"Short Ireland!" - Lenihan ridiculed by international investors on Citigroup call

loldog

Another trader is said to have made "chimp sounds".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/8038000/Irelands-finance-minister-Brian-Lenihan-ridiculed-by-City-investors.html

"The call was a farce and as far as I'm concerned this is just another part of the mess Ireland has got itself into," said one participant in the call.

The government has been bending over backwards to appease the international markets, even making it a cornerstone of reversing our decision on the Lisbon Treaty.

Ireland's hard won sovereignty has become a commodity to be gambled with by the spivs in their banking casinos.

How could it have been any worse if we had let Anglo and AIB fail?

pablo_escobar

Ireland is owned by investors on wallstreet.
It has no sovereignty.

gollem_1975

loldog wrote: »

Another trader is said to have made "chimp sounds".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/8038000/Irelands-finance-minister-Brian-Lenihan-ridiculed-by-City-investors.html

The government has been bending over backwards to appease the international markets, even making it a cornerstone of reversing our decision on the Lisbon Treaty.

Ireland's hard won sovereignty has become a commodity to be gambled with by the spivs in their banking casinos.

ah the good old torygraph.. never one to pass up the opportunity to have a go at Paddy. the Birts are in a similar situation themselves and certain elements in their media will paint us to be in a worse situation to make them feel better about themselves (they also have an anti-EU agenda)

loldog wrote: »

How could it have been any worse if we had let Anglo and AIB fail?

well if you are a depositor in one of those institutions then I think you might know the answer to that question.

magick

pablo_escobar wrote: »

Ireland is owned by investors on wallstreet.
It has no sovereignty.

Just replace "wallstreet" with "money" and you can put every country on the planet into that category.

gollem_1975

Shams wrote: »

Just replace "wallstreet" with "money" and you can put every country on the planet into that category.

Ireland is owned by

"investors on money"

??

pablo_escobar

Shams wrote: »

Just replace "wallstreet" with "money" and you can put every country on the planet into that category.

well, i hope you don't assume i'm anti-american with my comment.
'wallstreet' isn't synonymous with 'patriotism'

i think you'll find wallstreet own most of the planet at this stage...

mike65

gollem_1975 wrote: »

ah the good old torygraph.. never one to pass up the opportunity to have a go at Paddy. the Birts are in a similar situation themselves and certain elements in their media will paint us to be in a worse situation to make them feel better about themselves (they also have an anti-EU agenda)

All they did was report whats happening, or would you prefer that they didn't? Be interesting to see if the Irish media will report what happened.

The "Brits" are not in as bad a situtation either while they have to deal with the current account deficit (which is now shrinking), the UK banks are in profit again. The UK government ownership of RBS will turn a handsome profit in a few years time. No chance of that here.

bijapos

Those people on Wall St and their equivalents in other markets around the world are the scum of the earth imo.

gollem_1975

mike65 wrote: »

All they did was report whats happening, or would you prefer that they didn't? Be interesting to see if the Irish media will report what happened.

The "Brits" are not in as bad a situtation either while they have to deal with the current account deficit (which is now shrinking), the UK banks are in profit again. The UK government ownership of RBS will turn a handsome profit in a few years time. No chance of that here.

hands up I don't know much about the situation there in the UK ( i don't know much about here either ) but the situation in the UK is still far from ideal ( and parts of the UK never had a boom in the first place.. its grim up north[of england] )

In my opinion the hands of the british banks are far from clean on the crisis here in Ireland ( and don't get me started on the 800 years ) ...if my memory serves me they were the first to introduce the 100% mortgages

20Cent

Excellent article about how they "earn" their money.
Biggest recipients of taxpayer money every but its the single mother, the sick and the poor who have to pay these guys.

Wall Sts Bailout Hustle.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/12697/64868

bijapos

20Cent wrote: »

Wall Sts Bailout Hustle.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/12697/64868

Read that before, excellent article.

kaymin

gollem_1975 wrote: »

well if you are a depositor in one of those institutions then I think you might know the answer to that question.

Yes, better off - you seem to forget the €100k government guarantee. The politicians ignore it aswell - part of the scaremongering tactics used to try to portray that their actions are for the good of Joe Citizen.

southsiderosie

gollem_1975 wrote: »

ah the good old torygraph.. never one to pass up the opportunity to have a go at Paddy. the Birts are in a similar situation themselves and certain elements in their media will paint us to be in a worse situation to make them feel better about themselves (they also have an anti-EU agenda).

Oh, please. The dogs on the street know Ireland's finances are ****ed.

If the Telegraph is too Tory for you, try the Guardian: they all but called Brian Lenihan a liar yesterday.

And Ireland IS is a worse position than Britain, given the size of the economy and the fact that they don't control their own currency.

mike65

gollem_1975 wrote: »

In my opinion the hands of the british banks are far from clean on the crisis here in Ireland ( and don't get me started on the 800 years ) ...if my memory serves me they were the first to introduce the 100% mortgages

Well the 800 years reference gives the game away methinks. First Active was the first bank to introduce the 100% mortgage here (they were Irish part of the Royal bank of Scotland group)

DebDynamite

The Dept of Finance have denied the jeering:

A SPOKESMAN FOR Finance Minister Brian Lenihan has described as “pathetic and inaccurate” a story by the Daily Telegraph which claims that Finance Minister Brian Lenihan was jeered, heckled and subjected to chimp sounds during a conference call with Citigroup investors.

The spokesperson pointed out that the newspaper which published the story was not on the call, and that other publications – which had been invited to participate – did not report on any jeering or heckling.

The spokesman admitted that there were some technical problems with the call, but insisted the Minister was not heckled. “You wouldn’t have been able to hear anyone because there was so much feedback,” the spokesman said.

Further on in the article a guy who was in on the call said:

"Unlike the rest of the posters here or the journalist I was on this call.
What isn’t explained properly was the hundreds of callers from whatever location they were based were live. So any noise whether it was moving a chair, coughing, arranging a trade, etc could be heard. So the ‘chimp noise’ sounded very much like a ring tone..there were dozens of rings tones, coughs chatter and general noise from dozens of trading floors, dealing rooms and conference rooms. It was an utter mess of so to say Lenihan was ‘heckled’ was overstating it. It wasn’t that organised. It basically became white noise with occasional noises, words and sentences cutting across. Any ‘ridicule’ was largely directed at Citigroup’s shambolic organisation."

http://home.thejournal.ie/dept-of-finance-denies-lenihan-jeered-in-conference-call-2010-10/?h

AlekSmart

The spokesman admitted that there were some technical problems with the call, but insisted the Minister was not heckled. “You wouldn’t have been able to hear anyone because there was so much feedback,” the spokesman said.

Oh dear,feedback...how very Jimi Hendrix,ish.....perhaps not a great way to portray a Knowledge Based Ireland awash with hyper-fast fibre-optic Broadband cabled Houses of Parliament...

Or.... perhaps Brian was on a mobile at a location i`m aware of 50K from An Lár where oner has to sit on a particular spot on a forestry wall to accquire a signal...:rolleyes: (and yes,there`s often a queue ! )

However,it`ll all be fine once we get the oul PostCodes up and runnin.....That`ll show them smart alek`s on Wall Street.

PeterIanStaker

I hate agreeing with anything in the Torygraph, but he deserves all the ridicule he gets, if indeed he was heckled.

southsiderosie

I loathe the bankers, but if this story is true, fair play to them. At least someone is willing to tell the government that their figures are absurd.

dvpower

southsiderosie wrote: »

I loathe the bankers, but if this story is true, fair play to them. At least someone is willing to tell the government that their figures are absurd.

Did they tell him that his figures are absurd?

Sticky_Fingers

southsiderosie wrote: »

I loathe the bankers, but if this story is true, fair play to them. At least someone is willing to tell the government that their figures are absurd.

They have right to disagree but their complete lack of respect for our MoF is a smack in the face to the country. They were taking part in the conference call in a professional capacity and should have conduced themselves in a more civilised manner. If I was their boss I would have sacked them for this carry on, it is no way to conduct business.

gollem_1975

kaymin wrote: »

Yes, better off - you seem to forget the €100k government guarantee. The politicians ignore it aswell - part of the scaremongering tactics used to try to portray that their actions are for the good of Joe Citizen.

:eek: yes and if the banks fail the government will have to stump up the money for this guarantee ! there isn't a reserve fund just waiting on the sidelines to pay out every depositor if a bank fails.

from where they are going to get the money to pay these depositors is anyones guess.. they won't be able to go to the bond holders because they'll have been burnt already.

I'm feckin livid with what the bankers have done.

do you REALLY think it would be a good idea to let the banks fail ?

PeterIanStaker

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

They have right to disagree but their complete lack of respect for our MoF is a smack in the face to the country. .

Let them smack away, he deserves it and more.

Sticky_Fingers

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

So is voting for FF, but people still do it.

As is their democratic right under our present system. You can disagree with them and call them every name under the sun but you will come off looking childish and arrogant. I don't like this government but if I was ever to meet them in a professional capacity I would keep my opinions to myself. Even if I met them on the street as a private citizen I see no point in hurling personal abuse at them.

PeterIanStaker

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

As is their democratic right under our present system. You can disagree with them and call them every name under the sun but you will come off looking childish and arrogant. I don't like this government but if I was ever to meet them in a professional capacity I would keep my opinions to myself. Even if I met them on the street as a private citizen I see no point in hurling personal abuse at them.

If I met them on the street I'd at least be honest and tell them that they well and truly have made a hames of things.

The ones who are childish and arrogant are the people in power who have their heads in the sand and keep spouting rhetoric about turning a corner and magically generating 300,000 imaginary jobs.

Having said that, I believe the situation as it stands is unfixable, and I have no ideas on how to rectify it, but at least I'll admit that straight up, instead of wasting anyone's time.

gollem_1975

mike65 wrote: »

Well the 800 years reference gives the game away methinks. First Active was the first bank to introduce the 100% mortgage here (they were Irish part of the Royal bank of Scotland group)

tbh the 800 years reference was a joke on my part my apologies if it was in bad taste or just plain not funny.

but my point about the UK banks hand in the crisis still stands

I know it was just business but without a doubt the reckless lending ramped up another couple of notches as a result of increased competition in the Irish market with the entry of foreign banks.

thankfully we don't have to bail RBS, BOS, Northern Rock, Halifax et al out too.

I also stand by my view that certain elements of the english media do publish material about other countries to make their readership feel better about things that are happening in their own country. As an english person have you ever seen this trend or am I way off the mark ?

In the end of the day. Irish and UK press have the same objective.. sell newspapers.

gollem_1975

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

They have right to disagree but their complete lack of respect for our MoF is a smack in the face to the country. They were taking part in the conference call in a professional capacity and should have conduced themselves in a more civilised manner. If I was their boss I would have sacked them for this carry on, it is no way to conduct business.

1) lets not blow this out of proportion.. we are hearing a story second hand..i.e. we don't really know what happened.

2) second of all the investors are not representing a country.. if it was Angela Merkel , Berlusconi, Sarkosy etc. then that would be a different story.

3) I wonder what response he would have got on Chatroulette?

Yag reuoY

gollem_1975 wrote: »

tbh the 800 years reference was a joke on my part my apologies if it was in bad taste or just plain not funny.

but my point about the UK banks hand in the crisis still stands

I know it was just business but without a doubt the reckless lending ramped up another couple of notches as a result of increased competition in the Irish market with the entry of foreign banks.

thankfully we don't have to bail RBS, BOS, Northern Rock, Halifax et al out too.

I also stand by my view that certain elements of the english media do publish material about other countries to make their readership feel better about things that are happening in their own country. As an english person have you ever seen this trend or am I way off the mark ?

In the end of the day. Irish and UK press have the same objective.. sell newspapers.

Ireland is actually international news at the moment due to Anglo et al, it has nothing to do with a British media agenda.

How this government hasn't fallen at this stage I really don't know. FF rely on Greens and Independents so it's beyond incredible that they haven't been torn down. :eek:

I simply can't wait to evacuate this toxic state in November!

the_dark_side

you might say that now, but your tune could change if they started to go after people's savings to try and make up the deficit... I heard someone deeply involved in FF grumble about this well over a year ago.

gollem_1975

the_dark_side wrote: »

you might say that now, but your tune could change if they started to go after people's savings to try and make up the deficit... I heard someone deeply involved in FF grumble about this well over a year ago.

question: who is "you" and what is "that" ?

Sticky_Fingers

gollem_1975 wrote: »

1) lets not blow this out of proportion.. we are hearing a story second hand..i.e. we don't really know what happened.

True, there has been a statement from the government that the report in the Telegraph is inaccurate. If it is true then it is bad form on their part.

gollem_1975 wrote: »

2) second of all the investors are not representing a country.. if it was Angela Merkel , Berlusconi, Sarkosy etc. then that would be a different story.

The investors are insulting Ireland if it is true. The MoF is a representative of our government and state and even if you disagree with him or his stance if you are dealing with him in a professional capacity then some standards should be maintained.

gollem_1975 wrote: »

3) I wonder what response he would have got on Chatroulette?

This was'nt Chatroulette, this was a busness meeting. How would you feel if you had a meeting with your bank manager and he openly mocked you while you were trying to renegotiate a loan?

gollem_1975

Yag reuoY wrote: »

Ireland is actually international news at the moment due to Anglo et al, it has nothing to do with a British media agenda.

yes but how it is being reported in the british media DOES have something to do with their agenda , n'est pas ?

mike65

gollem_1975 wrote: »

tbh the 800 years reference was a joke on my part my apologies if it was in bad taste or just plain not funny.

fair enough

gollem_1975 wrote: »

but my point about the UK banks hand in the crisis still stands

I know it was just business but without a doubt the reckless lending ramped up another couple of notches as a result of increased competition in the Irish market with the entry of foreign banks.

thankfully we don't have to bail RBS, BOS, Northern Rock, Halifax et al out too.

I also stand by my view that certain elements of the english media do publish material about other countries to make their readership feel better about things that are happening in their own country. As an english person have you ever seen this trend or am I way off the mark ?

In the end of the day. Irish and UK press have the same objective.. sell newspapers.

I think the Irish are just (understandably) very prickly about what others think right now. You're all obsessed with what the neighbours think at the best of times! Now its hyper, that bastion of leftwing PC pro Irish thinking the Guardian is chock-a-block with articles and blogs like this one, Jay Leno features Brian Cowen looking drunk on his show, God knows what the Germans are saying on TV, radio and the www.boards.de type message boards.

gollem_1975

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

This was'nt Chatroulette, this was a busness meeting. How would you feel if you had a meeting with your bank manager and he openly mocked you while you were trying to renegotiate a loan?

lighten up will ya

Brian Lenihan has a thicker skin (you'd need to have it more than anything else to be in his game) than to be worried about being heckled by a few anonymous guys acting the eejit

now if a senior manager interrupted the call to say to one of these eejits, "smith see me in my office after this call" that would have been funny.

gollem_1975

mike65 wrote: »

fair enough



I think the Irish are just (understandably) very prickly about what others think right now. You're all obsessed with what the neighbours think at the best of times! Now its hyper, that bastion of leftwing PC pro Irish thinking the Guardian is chock-a-block with articles and blogs like this one, Jay Leno features Brian Cowen looking drunk on his show, God knows what the Germans are saying on TV, radio and the www.boards.de type message boards.

whats your opinion on this part of my post ?

I also stand by my view that certain elements of the english media do publish material about other countries to make their readership feel better about things that are happening in their own country. As an english person have you ever seen this trend or am I way off the mark ?

monkeypants

It just sounds to me like a really bad conference call. If the lines weren't muted, is as standard on such calls, then the background noise would have made the call completely unworkable. Who the hell was silly enough to set it up that way?

southsiderosie

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

They have right to disagree but their complete lack of respect for our MoF is a smack in the face to the country. They were taking part in the conference call in a professional capacity and should have conduced themselves in a more civilised manner. If I was their boss I would have sacked them for this carry on, it is no way to conduct business.

You've obviously never worked on a trading desk.

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

This was'nt Chatroulette, this was a busness meeting. How would you feel if you had a meeting with your bank manager and he openly mocked you while you were trying to renegotiate a loan?

IMO, traders and institutional investors would have been just as rude, if not more so, were this a corporation whose CFO kept trying to insist that things would be fine when they were bleeding revenue and customers.

The bottom line is that investors rely on accurate information in order to decide where to put their money. The Irish government has been fiddling with the debt figures and putting forth fanciful growth projections for months now; the recent ECB ruling on the bank liabilities debt made that clear. And the fact that Lenihan keep trying to say things aren't so bad out of one side of his mouth doesn't help. He is insulting the intelligence of anyone who has a basic grasp of public finance and/or can read a balance sheet.

loldog

southsiderosie wrote: »

He is insulting the intelligence of anyone who has a basic grasp of public finance and/or can read a balance sheet.

Intelligence? In the bankster industry? After having had to be bailed out to the tune of billions in scores of countries all over the world, I have a low opinion of the real intelligence of these hucksters and fraudsters.

Having to be bailed out by ordinary working people who are struggling to raise families, you would think they would have reflected somewhat on their own sense of self importance. Not a bit of it though, they're more insolent than ever.

If these guys were so sh*t hot and respectable, why do they need governments to step in to save their bonuses.

Get some perspective people. Banks have no compunction about repossessing your home if you can't balance your books, yet they face no real consequences at all when they screw things up completely for a fast buck...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqnHLDeedVg

gleep

loldog wrote: »

Intelligence? In the bankster industry? After having had to be bailed out to the tune of billions in scores of countries all over the world, I have a low opinion of the real intelligence of these hucksters and fraudsters.

Having to be bailed out by ordinary working people who are struggling to raise families , you would think they would have reflected somewhat on their own sense of self importance. Not a bit of it though, they're more insolent than ever.

If these guys were so sh*t hot and respectable, why do they need governments to step in to save their bonuses.

Get some perspective people. Banks have no compunction about repossessing your home if you can't balance your books, yet they face no real consequences at all when they screw things up completely for a fast buck...

The fact that they managed this con-job is a shining beacon of their intelligence. The fact that they can keep pulling it off is a shining beacon of how spineless and thick politicians are.

What they are doing is insanely immoral, but not without intelligence.

southsiderosie

loldog wrote: »

Intelligence? In the bankster industry? After having had to be bailed out to the tune of billions in scores of countries all over the world, I have a low opinion of the real intelligence of these hucksters and fraudsters.

Having to be bailed out by ordinary working people who are struggling to raise families, you would think they would have reflected somewhat on their own sense of self importance. Not a bit of it though, they're more insolent than ever.

If these guys were so sh*t hot and respectable, why do they need governments to step in to save their bonuses.

Get some perspective people. Banks have no compunction about repossessing your home if you can't balance your books, yet they face no real consequences at all when they screw things up completely for a fast buck...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqnHLDeedVg

When did I say anything about them being respectable? What I'm saying is that if they think someone is cooking the books, they will be savage.

In addition, not all banks needed a bailout, so let's not tar all of them with the same brush. Banco Santander is a good example; JP Morgan Chase another (the US government forced them to take TARP money).

The bottom line is banks want to make money. Some bankers do not mind taking down the entire financial system in their pursuit to make money, while others are more prudent. Much of this prudence comes from government regulation, which is why we are not hearing wild stories about bank bailouts in Canada or Spain. The Irish government chose not to regulate the banks; the Irish government sat by while the bubble grew and burst; the Irish government chose to shovel taxpayer money into bad banks like Anglo; and the Irish government is now choosing to extend the bank guarantee.

Just as banks will crack the whip against customers who get themselves into trouble and threaten their bottom line, governments can choose to crack the whip against entities that threaten the financial viability of the state. The banks did not make the Irish government choose saving bankers over saving workers. And now YOU are stuck with the bill.

I can't believe I am defending bankers, but in countries with well-regulated banking systems, you do not see these kinds of problems. And in countries with greater transparency in government matters and a good track record of being up front about the country's financial issues, you do not see the kind of raucous cat-calling that allegedly happened on the investor conference call.

kaymin

gollem_1975 wrote: »

:eek: yes and if the banks fail the government will have to stump up the money for this guarantee ! there isn't a reserve fund just waiting on the sidelines to pay out every depositor if a bank fails.

Like there's a reserve waiting in the sidelines for the much larger guarantee the government has committed us to?

gollem_1975 wrote: »

from where they are going to get the money to pay these depositors is anyones guess.. they won't be able to go to the bond holders because they'll have been burnt already.

Present and future taxpayers will pay for it. Bond holders aren't willing to lend to Ireland as it is - except at prohibitive interest rates.

gollem_1975 wrote: »

I'm feckin livid with what the bankers have done.

do you REALLY think it would be a good idea to let the banks fail ?

Yes - lenders will lend to those at a reasonable rate if they're a reasonable credit risk. If Ireland didn't bail out the banks then Ireland would still be a reasonable credit risk.

gollem_1975

Originally Posted by gollem_1975 wrote:

Well if you are a depositor in one of those institutions then I think you might know the answer to that question.

kaymin wrote: »

Yes, better off - you seem to forget the €100k government guarantee. The politicians ignore it aswell - part of the scaremongering tactics used to try to portray that their actions are for the good of Joe Citizen.

kaymin wrote: »

Like there's a reserve waiting in the sidelines for the much larger guarantee the government has committed us to?

I think you know the answer to that. the guarantee is there but the hope is that they will not be called on it ( my understanding is that even in normal operating conditions banks would not have the money to repay all their customers if they all wanted their money at once )

kaymin wrote: »

Present and future taxpayers will pay for it. Bond holders aren't willing to lend to Ireland as it is - except at prohibitive interest rates.

Aren't you are contradicting yourself.
bond holders ARE lending to us albeit at prohibitive interest rates. the taxpayers are paying for the interest on the money that has been borrowed.. the figure that I'm hearing is 1.5 billion a year. in comparison to the annual 19-22 billion deficit that 1.5 billion is manageable. its not as if the sky is falling in.
seeing the similarities between the guarantees and a confidence-trick is not particularly clever.. that is exactly what it is.. a gamble ( albeit a high stakes gamble) that they will never need to honour the guarantee.

kaymin wrote: »

Yes - lenders will lend to those at a reasonable rate if they're a reasonable credit risk. If Ireland didn't bail out the banks then Ireland would still be a reasonable credit risk.

phew.. have you got that in writing.. another view could be that if we burned these bond holders would anyone be willing to lend us money at ANY interest rate.. the truth is that you don't know the answer any more than I do.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

A Dub in Glasgo

Surely that should read "heads you win, tails we lose". Why was it perfectly rational?

BlaasForRafa

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Now if only we had laws in place that if they did that, they'd go in front of a firing squad...and I'm only being slightly facetious when I say that.

southsiderosie

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Now if only we had laws in place that if they did that, they'd go in front of a firing squad...and I'm only being slightly facetious when I say that.

I doubt anything that dramatic is necessary, but Canadian or Spanish-style banking laws might do the trick

Mr.Micro

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Of course the banks will lookout for themselves and their shareholders above patriotism, what is good for the country or even the decent thing..so long as the bank gets what it wants, money, profit and even survival in this case.

Since Lenihan/Government offered a bailout, the banks took it hand and all, and Lenihan failed or did he even try to exact any real conditions or get information, even the real extent of borrowing and exposure to other loans. He should have clobbered them when he had them on the ropes looking to be saved. The banks know that they are indispensable so they win win win and now are trying to stay private despite looking for more funds. Can they have it both ways......yes they can as this is Ireland where conventional rules do not apply.

kaymin

gollem_1975 wrote: »

I think you know the answer to that. the guarantee is there but the hope is that they will not be called on it ( my understanding is that even in normal operating conditions banks would not have the money to repay all their customers if they all wanted their money at once ) .

But the guarantee is being called upon - the banks are insolvent and Ireland is shoring them up pursuant to the guarantee provided.

gollem_1975 wrote: »

Aren't you are contradicting yourself.
bond holders ARE lending to us albeit at prohibitive interest rates. the taxpayers are paying for the interest on the money that has been borrowed.. the figure that I'm hearing is 1.5 billion a year. in comparison to the annual 19-22 billion deficit that 1.5 billion is manageable. its not as if the sky is falling in.

No - what we borrow from bondholders needs to be repaid - by present and future taxpayers. Well, the bank bailout is estimated to cost €50b* (no doubt that will turn out to be an underestimate) - if interest rates are 6.5% then the interest bill for the bank bailout is €3.25b p.a., or greater than 10% of our current tax take. I agree that the deficit is the bigger problem but we need to kickstart the economy to address the deficit (along with some cuts) yet we've just blown the reserves that would enable us to do that on the bank bailout.

*granted not all of this €50b is drawn down straightaway and therefore interest won't be incurred on the full amount initially, however, the existence of these government promissory notes are counted as part of Ireland's debt mountain.

gollem_1975 wrote: »

seeing the similarities between the guarantees and a confidence-trick is not particularly clever.. that is exactly what it is.. a gamble ( albeit a high stakes gamble) that they will never need to honour the guarantee.

phew.. have you got that in writing.. another view could be that if we burned these bond holders would anyone be willing to lend us money at ANY interest rate.. the truth is that you don't know the answer any more than I do.

Higher risk requires a higher return. There will always be investors willing to take a gamble at each risk level.

Sand

You know, eventually, were going to end up either in default or in service to the IMF and/or ECB who are already circling, eyeing up our corporate tax rate whilst licking their lips.

And even then, there are going to be some Stockholm Syndrome victims going "Alright, but how much worse would things have got if we had let the banks fail?"

round tower huntsman

we're a laughing stock. true irish patriots must be spinning in their graves at what gone on here,especially the last 15 yrs:mad::mad:

nuac

Any other source for the Citigroup conference story apart from the Daily Telegraph.

The DT is a fine newspaper, but rarely objective and truthful when dealing with Irish issues.

RATM

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

They have right to disagree but their complete lack of respect for our MoF is a smack in the face to the country.

C'mon ffs. Irish people have a complete lack of respect for the Dept. of Finance which we all know has been trying to hoodwink the public for over two years now. It's not at all surprising that the traders in Britain are deriding the principle architect of these mistruths and lies- Lenehan. They've heard enough, its just more rhetoric and hyperbole that comes out of his mouth time and time again and the markets have found him out yet he continues with his babble 'we have turned a corner' :rolleyes:

They were taking part in the conference call in a professional capacity and should have conduced themselves in a more civilised manner. If I was their boss I would have sacked them for this carry on, it is no way to conduct business.

this makes me laugh. Your average boss of a trading floor would be encouraging this type of behaviour to a hostile stakeholder, ie Lenehan. Trading room floors are full of macho gung ho behaviour, they recruit candidates specifically for these traits.