false search warrant

med1

hi guys looking for some advice
my house was raided by the gardai today due to there alledegatly been a firearm there.they found nothing and left it
this is the second such search in 2 years.when i complained to the garda that it was a nieghbour who made both allegations and who is a person that i have reported about anti social behaviour i was told they cant tell me anything.
i find it disgusting that gardai can ransack your property for no reason other than been told a lie and then dont apologise or say anything when it is shown to be a lie
the garda in question has told me i ca use the ombundsman but i really would prefer to know if i can do anything legally about the nieghbour telling lies

Avns1s

Your thread title might lead one to the conclusion that the gardai forged the search warrant and might be better to be changed.

Bosco boy

Strange how you have dismissed the Garda ombudsman at such an early stage!! Most people would see them as their first port of call if they have been infringed upon by the gardai, maybe you know where your going with this one!

med1

hi in answer to the 2 points
firstly i said the warrant was false as it was a warant for a firearm which never even existed in fact if it was real then why was only half the house searched.
the reason i am not going with the ombundsman is i dont believe in it i would rather an independent ombundsman such as the psni one as our one keps dismissing cases against the gardai like the recent one where the traffic core stated that the off duty garda that hit the taxi passenger in the clontarf area was speeding but the ombundsman said that there was no grounds for charges .to me that is a group that is not independent but rather another garda section.
if the ombundsman wans to prove it to me that he is impartial id listen but id rather the british or even the american system

Paulw

The warrant wasn't false, just the grounds for which it was received (according to you).

As for the ombudsman, you have to deal with the office that is there. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it can't work.

As the others have said, your first port of call should be to lodge a complaint with the ombudsman. You don't have much other recourse at the moment. Moaning on boards certainly won't get anything done.

old_aussie

Go to the ombudsman.

You might find that your neighbour is charged with making a false statement and charged for such an offence by the police.

MagicSean

med1 wrote: »

hi in answer to the 2 points
firstly i said the warrant was false as it was a warant for a firearm which never even existed in fact if it was real then why was only half the house searched.
the reason i am not going with the ombundsman is i dont believe in it i would rather an independent ombundsman such as the psni one as our one keps dismissing cases against the gardai like the recent one where the traffic core stated that the off duty garda that hit the taxi passenger in the clontarf area was speeding but the ombundsman said that there was no grounds for charges .to me that is a group that is not independent but rather another garda section.
if the ombundsman wans to prove it to me that he is impartial id listen but id rather the british or even the american system

Wasn't that a coroners court decision and not the ombudsman?

Bosco boy

In similar cases gardai often have to search premises of people who threaten to shoot their neighbours in disputes, such threats would be grounds for a search warrant, most times it's a fool shouting his mouth off, but sometimes it can result in a shooting, the ombudsman are totally independant and would love a good case if you can give them one, I,ve a feeling you won't consider any outcome other than the one you want to be fair or impartial. You sound like the neighbour from hell !!!!

pirelli

Bosco boy wrote: »

In similar cases gardai often have to search premises of people who threaten to shoot their neighbours in disputes, such threats would be grounds for a search warrant, most times it's a fool shouting his mouth off, but sometimes it can result in a shooting, the ombudsman are totally independant and would love a good case if you can give them one, I,ve a feeling you won't consider any outcome other than the one you want to be fair or impartial. You sound like the neighbour from hell !!!!

The neighbour from hell! The OP is just raising an issue he is having. Even if he does report it to the omsbudsman there might well be another course of action so i cannot see why that makes the OP the neighbour from hell.

Neighbours that resort to making hoax calls to police are real problems. There is also the problem of anonymity and the lax attitude of the Garda in relation to whom is making the complaint/report.

MagicSean

Would this really be a case for the ombudsman? You're problem is with the neighbour. What would your complaint against the Gardaí be?

pirelli

k_mac wrote: »

Would this really be a case for the ombudsman? You're problem is with the neighbour. What would your complaint against the Gardaí be?

Is your post directed to Bosco Man, Paul W or Aussie.


I would imagine he would have to prove the neighbour made those compaints and logically the omsbudsman would be the first stop, Not so much a complaint as much as seeking to find out the cause of the problem. Indeed the omsbudsman may not be able to divulge information and there might be another process to follow . I.E the data protection act.

There has to be a way of apprehending and gathering legal evidence of a problem hoax caller to the gardai and or the gardai should be liable for the inconvience of false or malicious reports and the excuse of of anonymity has to be justifiable and not simply incompetence or off handed laziness.

Maybe the confidential hotline should advertise to the public (such as the rouge neighbours) about the criminal consequences of abusing the hotline with malicious and false information. Then they would be aware that they were committing a felony and would not be so clever.

Someone in a (un-monitored) phone box rings in a knowingly false report to the Garda hotline with the intention to cause harm to a neighbour.

Garda will have to figure out how to catch that person. That's their skill. Figure it out. Perhaps catching a few of these pricks would make people more aware.

med1

hi lads thank you for the replys
today i start my fact finding
firstly i am going to dublin city council to let them know what happened and to state to them the name of the person i know who made the calls
next i am going to try and see the local garda superindent to raise my concerns especially over the idea that even if i bring the hoaxer to court that the gardai that ran the warrant cant go as witnesses that it was a hoax according to the det sergent i spoke to
finally if this still doesent draw results then the ombundsman , by the way what i am looking for is simple that the nieghbour is brought to court and charged for harrasment wasting police time and anti social behaviour thats all i want plus an apology for the way my pregnent wife was treated by the gardai during the search
what i find amazing about all this is if i want i can make fake reports about anybody i dont like and laugh as the gardai destroy their lifes ,i dont think this would be tolerated in any other country

Bosco boy

I'll tune in to the 9 o clock news tonight so, best of luck!!!

donaghs

k_mac wrote: »

Would this really be a case for the ombudsman? You're problem is with the neighbour. What would your complaint against the Gardaí be?

I've heard lots of anecdotal evidence of people making anonymous tip-offs to the Gardai, just to cause extreme embarrasment and discomfort to people at a particular address.

I personally know one person who had guards banging on their door one morning with a search warrant looking for drugs. According to the individual, after a quick look around they realised that the person they were looking for wasn't a Guardian-reader in a professional job. So they toned down the aggression a bit and mumbled an apology and left. After an checking with the guards, all they could tell them was that it was an anonymous tip-off.

So, is it as easy as sending a Pizza to the wrong address? And if so, isn't this one of the most effective ways for muppets to harrass ordinary hard working decent citizens?

MagicSean

donaghs wrote: »

I've heard lots of anecdotal evidence of people making anonymous tip-offs to the Gardai, just to cause extreme embarrasment and discomfort to people at a particular address.

I personally know one person who had guards banging on their door one morning with a search warrant looking for drugs. According to the individual, after a quick look around they realised that the person they were looking for wasn't a Guardian-reader in a professional job. So they toned down the aggression a bit and mumbled an apology and left. After an checking with the guards, all they could tell them was that it was an anonymous tip-off.

So, is it as easy as sending a Pizza to the wrong address? And if so, isn't this one of the most effective ways for muppets to harrass ordinary hard working decent citizens?

A garda cant just magic up a warrant. They have to convince a judge or peace commissioner that there is grounds for the search. It's very rare that this would be done on the basis of just an anonymous tip off.

donaghs

k_mac wrote: »

A garda cant just magic up a warrant. They have to convince a judge or peace commissioner that there is grounds for the search. It's very rare that this would be done on the basis of just an anonymous tip off.

But if that's all the Gardai will tell the individual, what other course of action do they have to try and find out what's really going on? Who's pointing the finger at them?
Is the Garda Ombudsman the best route to try and find out more info? Also, as in the case of the OP, if this isn't the first time this has happened, surely the Gardai will have some sort of details logged to prevent a re-occurrance?

From an earlier thread on a similar issue:
and some warrants "like S24 Warrant Misuse of Drugs Act can be issued by a Superintendent if there is a likelyhood that the drugs will be moved before a DCJ or PC can be contacted."
Getting a colleague to approve a warrant in a hurry could possibly mean more accidents like this.

Bosco boy

As this was a search for a firearm a section 29 warrant would probally have been used, this can be issued by a garda superintendent, if he's gets to meet the super then things might become clearer, I've a feeling that as usual there's more to this story.

FreudianSlippers

Remember to critique the post, not the poster please.

MagicSean

donaghs wrote: »

But if that's all the Gardai will tell the individual, what other course of action do they have to try and find out what's really going on? Who's pointing the finger at them?
Is the Garda Ombudsman the best route to try and find out more info? Also, as in the case of the OP, if this isn't the first time this has happened, surely the Gardai will have some sort of details logged to prevent a re-occurrance?

From an earlier thread on a similar issue:
and some warrants "like S24 Warrant Misuse of Drugs Act can be issued by a Superintendent if there is a likelyhood that the drugs will be moved before a DCJ or PC can be contacted."
Getting a colleague to approve a warrant in a hurry could possibly mean more accidents like this.

The Op would have to make a complaint against the Gardaí when he is actually agrieved about his neighbour with the sole intent of getting information. The Ombudsman will not tell him anything about what they uncover. It would be a pointless complaint that would border on vexatious.

detective

donaghs wrote: »

From an earlier thread on a similar issue:
and some warrants "like S24 Warrant Misuse of Drugs Act can be issued by a Superintendent if there is a likelyhood that the drugs will be moved before a DCJ or PC can be contacted."
Getting a colleague to approve a warrant in a hurry could possibly mean more accidents like this.

I've been a Garda now for about 5 years, many of which were in plain clothes units where many many drugs warrant were got and I can categorically state that I have never, nor has any of the people I work with, applied for or got a warrant from my district officer (Supt.). It is extremely rare for this to happen.

To the poster, I understand your frustration if everything is as you say it is. That's a big IF as I don't know you. However, imagine if somebody was shot and it later turned out that the Gardai didn't get a warrant to remove the gun because the Gardai were scared of a complaint from the occupant. Its all about balance.

I think it all boils down to screening informants and the Gardai are trying to do this at the moment with CHIS as a result of Morris.

med1

the warrant only has to be santioned by a commisoner no need for a judge or peace commisoner
thats what i was told
well i contacted the ombundsman he cant do anything as i dont have a complaint about garda wrongdoing a search that was malisous is not counted as wrongdoing.i am awaiting the superintendents reply at the moment

med1

hi detective
it is nice to get a gardas view

one thing that i do have to mention is with this search that the gardai involved did not do a proper search ie they only looked in the kitchen bathroom and attic and glanced into the shed
they never went near the bedrooms or searched the sitting room
if they were seriously looking for a weapon i would have taught they would have turned the house upside down looking so to me they knew something wasnt right but wont admit it.
i do agree i would prefer a search rather than someone been shot but a simple redress of how gardai deal with the public in cases like this where there is nothing found or discovered because it never existed originally.
the only thing that has come out of this for me is i now have very little respect for the gardai and will now think twice before ringing them in future when i see something wrong or illegal

detective

med1 wrote: »

(1) one thing that i do have to mention is with this search that the gardai involved did not do a proper search ie they only looked in the kitchen bathroom and attic and glanced into the shed
they never went near the bedrooms or searched the sitting room
if they were seriously looking for a weapon i would have taught they would have turned the house upside down looking so to me they knew something wasnt right but wont admit it.

(2)i do agree i would prefer a search rather than someone been shot but a simple redress of how gardai deal with the public in cases like this where there is nothing found or discovered because it never existed originally.

(3)the only thing that has come out of this for me is i now have very little respect for the gardai and will now think twice before ringing them in future when i see something wrong or illegal

(1) i obviously cannot explain why they searched the way you are saying they did but i have been involved in very short searches where the information is very accurate and hence there isn't need for a long search, i.e. if its not in a specific place where he keeps it normally then it wont be there at all.

(2) again you're talking about a redress of the gardai when in actual fact the problem appears to be the source of their info and in that case maybe we should look at a redress of informants. this would be very difficult though. remember what the gardai actually do here - they receive info and act as a medium between the informant and the issuing authority (judge, pc or supt.) who then either doesn't grant the warrant or does and when he/she does then this is like an order to be carried out by the gardai. my point is the garda role is limited to receiving info and searching.

(3) thats entirely your right.

Bosco boy

med1 wrote: »

the warrant only has to be santioned by a commisoner no need for a judge or peace commisoner
thats what i was told
well i contacted the ombundsman he cant do anything as i dont have a complaint about garda wrongdoing a search that was malisous is not counted as wrongdoing.i am awaiting the superintendents reply at the moment[

The ombudsman should be able to deal with the alleged bad behaviour of the gardai, Especially if the search was illegal/malicious surely they have a duty to carry out some investigation into it, I've seen them investigate a hell of a lot less. The commissioner never issues warrants by the way.

Our man in Havana

Do the Gardaí not have a duty to verify the info prior to seeking a warrant?

newmug

Bosco Boy, whats your problem? The OP doesnt have a gripe with the guards, its with his neighbour causing nuisance raids. He's even reluctant to go to the ombudsman! He's talking to the council and the super in a rational way, and not being abusive or presumptuous. And you think its HIM thats the neighbour from hell? What on earth gives you that point of view? You picked it up all wrong.

Bosco boy

Am I not entitled to an opinion different to yours? If the OP had started off this thread with a more accurate heading I might have a bit more sympathy, I simply don't belive the full story is being told here as many things don't add up, the ombudsman are obliged to take his complaint and he says they wouldn't, you have a right to ask me the question you did and I hope I've answered it but I also have a right to query what's he says if it dosent add up!

MagicSean

Bosco boy wrote: »

Am I not entitled to an opinion different to yours? If the OP had started off this thread with a more accurate heading I might have a bit more sympathy, I simply don't belive the full story is being told here as many things don't add up, the ombudsman are obliged to take his complaint and he says they wouldn't, you have a right to ask me the question you did and I hope I've answered it but I also have a right to query what's he says if it dosent add up!

The ombudsman are not obliged to take his complaint about his neighbour. It has nothing to do with them. If he was to make a complaint about something like Garda harassment it would probably be different.

Johnny Utah

Make a request under the Data Protection Act- at least you will find out what info they have on you/your house.

reeta

k_mac wrote: »

Wasn't that a coroners court decision and not the ombudsman?

INSERT CONSPIRACY THEORY HERE

FreudianSlippers

THIS THREAD HAS MOST CERTAINLY RUN ITS COURSE.