Bad ammo??

patsat

As I have said before I recently bought a second hand remy 700 sps stainless in 22-250

It is set up with a leupold vx-III and burris extreme tactical rings. The rifle is in good condition (like new) and the dealer said only about 4 boxes of ammo went through it.

He recommended using winchester supreme 55gr as he said thats what the previous user was using and was getting good groups with them...

So off I went yesterday to zero the rifle but the best I could do was about a 5 inch group at 100 yards :eek::eek::eek: Just incase it was me I let a friend fire who would be a better shot yet he was the same...:rolleyes:

Then with my .270 I put 3 shots touching each other at 100 yards so that eliminates us! If the ammo doesn't suit the gun could it be possibly that bad???

Tackleberrywho

patsat wrote: »

As I have said before I recently bought a second hand remy 700 sps stainless in 22-250

It is set up with a leupold vx-III and burris extreme tactical rings. The rifle is in good condition (like new) and the dealer said only about 4 boxes of ammo went through it.

He recommended using winchester supreme 55gr as he said thats what the previous user was using and was getting good groups with them...

So off I went yesterday to zero the rifle but the best I could do was about a 5 inch group at 100 yards :eek::eek::eek: Just incase it was me I let a friend fire who would be a better shot yet he was the same...:rolleyes:

Then with my .270 I put 3 shots touching each other at 100 yards so that eliminates us! If the ammo doesn't suit the gun could it be possibly that bad???

NEVER take the word of a used car salesman or a dealer!
Inspect the bore.
5 inches is a joke for .22-250, they can get tighter than that @600!

back to the dealer i would go!

johngalway

I'd try different scope + mounts.

If it's not that, have ye checked the crown? Does the stock or anything else touch the barrel/mod when shooting?

patsat

johngalway wrote: »

I'd try different scope + mounts.

If it's not that, have ye checked the crown? Does the stock or anything else touch the barrel/mod when shooting?

Barrel is not free floated but neither is my .270.

I will ring the dealer shortly and tell him, may try a few different brands of ammo and a different scope... the crown and barrel look perfect its as if the rifle is brand new....

johngalway

patsat wrote: »

Barrel is not free floated but neither is my .270.

I will ring the dealer shortly and tell him, may try a few different brands of ammo and a different scope... the crown and barrel look perfect its as if the rifle is brand new....

I would try those options. If they don't work then bring it back. Did the dealer make any statement on it's accuracy when you were looking at it? A good man with a shotgun can group slugs tighter than that at 100 yards.

BUACHAILL

Yeah I would suspect its ammo or scope !! Try out a few and see how you go ! failing that bring it back to your dealer

patsat

He told me the previous owner was getting touching groups with the mentioned ammo... :rolleyes:

BUACHAILL

patsat wrote: »

He told me the previous owner was getting touching groups with the mentioned ammo... :rolleyes:

what ammo is it ?

sfakiaman

Did you check if the stock bolts were tight. I had a similar problem a couple of years ago where a stock had shrunk due to central heating and the bolts were barely finger tight. Check there is no movement in the scope mounts at the same time.

Tackleberrywho

patsat wrote: »

He told me the previous owner was getting touching groups with the mentioned ammo... :rolleyes:

Your dealer was not GS by any chance!!:D:D

55grain should work well in a remmy, 5 inches is a loose scope, or a shi*e barrel, or a barrel touching the stock intermittently, the SPS stock is not great, but it is much better than 5" @100

deerhunter1

johngalway wrote: »

I'd try different scope + mounts.

If it's not that, have ye checked the crown? Does the stock or anything else touch the barrel/mod when shooting?

Ya try the scope off the 270

patsat

Ammo is http://www.winchester.com/Products/rifle-ammunition/supreme/ballistic-silvertip/Pages/default.aspx...not cheap by any means!

Myself and friend made sure the rifle was assembled correctly, scope was tight. I just laser boresighted the rifle and the scope was not shifting in relation to the laser.... I tried this with an old scope which was not holding zero and it showed the scope moving.

The dealer in question is Sean Harding, which is a well respected fella so I don't want to blame him......yet!:D

when i get the chance I will swop both scopes onto both rifles and see will the problem follow the scope.

Cass

The most common reasons for poor grouping that i've come across are;

• Loose mounts/rings (especially Opti-lock)
• Faulty scope. Crosshairs "jump" with each shot so your POA remains the same, but POI moves.
• Crown. Either poorly manufactured or "pitted" from use.
• Barrel burned out. Usually with a few thousand rounds so probably not the case here.
• Stock touching barrel. Causes poor harmonics and effects the shot.
• Poor ammo. As with the case in hand the gun simply does not like them.

The fact that the previous owner was getting good results means nothing. If he was firing one bullet at a time and loosely striking his targets then the rifle was never really zeroed. I know a lad that had a .220 swift. Swore blind to me that is was zeroed. I checked the rifle myself. Ranged 100yds. Set up target. Fired and it was 2 inches left and 3 high. Answer i got, well it hits when i fire it.

Anyway, solutions may include;



A) Clean the rifle. I mean clean it thoroughly. Use Butch's Bore shine, Forest foam, Hoppe's, M-Pro 7 whatever, but you want the rifle bore clean as a whistle. A recommended routine is.

1. Clamp rifle and remove bolt.
2. Apply (for talks sake) M-Pro 7 bore gel on a soaked patch.
3. Bristle brush using stiff Nylon brush.
4. Use soaked M-Pro 7 patch to push out loose fouling.
5. Run another soaked patch to reline bore.
6. Leave rifle to sit for about 5 minutes.
7. Brush out with bristle brush.
8. Run oiled patches continuously until they come out clean and wet.
9. Run dry patches until no oil is left in bore.
10. Mop out with clean dry mop.
11. Repeat process for serious fouling. Each cleanser will have its own process.

Check the rings and mounts. Don't just "shake" them actually take them apart and remount them making sure everything is tight as it goes back.

C) Clamp the rifle when firing. If you can get a gun vice use it. You are only checking for faults so for now how you shoot is irrelevant. Clamp the gun well and fire groups of 5. Allow to cool between groups. This will give you groups and also once the rifle cannot move you will see if the scope cosshair is "jumping" between shots.

D) Run a fine cloth or piece of paper up under the barrel. It should go to the action without being stopped by the stock barrel touching. If it does not there is contact and it could be effecting the harmonics. A bedding job will solve this.

E) If the crown looks "pitted", worn, uneven, rough then this could be causing spread in your groups. The solution is a re-crown. also a good idea even if the crown is fine. Will improve grouping, however slight.

F) Poor ammo can easily, but not cheaply, be esolved by buying differnt ammo at different weights and with different bullet heads and trying them. Again shoot groups of 5. These give you the best possible overview of the bullets performance in your rifle. Try Remington 45gr JHP, Hornady 50gr A-Max, Federal 55gr Power Shok, and lastly Federal V-Shok 43gr. I'm assuming its a 1:12 twist so will like the lighter rounds.

patsat

Thanks lads for the info i'll put the leupold on the .270 and see is it holding zero, after that I'll look towards more ammo after a good cleaning.

Tackleberrywho

patsat wrote: »

Thanks lads for the info i'll put the leupold on the .270 and see is it holding zero, after that I'll look towards more ammo after a good cleaning.

Use Hoppes Benchrest as it may be copper fouled, I have friends who had similar experiences with .220 swifts

http://www.hoppes.com/products/bench_rest9.html

And inspect the bore, if it looks like below , you have bother!


and does the crown look like this?

patsat

Thanks tack, the crown is the very same as off a new rifle, same with the barrel...to the eye.

The rifle is as good as new bar that its shooting s**t! I'll update ye in the next few days

It wasn't me!

It'll be the SPS stock, almost guaranteed. Bad ammo will generally not give groups that bad but any stock contact will, easily. If you're putting a lot of weight on the stock and gripping tightly or if you're using a bipod, you could change how the stock reacts to the shot. Now, obviously you could buy some more ammo to test and see whether you get different results, but realistically, you're much better off sanding down any contact points in the stock. It won't take you long or cost you anything. That's my thinking anyway.

bunny shooter

As IWM says it's the SPS stock.

Bin it an buy another stock and I guarantee you'll have no more trouble

patsat

Maybe a Pse for Xmas I reckon!!

Why couldn't remmys be straight forward like a cz!

It wasn't me!

patsat wrote: »

Maybe a Pse for Xmas I reckon!!

Why couldn't remmys be straight forward like a cz!

Because then Tack would have nothing to "pimp" as the bloody thing would just work in the first place.

Cass

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Because then Tack would have nothing to "pimp" as the bloody thing would just work in the first place.

:D LMAO












Sorry no offence, but thats funny.

tac foley

Over here in UK since about the beginning of the year we have been having problems with Winchester centrefire ammunition, particularly in .223Rem, .243 and .270 calibres.

Apart from peculiar noises on firing, and a few fragmented primers, most of the problems are case-body related, with the case splitting at the neck both vertically on the neck and axially at the shoulder. Dealers have been taking the stuff back and exchanging it for other makes that are less 'exciting' to shoot.

tac

patsat

Ha god I hate to hear the words pimping and rifles in the same sentence just sounds childish!

TBH I wasn't expecting amazing results, but is less than 5 inches too much to ask!

Tackleberrywho

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Because then Tack would have nothing to "pimp" as the bloody thing would just work in the first place.

hardy har har

Tackleberrywho

patsat wrote: »

Ha god I hate to hear the words pimping and rifles in the same sentence just sounds childish!

TBH I wasn't expecting amazing results, but is less than 5 inches too much to ask!

Pat, if you want to blame the stock, then fix the stock, my Remington VTR which has a very6 similar stock to an sps can produce serious groups, after "I" free floated it, however before that it was 1" @100 now it is less

Childish or not, my pimped Rile works, 5 " @ 100 is appalling

Tackleberrywho

A Pimped Remington can do this.

5" is OMG as Jedward might say!!

patsat

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Pat, if you want to blame the stock, then fix the stock, my Remington VTR which has a very6 similar stock to an sps can produce serious groups, after "I" free floated it, however before that it was 1" @100 now it is less

Childish or not, my pimped Rile works, 5 " @ 100 is appalling

Sorry if I sounded harsh tack but it's the word I dislike, I know your rifles are very accurate thanks to the jobs you have done on them... However I think the work done deserves a better name than pimping!

Just my opinion but pimping to me brings to mind pimp my ride and done up corsa's!And work on a rifle is on a different level to that!

Tackleberrywho

patsat wrote: »

Sorry if I sounded harsh tack but it's the word I dislike, I know your rifles are very accurate thanks to the jobs you have done on them... However I think the work done deserves a better name than pimping!

Just my opinion but pimping to me brings to mind pimp my ride and done up corsa's!And work on a rifle is on a different level to that!

Well as I am a 3L man I have no affiliation with Corsas

Anyway, try the recoil lug job, the putty is only €10 and if you need any tips on how to do it give me a shout.

Fairly simple,
1.take rifle apart
2.wrap tape around barrel on foreend part (until the barrel is ~ 2.5mm over stock)
3.fill recoil lug slot with putty.
4.Tighten up and leave to set over night.
5.Next day remove screws and gingerly remove stock from action.
6.Remove tape.
7.Reinstall action into stock.
You should now be free floating

Take rifle out and fire a 5 shot group.
You should see a marked improvement.

fish slapped

Sorry lads, it may just be me but:

The rifle was sold as an accurate rifle " groups touching" at 100 meters, by the dealer. this covers the rifle, mounts and scope.

Even if it did not like the ammo the groups would not be this bad.

Also are we asking too much to be sold a clean rifle??

If we buy a rifle scope combo from a dealer, are we expecting too much for the gun to be clean and capable of doing what the dealer is saying it'll do.

Just my opinion.

patsat

Correct! I bought the gun with bases and mounts, I put the scope on top of it myself so I'm gonna try and rule that out before jumping the gun!

Cass

I know Sean very well and i will vouch for him personally. I have never known him to take in or even pass on a gun with issues. He wouldn't sacrifice his reputation for a quick sale. He does clean the guns, but lets face it with 150+ firearms its not possible to clean all them to the standard some would expect.

Also lets look at the person trading the firearm. If they leave in a dirty gun then it speaks volumes as to how that person treated the firearm during their ownership. Its like a person buying a new car. When you drive your own into the forecourt you have it cleaned inside and out if only for that day. Those that don't really don't care about the vehicle. Same applies to firearms.

Another issue i have is with people exaggerating their firearms ability. Too many times i have heard, seen and read about one whole groups at 100/200 even 300 yards. Just because your rifle can do this once or twice does not mean it is a one whole group rifle. I have seen some outstanding groups at various distances, but even the shooter will admit to it being a once off or fluke. A rifles true ability (and the shooter for that matter) is the groups they shoot day in, day out and consistantly. Plus one person with the rifle set up for them will not suit the next person. Thats why out of all the rifles i've bought the 2 second hand ones i got were immediately stripped down, cleaned, and then scope remounted and adjusted for my position.


I'm not having a go at anyone here, but i see it all the time especially in newbies. They buy a second hand rifle and think its as easy as lying down and putting one bullet on top of the other. Its not. Again no disrepsect intended to anyone here. These are just general comments and observations.

Patsat has gotten a large amount of ideas here that may aid in reducing the group size. He seems to know his stuff so thats why i'm making a point that none of what i say is directed at anyone. If all else fails return to Sean and knowing him he will not hesitate to get into the problem with you.

patsat

I rang him yesterday and again he vouched fo the accuracy of the gun, We agreed that I would make sure the scope was ok and after that if the problem still persists I would go back to him and talk about it. Can't ask for anymore than that!!

I'll let ye know how I get on in the near future, I'll update this thread then

poulo6.5

I got a couple of boxes of win Winchester for the tikka .223 an I might as well have bin throwing them down range for all the good they did.
They are the only ammo that my tikka didn't like.

If I was you I would be taking the scope off and cleaning everything and refitting it and use loketight. Worth a try
And get rid of that Winchester ammo

tac foley

poulo6.5 wrote: »

I got a couple of boxes of win Winchester for the tikka .223 an I might as well have bin throwing them down range for all the good they did....

Ahem - see post #22 above - Quote - 'Over here in UK since about the beginning of the year we have been having problems with Winchester centrefire ammunition, particularly in .223Rem, .243 and .270 calibres.'

tac

The Big Fella

What was wrong with the rifle after all patsat? I seem to be having the exact same problem with my cz527 at the moment. Its a .223 and is in immaculate condition. Ive millet mounts and a swift premier 6-24x50 scope just fitted. Its nearly grouping worse than yours at a 100.

Half-cocked

Its been mentioned somewhere earlier, but my first suspect would be copper fouling. I've seen very accurate rifles very quickly start spraying bullets alover the place when the copper builds up. A bad dose of copper will require several cleans to get rid of with suitable solvents. I use M Pro 7, but there's lots of good ones out there.

patsat

With a different scope and different ammo I got a 1.5 inch group, but have not tried it again with the leupold.

It's not worrying me much any way because since then I've fitted an aids,timney trigger and getting a recrown so hope that will improve it vastly!

I will try it then with My bushnell and my leupold to see if it was the scope that was wrong.

The Big Fella

Well lads, I took the swift scope off the gun and put the old hawke scope on it and I shot a 5 shot group at a 100 yards. It was a 1.75'' agroup and Im getting a one hole group at 50 yards. Im using remington 50 grain hollow points. I was using 55 grain hornady v maxes before and they shot a bit better.

patsat

Just to update how this rifle has progressed.

Fired a shots with it today at paper using a handful of Hornady bullets (not sure of weight or make) that Sean Harding gave me to try out in the rifle.

I used my Leupold Vx3 even tho I still wasnt sure if it was holding zero or not.:rolleyes: At 100 yards in a fairly strong wind I was getting groups under an inch.

Big relief for me knowing that the leupold I bought actually works! :cool:

Once the evening gets longer I'll try a few different boxes of ammo and see what happens! I'll throw up pics when i get the chance!