Murder vs. man slaughter vs. assault causing harm

Volthar

Hi All,

further to the recent scumbag attacks in Dublin area ("road rage" and a man killed after being hit in a head with a hurley, Coolock killing, screwdriver killings and others) I am wondering how Garda or whoever is in charge qualifies an attack when setting charges. I mean if someone kicks someone's head several times then leaves a person unconsious in a puddle of blood, hits someone in a head with a hurley, baseball bat, stabbs someone in a head with a screwdrived etc. it is clear it was done with killing in mind and if the victim eventually dies (like your man hit with a hurley or the Polish guy attacked in Coolock) then it is MURDER not a manslaughter or some poxy "attack causing harm".

Is it just lack of education and scumbags think in their zombie like, drunk minds it is allrite to do it as the victim will sure rejuvenate somehow... as they always do in computer games... even stabbed in a heart, head, kicked in the head and left unconsious at 5 AM on Sat?

I am thinking of printing a large number of "educational" leaflets pointing what action may/will cause victim's death but at the same time I do not want to give them scumbags new ideas.

May they all rot in hell!

kirving

I'm not advocating this kind of thing what so ever, nor am I making assumptions about what happened in that road rage case.

However(hypothetically speaking), if someone is attacking you, and you end up using the hurley you're holding to defend yourself, one hit in the right place could transform a minor scuffle into a murder case, which wouldn't really be fair as you never ment to kill the person.

Without ALL the facts it's impossible to know.

Volthar

Kevin Irving wrote: »

I'm not advocating this kind of thing what so ever, nor am I making assumptions about what happened in that road rage case.

However(hypothetically speaking), if someone is attacking you, and you end up using the hurley you're holding to defend yourself, one hit in the right place could transform a minor scuffle into a murder case, which wouldn't really be fair as you never ment to kill the person.

Without ALL the facts it's impossible to know.

I agree with you. I am usually quite emotional when reading news about yet another person killing in the town.

One thing I do not understand though is how come in many killing cases whoever kills happens to have accidentaly carried a knife, screwdriver, hurley etc. handy. I consider myself as an average Joe and I do not carry such things on me.

I agree with you that without ALL the facts it's impossible to know but say someone is cursing at you or honking on a street... would you:
a/ ignore and drive/walk away
b/curse/honk back at him and then drive away
c/ search your car for a dangerous object (just in case) and jump out of your car to have a nice fight?

if the c/ is the most reasonable choice they I should be carrying a screwdriver, hurley or my "collection" of three samurai swords on me all the time... just in case...

Reloc8

Volthar wrote: »

I agree with you that without ALL the facts it's impossible to know but say someone is cursing at you or honking on a street... would you:
a/ ignore and drive/walk away
b/curse/honk back at him and then drive away
c/ search your car for a dangerous object (just in case) and jump out of your car to have a nice fight?

A.

Always.

PCPhoto

Volthar wrote: »

Hi All,

further to the recent scumbag attacks in Dublin area ("road rage" and a man killed after being hit in a head with a hurley, Coolock killing, screwdriver killings and others) I am wondering how Garda or whoever is in charge qualifies an attack when setting charges. I mean if someone kicks someone's head several times then leaves a person unconsious in a puddle of blood, hits someone in a head with a hurley, baseball bat, stabbs someone in a head with a screwdrived etc. it is clear it was done with killing in mind and if the victim eventually dies (like your man hit with a hurley or the Polish guy attacked in Coolock) then it is MURDER not a manslaughter or some poxy "attack causing harm".

Is it just lack of education and scumbags think in their zombie like, drunk minds it is allrite to do it as the victim will sure rejuvenate somehow... as they always do in computer games... even stabbed in a heart, head, kicked in the head and left unconsious at 5 AM on Sat?

I am thinking of printing a large number of "educational" leaflets pointing what action may/will cause victim's death but at the same time I do not want to give them scumbags new ideas.

May they all rot in hell!

the highlighted part is a partial truth - the " scumbags" in this case have little or no regard for the consequences of their actions...they dont care because they have all been through the system and in their eyes its nothing to fear....most of the time when such acts are committed its adrenalin which pushes them over the line.

These "people" use drink and drugs as an excuse and in part the courts accepts it - even though the statement is always mentioned in court that drink is not an excuse - it will be taken into consideration blah blah blah.

in the case of Pawel Kalite's killers (screwdriver to the head) - they claimed it was the crowd shouting at them which encouraged them to keep going - my understanding is that one of the lads went off and got a screwdriver and returned...in this case - making a conscious decision to get a weapon.

with the recent killings - its more than likely that each will be charged - I find it strange that with the road rage incident that they haven't picked up the guy - they interviewed him and released him without charge prior to the other guys death, I'm guessing if he doesn't plead guilty he might look for temporary insanity - so its possible the DPP/Gardai may not get a proper conviction for murder and might deal with manslaughter.

as for the Coolock killing - the guy was not long out of prison (not a lot of people know this) but he was jailed in 2008 for 3yrs with 12months suspended, if he had served the full 3yrs we would not have had this issue - longer jail sentences is the answer and limit the court of criminal appeal.

the gardai charged the man with assault causing harm - which basically means they can ask a judge to remand him in custody due to possible more serious charges - in this case its possible they will look for a murder charge...only time will tell.

my personal opinion is that we need to adopt a similar rule to the three(3) strikes rule ..... if you are a repeat offender its obvious that you do not have any respect for the laws of this country and also its people..... habitual criminals or people with more than 10 criminal convictions should receive a mandatory minimum 15yrs....for each subsequent offence - and no consecutive sentencing !!!

(and no exceptional circumstances which allows a judge to give less of a sentence - unlike the section 15a law - mandatory minimum of 10yrs for possession of drugs valued over €13,500 - its rare that the person gets anywhere close to 10yrs due to solicitors, barristers and the client saying the "right things" to a judge to appeal for leniency)

if we had proper sentences - little or no remission - then maybe our streets might be a bit safer....we also need prisons which are an actual punishment instead of a holiday camp....prisons should have a strict NO DRUGS policy - if you are addicted you automatically go into drug treatment as part of your sentence. (at the moment they claim to have a no drugs policy but they already know how the drugs are getting in and don't stop it so they wont have rioting prisoners) - the prison officers look out for their own safety and thats it.

JohnK

PCPhoto wrote: »

...as for the Coolock killing - the guy was not long out of prison (not a lot of people know this) but he was jailed in 2008 for 3yrs with 12months suspended, if he had served the full 3yrs we would not have had this issue - longer jail sentences is the answer and limit the court of criminal appeal.
...

Or more likely it would have just happened to someone else in another 12 months time.

SparrowTown

Kevin Irving wrote: »

I'm not advocating this kind of thing what so ever, nor am I making assumptions about what happened in that road rage case.

However(hypothetically speaking), if someone is attacking you, and you end up using the hurley you're holding to defend yourself, one hit in the right place could transform a minor scuffle into a murder case, which wouldn't really be fair as you never ment to kill the person.

Without ALL the facts it's impossible to know.

manslaughter surely? doesn't murder need intent?

MrPudding

Have a read of this:

http://www.barristermagazine.com/articles/issue34/mitchell.htm

It is related to the UK, but interesting nonetheless.

MrP

FreudianSlippers

Murder requires the intention to kill, or cause serious injury to, some person. This is regardless of whether the person is actually killed or not.

Manslaughter is lacking that intention. You have voluntary manslaughter (things like provocation and excessive self-defence) and involuntary manslaughter (assault manslaughter, criminal/dangerous act manslaughter, criminal negligence manslaughter, etc.).

Assault causing harm is quite simply: A person who assaults another causing him or her harm shall be guilty of an offence.

Nice 1353

Can a person charged with assault last week be rearrested if the victim dies from injury sustained. A post mortum has taken place and file is being prepared for DPP.

Pro Hoc Vice

Nice 1353 wrote: »

Can a person charged with assault last week be rearrested if the victim dies from injury sustained. A post mortum has taken place and file is being prepared for DPP.

If the person has not been tried and the book of evidence supports it then the indictment can be changed right up until the morning of the trial.

In your example as the matter is only before the a DPP then if the DPP believes the evidence supports murder the person can be returned on a murder charge.

An issue would of course arise if the trial has finished then double jeapordy would apply.