Enda Kenny puts votes before the national interest

whippet

Reading the Times this morning I was shocked to see a small article quoting kenny.

While Kenny accepts that the Tallaght Accord years ago was in the national interest and actually benefitted the country he has ruled out any notion of 'Tallaght II' based on the fact that it could cost FG Votes.

Who the the hell is advising this idiot?

meditraitor

whippet wrote: »

Reading the Times this morning I was shocked to see a small article quoting kenny.

While Kenny accepts that the Tallaght Accord years ago was in the national interest and actually benefitted the country he has ruled out any notion of 'Tallaght II' based on the fact that it could cost FG Votes.

Who the the hell is advising this idiot?

My understanding is that the government are not giving the opposition any budget information with which to formulate a plan to help with the current economical problems.

Why would any party publish any proposals without the information,basic data? that would be playing into FF hands.

Breezer

I read that as well. Certainly quite odd-sounding, but bear in mind that it wasn't a direct quote. Until I see or hear a direct quote, I'd take it with a pinch of salt.

Shea O'Meara

Costing votes could mean if they go against laid down FG policy just as much as it could to pandering to popularity. So I'm unsure if the quote is a good or bad one for FG.

Liam Byrne

Considering that I believe letting FF anywhere near power is against the national interest, I think the title of this thread is misleading.

johngalway

Supporting Fianna Fail is not in the National Interest. Fianna Fail is not the country, contrary to what some on here would like to have us all think. Forget Sinn Fein, Fianna Fail are the ultimate Me Feiners.

gandalf

At this stage it is in the countries best interest to haul FF out of Government and leave them in the wilderness for a very long period of time. Therefore I'd agree with Endas position to not enter into any agreements with them.

In fact I am puzzled it took them so long to end the vote pairing scheme. That should have been ended back in 2007 and they should have been doing everything in their power to get FF out of power.

whippet

meditraitor wrote: »

My understanding is that the government are not giving the opposition any budget information with which to formulate a plan to help with the current economical problems.

Why would any party publish any proposals without the information,basic data? that would be playing into FF hands.

not quite true

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1002/tax.html

The Raven.

gandalf wrote: »

At this stage it is in the countries best interest to haul FF out of Government and leave them in the wilderness for a very long period of time. Therefore I'd agree with Endas position to not enter into any agreements with them.

+1

Cowen will listen to Opposition proposals

The Taoiseach has said it is in the national interest to hear constructive proposals from all parties on restoring economic growth to Ireland.
Brian Cowen said he would be making facilities and personnel available in the Department of Finance to answer queries and listen to ideas on overcoming the challenges ahead.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1002/tax.html

In theory this should have always been the norm, but I wouldn't trust Fianna Fail with any information on proposals, and I doubt if the other parties will either.

Fianna Fail have made a mess of the economy, now they want to use other party proposals to clean it up, while they claim the credit for it. The sooner they are gone the better.

whippet

Breezer wrote: »

I read that as well. Certainly quite odd-sounding, but bear in mind that it wasn't a direct quote. Until I see or hear a direct quote, I'd take it with a pinch of salt.

exactly what he said was

"The problem for Fine Gael at that time was that while it was wonderful from a national perspective to support the Tallaght strategy, Fine Gael had no power or influence over it, and suffered at the polls as a consequence"

From that it is quite clear that Kenny sees votes are more important to any potential strategy to help the country.

The lack of a credible opposition, which is becoming more and more apparent every day makes it hard to tow the line that getting rid of FF is the only option.

The electorate is blinded by the headlines, I couldn't fathom the amount of support and the hero status for that clown who drove the truck in to the gates of leinster house. First off, in most other nations driving a HGV at government buildings would have resulted in the driver being shot before he got there .... the 'hero' has now stung Anglo for a couple of million. If idiots like him didn't take out these loans for pure greed and fuelling the property bubble we wouldn't be in this state.

Yes the banks etc ... are to blame but so are the idiots who took out these massive loans and can't pay them.

Liam Byrne

whippet wrote: »

The electorate is blinded by the headlines

Including yourself, apparently....

whippet wrote: »

I couldn't fathom the amount of support and the hero status for that clown who drove the truck in to the gates of leinster house.

Check for the latest video; apparently all of the news headlines and soundbites from TDs were bare-faced lies.

johngalway

whippet wrote: »

exactly what he said was

"The problem for Fine Gael at that time was that while it was wonderful from a national perspective to support the Tallaght strategy, Fine Gael had no power or influence over it, and suffered at the polls as a consequence"

From that it is quite clear that Kenny sees votes are more important to any potential strategy to help the country.

I'm confused as to why you'd be upset at someone telling the truth. That's what happened.

Screw Fianna Fail. Sooner they're out the better. Enda and Eamon may not do better, but it's very hard to see how they'd do worse than the current FF government who speak of FG having no track record.

No track record is a hell of a lot better than FF's track record.

The_Minister

gandalf wrote: »

In fact I am puzzled it took them so long to end the vote pairing scheme. That should have been ended back in 2007 and they should have been doing everything in their power to get FF out of power.

The problem is that the vote-sharing scheme has a legitimate use - sometimes TDs and Ministers have a genuine reason for leaving the country.

A total end would have become very embaressing for FG very quickly.

whippet

johngalway wrote: »

No track record is a hell of a lot better than FF's track record.

This is my biggest problem with the hysterical mania out there at the moment.

We need a government that can steer this country through a crisis of epic proportions. So the notion of anyone but FF is scary, Labour have over 30% of the opinion polls ... and they can't offer anything but comic analogies and sound-bytes .... the electorate voted bertie back while he was trying to explain away his dig out .... this same electorate will vote either Gilmore or Kenny at the main man .... time to start thinking rationally and have a look across all parties and see who has talent to offer.

Personally I can see a case for new party made up talent from both FF & FG .. but our civil war democracy will ensure any new party will fail.

Johnny Murphy FF

whippet wrote: »

Reading the Times this morning I was shocked to see a small article quoting kenny.

While Kenny accepts that the Tallaght Accord years ago was in the national interest and actually benefitted the country he has ruled out any notion of 'Tallaght II' based on the fact that it could cost FG Votes.

Who the the hell is advising this idiot?

There called Fine Gael, the party of idiots!

meditraitor

whippet wrote: »

not quite true

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1002/tax.html

Why are they only doing it now when the country is foooked? sneaky shower of wasters tried to wriggle their way out of the mess they created and now when they know there is no way back they try to bring the opposition in to help out.

If I was the opposition I wouldnt lift a finger to help them criminals (FF/Greens), in less than a year we will be shot of them:mad:

gandalf

The_Minister wrote: »

The problem is that the vote-sharing scheme has a legitimate use - sometimes TDs and Ministers have a genuine reason for leaving the country.

A total end would have become very embaressing for FG very quickly.

Actually whatever keeps our current Government TD's and Ministers from leaving the country is saving us from embarrassment.

I think its embarrassing that FG and others have been facilitating the inept with this scheme for so long.

At this stage all opposition parties should have one objective and that's to get those that have ruined this country out of power as quickly as possible to limit the further damage that they can do.

91011

Kenny's statement basicaly says it all.
eff what would be good the country it's me me me!

" On Friday, Mr Kenny ruled out what would effectively be a new version of the so-called 'Tallaght Strategy', on the grounds that while it may be good for the country, it would cost Fine Gael votes. "

Lets just gets rid of Kenny - he has NEVER shown anything to me to suggest he would be a capable leader. Richard Bruton as leader + Noonan in Finance coupled with Lenihan & Joan Burton in a Country First Party Second concensus is what we need righjt now - not in 3 months time, not early next year but right now is when we need joined up thinking in the interests of the country.

efb

91011 wrote: »

Kenny's statement basicaly says it all.
eff what would be good the country it's me me me!

" On Friday, Mr Kenny ruled out what would effectively be a new version of the so-called 'Tallaght Strategy', on the grounds that while it may be good for the country, it would cost Fine Gael votes. "

Lets just gets rid of Kenny - he has NEVER shown anything to me to suggest he would be a capable leader. Richard Bruton as leader + Noonan in Finance coupled with Lenihan & Joan Burton in a Country First Party Second concensus is what we need righjt now - not in 3 months time, not early next year but right now is when we need joined up thinking in the interests of the country.

I heard this on Friday and was gonna post it, but had no source that went with it.

WTF Enda!!!!!!!!

Liam Byrne

91011 wrote: »

Kenny's statement basicaly says it all.
eff what would be good the country it's me me me!

" On Friday, Mr Kenny ruled out what would effectively be a new version of the so-called 'Tallaght Strategy', on the grounds that while it may be good for the country, it would cost Fine Gael votes. "

Source ?

How much of the above is what Kenny ACTUALLY said, and how much of it is spin along the lines of the Sindo claiming that Lenihan is trusted ?

efb

It was repeated in an interview on the radio

gandalf

Already being discussed lads.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056049827

orourkeda

Vanity, Ambition and personal recognition are all attributes that the majority of high level political figures possess.

This isn't really a surprise.

whippet

gandalf wrote: »

Actually whatever keeps our current Government TD's and Ministers from leaving the country is saving us from embarrassment.

I think its embarrassing that FG and others have been facilitating the inept with this scheme for so long.

At this stage all opposition parties should have one objective and that's to get those that have ruined this country out of power as quickly as possible to limit the further damage that they can do.

hold on a tick, didn't the opposition look for budgetary measures to further inflate the property bubble at the end off the boom? Didn't they want stamp duty more or less abolished to encourage it?

Don't delude yourselves in to thinking that the opposition would have done any better.

gandalf

whippet wrote: »

hold on a tick, didn't the opposition look for budgetary measures to further inflate the property bubble at the end off the boom? Didn't they want stamp duty more or less abolished to encourage it?

Don't delude yourselves in to thinking that the opposition would have done any better.

This kind of deflection is really pathetic. The opposition were just that. They were not in power they did not have the information available to them that the Government did.

TBH I don't delude myself at all, I base my opinions on the actions of those who were supposed to be leading us and ensuring this country has a sustainable direction in the coming years.

The FF led Governments instead have bankrupted the country and ensured that not only my generation but the next will pay a very heavy price for their inadequate stewardship of the economy.

whippet

gandalf wrote: »

The FF led Governments instead have bankrupted the country and ensured that not only my generation but the next will pay a very heavy price for their inadequate stewardship of the economy.

and based on what the opposition wanted to do they would have steered the ship in to the same iceberg. You can't belittle these facts. What you now want is to replace the government with another government who will probably follow the same policies.

Call a spade a spade

gandalf

whippet wrote: »

Call a spade a spade

Speculating on what the opposition would have done is just that and IS deflection from the actual facts.

However we can see what this FF governments have done including the lunacy that is the Bank Guarantee scheme.

FF ruined this country not what the opposition MIGHT have done.

whippet

gandalf wrote: »

Speculating on what the opposition would have done is just that and IS deflection from the actual facts.

However we can see what this FF governments have done including the lunacy that is the Bank Guarantee scheme.

FF ruined this country not what the opposition MIGHT have done.

you might see it as deflection ... but I see it as basis of forming a view for the next general election which I believe is very close.

Unlike the media driven electorate I will be going back over the last few years to see the policies that were suggested by the opposition ... an opposition's track record is as important as that of the government's.

Ignoring these facts to spite a government isn't a proper basis for informed voting.

questionmark?

Johnny Murphy FF wrote: »

There called Fine Gael, the party of idiots!

As opposed to Fianna Fail the developers party or maybe the banking party, or sure isn't bertie great even though everyone knows his corrupt party, the ray bourke party or maybe the Liam Lawlor party, the Galway i'll scratch your back if you scratch mine party, the charlie haughey party etc.. ect.. the list could go on forever!

Before you throw out ill thought out comments maybe you should look closer to home!

daltonm

My reading of his statement was that the next budget will be so severe that FF will be ousted.

They know that FF will not be in power in 12 months time because of the budget and simply will not put their name to it in any way shape or form.

whippet

daltonm wrote: »

My reading of his statement was that the next budget will be so severe that FF will be ousted.

They know that FF will not be in power in 12 months time because of the budget and simply will not put their name to it in any way shape or form.

you must have missed quite a bit of the statement, as he was quite clear on two facts

1- The Tallaght Accord was good for the country
2 - It cost FG votes

Therefore he isn't prepared to loose FG votes even if it is in the best interest of the country.

Callan57

meditraitor wrote: »

Why are they only doing it now when the country is foooked? sneaky shower of wasters tried to wriggle their way out of the mess they created and now when they know there is no way back they try to bring the opposition in to help out.

If I was the opposition I wouldnt lift a finger to help them criminals (FF/Greens), in less than a year we will be shot of them:mad:

As I understand it the Tallaght Strategy was agreed following a general election when the new govt had a mandate from the people.
It is in the National Interest that the FF/Greens be removed from office as soon as possible while there is some hope of avoiding any further damage to the country ... anyone who does anything to further their time is office is, IMO, guilty of treason or at least an accessory. In God's name get rid of them while we still have something salvageable!

gandalf

whippet wrote: »

Ignoring these facts to spite a government isn't a proper basis for informed voting.

And throwing your head in the sand and ignoring the actions of this Government is not informed voting at all.

Comparing promises from the opposition when they have not got the full picture on the state of the economy is not informed voting at all either

daltonm

whippet wrote: »

you must have missed quite a bit of the statement, as he was quite clear on two facts

1- The Tallaght Accord was good for the country
2 - It cost FG votes

Therefore he isn't prepared to loose FG votes even if it is in the best interest of the country.

I missed none of the statement - but thank you for proving my point.

Despite the Tallaght accord being good for the country FG lost votes. How will they fare when FF bring in their "4 year" strategy - which they will maka a bolix of and which could tie any future gov to?

I am no fan of FG - but they have taken the wise choice of stepping away. Otherwise if they get into power and have to implement it they won't last a wet day - why? Because they backed it.

This government had 2 years to sort out the banks - they screwed up.

They now have 4 weeks to work out a 4 year plan? God save us.

Step away from it?


I'd be running for the hills.

Liam Byrne

whippet wrote: »

Unlike the media driven electorate......

Anything that starts with that phrase is making inaccurate presumptions based on a flawed superiority complex and is therefore rendered invalid.

How can you possibly assume that anyone who has a different view to yours is "media driven electorate" ?

Woe betide anyone who actually makes up their own mind and has a different view to yours, eh ? I mean, how could they possibly have evaluated the fact that regardless of overall policies, the methods of implementation might have varied, the people installed in key positions might have varied, and they mightn't have had the urge to bail out their mates; all of which would still be possibilities even if the core policy were just as flawed as FF's.

As the song goes....."it ain't what you do it's the way that you do it, that's what gets results".

Might take note of that phrase, though; it must be handy when you want to dismiss an opposing view.

whippet

gandalf wrote: »

And throwing your head in the sand and ignoring the actions of this Government is not informed voting at all.

Comparing promises from the opposition when they have not got the full picture on the state of the economy is not informed voting at all either

I am not burying my head in the sand ... I know what the government did / didn't do ... you can't not but know. But there has been so little exposure of what the opposition's policies were.

Are you trying to say that the opposition had no way of knowing that there was a massive property bubble ready to burst? They had no idea ho dependent we were on the property market for the tax take? It was only a couple of years ago when they were looking to stimulate the property market when prices were falling at a tiny rate.

don't bury your head in the sand when looking at the incompetence of the alternative.

Liam Byrne

gandalf wrote: »

Already being discussed lads.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056049827

Already being discussed, but not phrased like that!

I want to know if the phrasing above is (a) what Enda ACTUALLY said or (b) biased spin on what he said.

gandalf

I believe the opposition were in favour of letting Anglo & Irish Nationwide sink below the waves which I believe would have put us in a far better position than we are in. It would have also sent a clear signal to the banking sector that you mess up big enough you will be allowed to fail.

Instead we have a government protecting a bank that was used mainly by developers and sponsors of their party. Now the nation is at the mercy of International Bondholders with the IMF in the background because of the inability, short-sightedness or worse of the Fianna Fail party and their new partners in crime the Greens.

whippet

gandalf wrote: »

I believe the opposition were in favour of letting Anglo & Irish Nationwide sink below the waves which I believe would have put us in a far better position than we are in. It would have also sent a clear signal to the banking sector that you mess up big enough you will be allowed to fail.

Instead we have a government protecting a bank that was used mainly by developers and sponsors of their party. Now the nation is at the mercy of International Bondholders with the IMF in the background because of the inability, short-sightedness or worse of the Fianna Fail party and their new partners in crime the Greens.

it was with the benefit of hindsight that the opposition suggested that, when the horse had already bolted.

its easy to be right after the fact.

My issue with the media driven hysteria is captured by the headlines in almost all the printed media describing that lunatic with the cement truck a Hero.

First off, in any other country he would have been shot before getting near the national parliament with an out of control HGV.

Secondly, he is a developer who borrowed 3.5m quid from Anglo to build a hotel .. he can't pay it back ... its gob****es like him that have the country in a mess. Yes the banks are to blame but he probably had an idea that he would have cleared a million to his arse pocket from the hotel ... but now he's angry because the bank wants his money back. And across the nation he is held up as a hero ........spare me.

I have a good friend who is a small time developer, he made good money during the good times but since the bust is struggling badly. When it became clear he sold his house, had to let 30 staff go, swapped the range rover for a transit van and is now making a very modest living doing garage conversions and house refurbs. He is paying every penny back that he borrowed. Sweeping statement that all developers are the root off all evil bug me .. they are not all the same.

Liam Byrne

whippet wrote: »

it was with the benefit of hindsight that the opposition suggested that, when the horse had already bolted.

What ? That's a downright lie.

The opposition proposed Anglo & INBS be cut loose AT THE TIME OF THE GUARANTEE.

As did Merrill Lynch - the consultants that FF hired - AT THE TIME.

johngalway

whippet wrote: »

Secondly, he is a developer who borrowed 3.5m quid from Anglo to build a hotel .. he can't pay it back ... its gob****es like him that have the country in a mess. Yes the banks are to blame but he probably had an idea that he would have cleared a million to his arse pocket from the hotel ... but now he's angry because the bank wants his money back. And across the nation he is held up as a hero ........spare me.

And nothing at all to do with a Government who gave tax breaks to developers, rightly, to build hotels when needed, and very wrongly were too weak willed to stop those same tax breaks, despite everyone knowing that we don't actually need a 57 bedroom so called 5* hotel at the end of every boreen? That Government you mean?

The Raven.

whippet wrote: »

My issue with the media driven hysteria is captured by the headlines in almost all the printed media describing that lunatic with the cement truck a Hero.

First off, in any other country he would have been shot before getting near the national parliament with an out of control HGV.

Secondly, he is a developer who borrowed 3.5m quid from Anglo to build a hotel .. he can't pay it back ... its gob****es like him that have the country in a mess. Yes the banks are to blame but he probably had an idea that he would have cleared a million to his arse pocket from the hotel ... but now he's angry because the bank wants his money back. And across the nation he is held up as a hero ........spare me.

I agree.

I have a good friend who is a small time developer, he made good money during the good times but since the bust is struggling badly. When it became clear he sold his house, had to let 30 staff go, swapped the range rover for a transit van and is now making a very modest living doing garage conversions and house refurbs. He is paying every penny back that he borrowed. Sweeping statement that all developers are the root off all evil bug me .. they are not all the same.

Is your friend a developer or a builder? The two are not always synonymous.

SeaFields

This is comical. Its the latest FF spin campaign. This week they mortgaged generations of Irish to their banking mess. Now its all about the opposition helping them from now on. Do the country a favour and just call and election. Let us decide how WE the people want to "go forward".

gandalf

whippet wrote: »

it was with the benefit of hindsight that the opposition suggested that, when the horse had already bolted.

Nope as already has been stated they did it at the time of the Guarantee.

But I guess you haven't read that far on your opposition investigations yet eh

whippet

gandalf wrote: »

Nope as already has been stated they did it at the time of the Guarantee.

But I guess you haven't read that far on your opposition investigations yet eh

Actually at the time of the bank guarantee announcement Enda Kenny's main concern was that banks that we had not covered would see funds flowing out the door and it would be open to legal challenges from competitor banks.

Boskowski

It's part of that political party bullsh1t in our beloved democratic systems isn't it?

"I like what you propose, I would have done so myself had I thought of it, hell it might even benefit the people, but no way I'm going to support it now that you came up with it."

Liam Byrne

whippet wrote: »

Actually at the time of the bank guarantee announcement Enda Kenny's main concern was that banks that we had not covered would see funds flowing out the door and it would be open to legal challenges from competitor banks.

Er - worrying whether it would be open to legal challenges implies that he was at least considering it, unlike FF who ignored it in the Merrill Lynch report.

flutered

Johnny Murphy FF wrote: »

There called Fine Gael, the party of idiots!

better a party of idiots, than a party that has driven our country to its knees,
i think it was tom t hall aka the storyteller who wrote the following
when your running down my country
man, your walking
on the fighting side of me
no amount of spin, smoke and mirrors that the dff come up with, which they are so good at it, will change the minds of the people,
remember we will not forget.

maringo

FF PDs GREENS have been governing in the national interest - at least that's what I understand a government is supposed to do - FF for the last 13 - years and look where they got us to or as they like to say …"we are where we are" - don't you just love that phrase …

Benito

I haven't read the Times, yet. Kenny may be an idiot but, another national strategy agreement would be the kiss of death to the opposition parties. I don't know who flew this kite but, given what fianna fail did with the structures of the last strategy, they'll only pull in the suckers and spread the blame of their own f***-ups and then they will trully be able to say...we are where we are and ...we're all in this together. Noone will bite this rotten cherry...............if they have any sense, that is

Benito

whippet wrote: »

not quite true

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1002/tax.html

In most West European Democracies, the Opposition have access to the same up to date information as the Government. Not here! Fianna Fail is laying a spiders web to intice the opposition. they will decline. Since the banking crisis they have drip fed us what they think we are privileged to hear.

They are going to show us now the true picture? Ye right!