Maintenance of common green area in estate - landlord or tenant responsible?

Princess Fiona

So as the title suggests, I am renting in an estate where the Residents' Association are asking all households to cough up for maintenance of the common green areas.
Who is obliged to pay, me or the landlord? Or does it depend on lease?
Thanks in advance for any help!
Mods, please move if in wrong thread

Paulw

In short, the answer is no one.

A resident's association have no ability to make anyone pay.

They are simply asking, and you can say no.

Princess Fiona

Thanks for speedy response, they are being quite insistent though. Am considering passing note requesting payment on to letting agent, who would hopefully pass it on to landlord, wonder would this be appropriate?

3DataModem

What do you think is fair?

Paulw

Princess Fiona wrote: »

Thanks for speedy response, they are being quite insistent though. Am considering passing note requesting payment on to letting agent, who would hopefully pass it on to landlord, wonder would this be appropriate?

They can be as insistent as they want, but you have no obligation at all to pay, and nor does your landlord.

You can pass the note to the landlord, or pass it directly to the bin.

Princess Fiona

Thanks Paulw, that's what I figured.
Re. what's fair, I have mixed feelings, to be honest.
If I owned the house I would have no problem contributing to the upkeep of the common areas, but as I only have a 6 month lease, I'm less inclined to.
Also, like everyone else, am feeling the pinch these days, and the sum they've asked for is (in my opinion) quite a lot.

djimi

Tenants are not responsible for management company fees and I dont see why this would be any different. As a tenant (especially on a short term lease) there is no way Id be allowing the residents committee to get any money out of me for something like that.

Merch

Princess Fiona wrote: »

Thanks Paulw, that's what I figured.
Re. what's fair, I have mixed feelings, to be honest.
If I owned the house I would have no problem contributing to the upkeep of the common areas, but as I only have a 6 month lease, I'm less inclined to.
Also, like everyone else, am feeling the pinch these days, and the sum they've asked for is (in my opinion) quite a lot.

how much?

Princess Fiona

€50 per household, which I suppose doesn't sound like a lot, but all that it seems to cover is grass cutting, and it seems like it's going to be a regular thing too If they hadn't specified an amount I wouldn't mind as much, but I just think it's a lot to ask of people in this day and age. I'm aware that this is relative, though. €50 is nothing to some people and a lot to others. A "cut-off" date has also been supplied, which I take issue with.

djimi

Ive heard of some estates asking for extortionate amounts for this kind of thing. I worked with a girl who reckoned her estate would end up paying thousands every year (if every one paid) for a bloke to come around twice a month to cut the grass.

Xiney

Offer to do it for them for the money they've collected from everyone else

Merch

Princess Fiona wrote: »

€50 per household, which I suppose doesn't sound like a lot, but all that it seems to cover is grass cutting, and it seems like it's going to be a regular thing too If they hadn't specified an amount I wouldn't mind as much, but I just think it's a lot to ask of people in this day and age. I'm aware that this is relative, though. €50 is nothing to some people and a lot to others. A "cut-off" date has also been supplied, which I take issue with.

Are you sure there hasnt been a miscommunication and they meant 5 euro?
Why pay someone to do it at all, why doesnt everyone chip in with the workload, thats what I did instead of offering money

ricman

IF someones gonna pay it should be the landlord,not a tenant.

seamus

As others have said, the resident's association cannot force anyone to pay any money.

However, the Management Company are an entirely different thing who can insist that money is paid. But not by the tenant. All correspondence from the management company should be forwarded to the landlord, it's usually addressed to "The owner" and not "The occupant", therefore a tenant is not legally permitted to open this mail.

The general rule is that all management fees are paid by the landlord, who is then free to build this cost into your monthly rent. Theoretically, the landlord should split the management company fees into costs that he should bear - such as insurance and sinking funds - and costs that the tenant should bear, such as waste disposal and groundskeeping, but such conscientious landlords are few and far between.

Princess Fiona

Merch wrote: »

Are you sure there hasnt been a miscommunication and they meant 5 euro?
Why pay someone to do it at all, why doesnt everyone chip in with the workload, thats what I did instead of offering money

Unfortunately not, definitely €50 per annum. Can't understand how it could cost this to have the grass cut, maybe I'm missing something?

Merch

Well as a tenant I suggest you would have responsibility to keep the grass in your front garden and between the path and the road cut and tidy, but anything that is on a green would fall under the responsibility of a council? what is your local council? what area?

Paulw

Merch wrote: »

Well as a tenant I suggest you would have responsibility to keep the grass in your front garden and between the path and the road cut and tidy, but anything that is on a green would fall under the responsibility of a council? what is your local council? what area?

Who cares, it's not the OPs responsibility?

Keep your own garden cut and tidy, and don't worry about the resident's association, unless you want to contribute. They have no power to force anyone to pay anything. You should even direct anyone that calls to the landlord.

Merch

Paulw wrote: »

Who cares, it's not the OPs responsibility?

Keep your own garden cut and tidy, and don't worry about the resident's association, unless you want to contribute. They have no power to force anyone to pay anything. You should even direct anyone that calls to the landlord.

Whats with your attitude problem?

I'm giving my opinion, I'm pointing out that the residents association should be contacting the council to request they do it, if the council have signed the road/estate over from the builders that's what they usually do, unless it is a privately managed area.

Personally I'd suggest tenants and owners have some responsibility to the place they live.

Princess Fiona

Merch wrote: »

Well as a tenant I suggest you would have responsibility to keep the grass in your front garden and between the path and the road cut and tidy, but anything that is on a green would fall under the responsibility of a council? what is your local council? what area?

I absolutely agree that it is my responsibility to keep my own grass in order, which I always do. Re. the area, naturally I'd prefer not to say, as I could be easily identified.

echosound

I used to rent on a private estate who hired a company in to maintain the common greens/grass verges/trees etc, was also 50 euro per house per year (there was a LOT of landscaping and common greens in the estate).

Landlord always paid this fee in my experience - and I rented a total of 3 different houses on this particular estate over the years, each of the 3 landlords took care of the fees themselves, tenants never had to pay. Just passed on the letter to the landlord or agent and they took care of it. You should contact the LL or agent and let them know the fees are due, if anyone calls to the door to put pressure on you to pay up just tell them you are renting and you have passed on the info to the LL.

wellboytoo

Look at your lease it should say something to the effect of" Esb Utilities etc to be paid by ?, this will answer the question, offer the res commitee half as you are only there for 6 months would be the other suggestion.

quozl

wellboytoo wrote: »

Look at your lease it should say something to the effect of" Esb Utilities etc to be paid by ?, this will answer the question,

Oh come on, this is just disinformation.

This is not equivalent to the ESB or other utilities.

If the OP's lease says they are responsible specifically for this (and I'd be shocked) then they are, otherwise the landlord is.

ricman

some estates are under private management,like apartment blocks,either way its upto the landlord to pay,98 per cent of estates are either owned or maintained by local autority in respect to roads,footpaths, green spaces.AS a tenant its not your problem,just mention it to the landlord.
some people clean ,cut the border grass outside their homes because the council cant cover every single inch of ground,in every estate.

Paulw

The OP has stated it's a resident's association, not a management company. Therefore, the development is not managed, and it should be up to the council to maintain the place.

Even if it was a managed development, the OP would still have no liability to pay for maintenance of green areas. This would be up to the landlord.

Bottom line, the OP has no obligation to pay anything to a resident's association if they won't want to, and if it's a resident's association, then the landlord has no obligation to pay either. They can simply say no to the resident's association.

Victor

Some residents associations run barbecues and Christmas parties, so it may not just be for the grass.

And who cuts the grass in winter?

Atlantic Dawn

A residents association has no right to cut grass in public areas and by paying for such you could end up being liabled should anyone fall on freshly cut grass or any other injuries arise, public areas are solely the responsibility of the local authority of your area. This is what taxes and stamp duty is for.

Princess Fiona

Victor wrote: »

Some residents associations run barbecues and Christmas parties, so it may not just be for the grass.

And who cuts the grass in winter?

They do seem to run barbeques and the like but this was not mentioned when the €50 was requested. However I suspect that the money would be used to fund this as well as the grass cutting. If so I feel this should be stated upfront. Residents should have all the info. before deciding whether they wish to contribute. Re. grass cutting in winter, obviously it does not occur.

djimi

wellboytoo wrote: »

Look at your lease it should say something to the effect of" Esb Utilities etc to be paid by ?, this will answer the question, offer the res commitee half as you are only there for 6 months would be the other suggestion.

Grass cutting is not a utility.

goat2

the owner or landlord has to be the one who should part with the bucks here, as it is to his benefit, because if you were to rent where there is a private garden with the house, it is the landlords problem, take it this way if anything needs doing outside house, it is the landlords job,

grizzly

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

A residents association has no right to cut grass in public areas and by paying for such you could end up being liabled should anyone fall on freshly cut grass or any other injuries arise, public areas are solely the responsibility of the local authority of your area. This is what taxes and stamp duty is for.

This.

Lantus

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

A residents association has no right to cut grass in public areas and by paying for such you could end up being liabled should anyone fall on freshly cut grass or any other injuries arise, public areas are solely the responsibility of the local authority of your area. This is what taxes and stamp duty is for.

Resident associations work tirelessly to maintain grass areas by giving a damm about where they live. Often it's a small cadre of people doiung a tough job for nothing again and again. They should be comended.

The local coco dont give two hoots about grass, most have closed their parks department down and so taxes do not pay for grass cutting anymore. Stamp duty has nothing to do with maintaining grass areas.

There are a lot of estates that have fallen through the loop where there is no managment company set up to legally collect money to maintain the estate but often 10+acres of land to cut and look after that no one wants to take responsibility for.

Resident association members should be comended and supported in whatever way you can. If grass areas were to go wild the area you live would look awful and no doubt all the complainers here would probably be the first to jump up and say that somebody should do something about it.

In our estate renters came out and helped and even donated. Of course you dont have to but if we all closed our windows and doors to world outside it would be a grim place indeed.

D3PO

Lantus wrote: »

Resident association members should be comended and supported in whatever way you can. .

nobody is saying otherwise. That said residents associations have no right to ask anybody for money. Its one thing for them to pop a note in the door asking for donations, its quite another for them and many do to indicate that a fee of X amount needs to be paid.

A donation is just that and its quite rightly pointed out in this thread that neither the OP nor their landlord needs to pay.

A2LUE42

Local Authorities and what they cover when they take charge of a development varies from county to county. In Clare, for example, they will not take responsibility for grass cutting or landscaping. The costs of having this work done, by a responsible and insured company is substantial. In my area €40 per house is required to cover this cost for the year, based on the number of houses who contribute and all expenditure is documented and available. There is a grant available from the Council, which is due to be paid this month, but that only covers a small amount of the costs.

Ray Palmer

My understanding was the coucil will cover it if they have taken ownship of the common areas. The problem is many have not so it up to the owners to pay for this up keep. Council usual don't take ownsership until the building is completed by the developers.

Grass is going to be the least of the worries in a few years when the roads start need maintence.

Milk & Honey

Only members of the Residents Association have to pay. Anyone being persistent looking for money from a non member may be committing an offence under Section 11 of the Non fatal Offences Against the person Act 1997.
It may also be defamatory if they accuse a non member of owing money within the earshot of any third party.
If I was a tenant I would not join a residents association. I went to a residents association meeting once when I was a tenant and some householders there tried to sneer at me because I was renting.

Lantus

In reply to a few comments above: -

@D3PO & Milk & Honey

Resident associations are totally voluntary and as such all payments are as well. It's unlikley that being a member of one constitutes a legal requirement to pay unless a contract has been signed. We had a collection this year for our estate of which no one is a member and we had almost 90% payment from the estate as they knew the people collecting would work hard to make the estate a better place.

@ Ray Palmer

Taking in charge an estate adds an expense to a coucil as they pay for street lighting, drainage and road maintenence. (grass cutting is typically non existent nowadays, most councils have closed their parks departments years ago) Due to terrible planning laws however they dont have to worry about it as it's the developer that has to initiate the paperwork and often they are in no hurry to. Even when they do the council can delay and reject the application at their leisure. It's a tortuous process and not the benefot of the residents. Hence why most estates are waiting to be taken in charge. You really need to push your local coco and developer to get going with this.


There is a general problem looming in that there are a lot of estates build just pre boom that were done so on the premise of the coco cutting the grass but who as discussed no longer have any parks departments and are refusing to carry out and grounds maintanance. These estates can have upwards of 13 acres of grass areas (a huge area) and could potentially become reliant on the residents looking after it.

As there is no management company and no way of legally setting one up (who would sign a lease making them pay money every year even if it were feasible) these estates are now reliant on 'donations' to maintain a huge area of grass that they should never of been put in a position to do so. In reality you may only get 25-50% of an estate contributing so the rest get off scot free whole others pay for and give their time for nothing to maintain their estate. It's all wrong, another example of the shoddy, non existent planning laws that exist in this country.

D3PO

Lantus wrote: »

In reply to a few comments above: -

@D3PO & Milk & Honey

Resident associations are totally voluntary and as such all payments are as well. It's unlikley that being a member of one constitutes a legal requirement to pay unless a contract has been signed. We had a collection this year for our estate of which no one is a member and we had almost 90% payment from the estate as they knew the people collecting would work hard to make the estate a better place.

.

what exactly is your point. I said that you dont have to pay which you clearly agree with. Also dont assume all residents association behave like your one.

I have seen letters before where RA's have advised they will be sending a newsletter with the names of those who have "donated to thank them" this is nothing more than a ploy trying to shame those that havent paid.

That is disgusting behaviour, they have a cheek, and I can tell you thats mroe wisespread than you think.

Lantus

D3PO wrote: »

what exactly is your point. I said that you dont have to pay which you clearly agree with. Also dont assume all residents association behave like your one.

I have seen letters before where RA's have advised they will be sending a newsletter with the names of those who have "donated to thank them" this is nothing more than a ploy trying to shame those that havent paid.

That is disgusting behaviour, they have a cheek, and I can tell you thats mroe wisespread than you think.

It's cheeky but not disgusting. RA's provide an almost free service as it's typically all done on the good will of people volunteering. Often the same few people time after time to look after and maintain green areas and other services. They are doing it because no one esle will.

The fact that it is voluntary makes it so hard for RA's to raise funds at all, especially in the current climate. Even fundraising takes a lot of time and effort having done it myself which most people dont seem to realise.

A bit of cheeky encouragement isn't too bad. You'll often find that the folks who dont pay are at the front of meetings waving fists that nothing has been done at people who do a thankless job for free.

RA comittee members are true hero's..

Paulw

D3PO wrote: »

I said that you don't have to pay which you clearly agree with. Also don't assume all residents association behave like your one.

I have seen letters before where RA's have advised they will be sending a newsletter with the names of those who have "donated to thank them" this is nothing more than a ploy trying to shame those that haven't paid.

I have to agree here. There are many threads even just here on boards, where people are bullied by RA's, to raise funds. Threatened to be named on a list of those who haven't "donated".

Such actions are more than disgusting and disgraceful, but bordering on illegal.

Yes, RAs do a thankless job. They do want others are too lazy to do, or don't want to get involved in. But, that does not give them the right to bully and threaten people.

Lantus

Paulw wrote: »

I have to agree here. There are many threads even just here on boards, where people are bullied by RA's, to raise funds. Threatened to be named on a list of those who haven't "donated".

Such actions are more than disgusting and disgraceful, but bordering on illegal.

Yes, RAs do a thankless job. They do want others are too lazy to do, or don't want to get involved in. But, that does not give them the right to bully and threaten people.

How do they get names anyway?? Only if you give it out. Providing a name and address together isn't right if circulated to others. data protection violation me thinks.

Outkast_IRE

Its € 50 where i live aswell, its mostly pushed up by the fact that loads of houses wont pay even though you see their kids playing in the fields every day.
For renters unless you plan on being there long term and have kids using the green area i can see why you wouldnt want to pay .

JDxtra

You live there. If you want the place to be kept well, then feel free to contribute. If not, then just leave it.

Paulw

JDxtra wrote: »

You live there. If you want the place to be kept well, then feel free to contribute. If not, then just leave it.

Or just don't pay, since you have no obligation to pay anyway.

Victor

One council, I'm not sure was it Fingal or South Dublin have changed their grass cutting patterns. Some areas like large fields and meadows, they will only cut 1-3 times per year. Others, like play areas and sports pitches, they will cut every few weeks in the summer. This means they can do twice as much with the same resources.

Having variations in the grass means that you can have areas where younger children can "explore" while still within eyesight and give a more varied and richer landscape.

D3PO

Lantus wrote: »

A bit of cheeky encouragement isn't too bad. ..

yes it is because they have no right to any money. Its bordering on blackmail.

your perspective quite frankly is the same as most people in RA's which is one most people despise.