reaction and feeling slightly embarrased for me. But I dealt with it by largely ignoring it. In a strange way I kind of understood why some people would have been a bit anti-Irish - the IRA were still bombing the UK - in fact the Victoria Station bomb which killed at least one and injured quite a few, took place at the time. A lot of my workmates used Victoria stn daily, as I did. Eventually, the guy left me alone and over time we actually became quite good friends - I think he probably regretted his behaviour
My advice? Ignore it - he's probably trying to provoke a reaction. Eventually, you'll come out best in the situation. It's more ignorance and plain rudeness than racism.

Fully agree. Sounds like you handled your situation well. You are right about the IRA bombs going off or at least hoax threats. I had friends living in London and during a certain stage, practically every morning the tube was stopped for some IRA bomb threat. They would get the odd terrorist remark from a few but for the most part people were incredibly tolerant.

If Al-Queda or some other organisation were disrupting the DART every morning I don't think Irish people would be so tolerant.

I do agree that there is a certain ignorance about Ireland/Irish history but obviously the educational system is partly to blame. I doubt they teach much about any of their former colonies tbh.

And one last thing some friends from the North get very irrate that many people from the South know very little about the actual history of the troubles.