No healthcare for violent criminals.

Austerity

Once you have been convicted for a violent crime such as assault or robbery you should no longer have the legal right to health care. Why should decent people have to pay for the health care of scumbags? For instance I know of a case where a bunch of robbers crashed their car. The survivors are now being treated in hospital. It would be much cheaper for society to just let them die on the side of the road.

aidan_walsh

No.

Austerity

aidan_walsh wrote: »

No.

What?

bernardo mac

plain porridge in prison and put them at the end of the queue

jaffa20

Austerity wrote: »

Once you have been convicted for a violent crime such as assault or robbery you should no longer have the legal right to health care. Why should decent people have to pay for the health care of scumbags? For instance I know of a case where a bunch of robbers crashed their car. The survivors are now being treated in hospital. It would be much cheaper for society to just let them die on the side of the road.

It's just idiotic to suggest that you should let someone die when they can be treated to survive.

Memnoch

Austerity wrote: »

Once you have been convicted for a violent crime such as assault or robbery you should no longer have the legal right to health care. Why should decent people have to pay for the health care of scumbags? For instance I know of a case where a bunch of robbers crashed their car. The survivors are now being treated in hospital. It would be much cheaper for society to just let them die on the side of the road.

And what happens when someone who is wrongly convicted dies in prison from a treatable illness and their innocence is only discovered after their death?

Sounds like you just want crude forms of torture and the death penalty as punishment, which completely dehumanises us and destroys the purpose of locking "criminals" up in the first place.

Austerity

jaffa20 wrote: »

It's just idiotic to suggest that you should let someone die when they can be treated to survive.

It's idiotic to suggest that decent people should pay money to keep scumbags alive.

jaffa20

Austerity wrote: »

It's idiotic to suggest that decent people should pay money to keep scumbags alive.

How would you know they are guilty without a trial? Letting someone die when we have the treatment available is basically murder.

Austerity

jaffa20 wrote: »

How would you know they are guilty without a trial? Letting someone die when we have the treatment available is basically murder.

Police chasing the robbers leaving the scene of the crime is evidence enough, and the fact that they had sub-machine guns in the car...

DeVore

Nelson Mandela spent 20+ years in Prison... I'm glad he didnt get sick.... :rolleyes:

This is childish, basic, first knee-jerk political philosophy. Human rights are for all humans, not just the humans you like.


DeV.

reallyrose

This seems to be a bugbear with you, killing all the criminals.
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056045498

Like DeVore said, human rights are for all.
That's the point of them.

Austerity

reallyrose wrote: »

This seems to be a bugbear with you, killing all the criminals.
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056045498

Like DeVore said, human rights are for all.
That's the point of them.

Because this view is prevalent that is why Ireland and UK are crime infested hellholes and Singapore is safe. People in Singapore don't hold those silly views about human rights being for everyone and Singapore is one of the safest and peaceful places on earth.

Coillte_Bhoy

Austerity wrote: »

Because this view is prevalent that is why Ireland and UK are crime infested hellholes and Singapore is safe. People in Singapore don't hold those silly views about human rights being for everyone and Singapore is one of the safest and peaceful places on earth.

:pac::pac::pac:
Who are they for then and who decides??

DeVore

Have you been to Singapore? Genuine question...

DeV.

DeVore

Also, if someone is arrested and in prison, how is not treating them for a medical problem going to make the streets safer? They dont go from the hospital back to the streets, they go back to their cells....

Your argument is flawed imho.

DeV.

Einhard

Austerity wrote: »

Because this view is prevalent that is why Ireland and UK are crime infested hellholes and Singapore is safe. People in Singapore don't hold those silly views about human rights being for everyone and Singapore is one of the safest and peaceful places on earth.

Singapore isn't a democracy. I'd rather a moderate crime rate and a chance to cast my ballot fairly, and have my voice heard, than zero crime and no real political opposition to the government. Sounds like you want to throw the civil rights of criminals AND those of the law abiding population out the same window.

Nehaxak

Same with Dubai, lovely looking place, zero crime other than lads selling fake watches and jewellery, fantastic place to just go and work for a few years - no taxes to pay, all the money goes in your own pocket. Probably the best immigration laws anywhere (or most draconian, depending on what way you look at it) and protection for their own people first with jobs et all...

...but you're fecked if you're a woman who likes to sit out on the beach in a bikini. Or how about you'd like to sit out in the sunshine with a pint ?
Or even, the most basic, dare you kiss your missus walking down the street :eek:

Although Ireland may not be the safest place in the world, it's certainly got the most freedoms for it's people, even if it's not perfect, there's not another country in the world that touches the freedoms allowed a person in Ireland that we all take for granted - and even at that, there's a lot to be improved upon.

I'll take scumbags and crime any day over suppression of my freedoms.

As for removal of their healthcare, I couldn't care less to be honest. You either can afford to go private in this country or you can afford nothing and get it for free via medical card. Those of us, the vast majority of us, who are stuck in the middle of both - get nothing, no help, and must pay our own way and it's been like that for years.

dvpower

Austerity wrote: »

It's idiotic to suggest that decent people should pay money to keep scumbags alive.

Someone who would leave a person dying on the side of the road is not 'decent'.

DubiousV

"I'll take scumbags and crime any day over suppression of my freedom"

Your freedom is already supressed by the law in this state, it's just a question of degree (remember the blasphemy laws) and perhaps you would be less willing to settle for scumbags and crime if a violent junkie broke into your house and rifled through your property.

Overheal

Slusk you'd rather just cops saw someone on the street who, from their angle, was commiting a crime, and just shot them dead? Theres a reason society developed Due Process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRXNNqNfQBs

Einhard

DubiousV wrote: »

Your freedom is already supressed by the law in this state, it's just a question of degree (remember the blasphemy laws)

Ridiculous statement really. ireland may not be perfect, but it's far more of a democracy than Singapore is.

and perhaps you would be less willing to settle for scumbags and crime if a violent junkie broke into your house and rifled through your property.

Perhaps, but we're talking about current reality of political freedom in Ireland Vs autocracy in Singapore, not hypothetical situations that you conjure up. Anyway, I've not stated that I'd settle for scumbags and criminality, just that, goven the choice, I'd rather live in a state with a moderate crime rate and where my liberties are gauranteed, than in one where the state clamps down on legitimate dissent as much as on the criminal element. A police state might be your idea of a good time, but the reality is that the resources of "law & order" at the disposal of such regimes, are targetted against political dissent as much, if not more than, "scumbags & junkies".

DubiousV

Einhard wrote: »

Ridiculous statement really.

Is it? No one is questioning whether Ireland is a democracy or not, but I think it's naive to believe that punishing the guilty is something we should be embarrassed about lest we fall under the scornful gaze of the penal reform trust or any other such pressure group. Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favour of executions, but I do believe that the current penal system is favouring the guilty as "victims" themselves and that at the expense of justice to the ACTUAL victims.

Einhard wrote: »

Perhaps, but we're talking about current reality of political freedom in Ireland Vs autocracy in Singapore, not hypothetical situations that you conjure up. Anyway, I've not stated that I'd settle for scumbags and criminality, just that, goven the choice, I'd rather live in a state with a moderate crime rate and where my liberties are gauranteed, than in one where the state clamps down on legitimate dissent as much as on the criminal element. A police state might be your idea of a good time, but the reality is that the resources of "law & order" at the disposal of such regimes, are targetted against political dissent as much, if not more than, "scumbags & junkies".

I'd rather live in a state with a low crime rate where my liberties are guaranteed. There is no reason why being tough on crime HAS to result in a loss of civil liberties. IMHO anyway.

Einhard

DubiousV wrote: »

Is it? No one is questioning whether Ireland is a democracy or not, but I think it's naive to believe that punishing the guilty is something we should be embarrassed about lest we fall under the scornful gaze of the penal reform trust or any other such pressure group. Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favour of executions, but I do believe that the current penal system is favouring the guilty as "victims" themselves and that at the expense of justice to the ACTUAL victims.




I'd rather live in a state with a low crime rate where my liberties are guaranteed. There is no reason why being tough on crime HAS to result in a loss of civil liberties. IMHO anyway.

Nobody's arguing with you about the above. But the OP envisages the withdrawal of healthcare to citizens, even before they've been convicted of anything, and hails autocratic Singapore as some sort of utopian idyll. There are certainly ways in which we could be more tough on crime (including of the white collar society), but none of them should include the sort of reactionary nonsense that the OP takes such delight in promulgating.

DubiousV

To be fair I tend to agree in so far as that the withdrawal of healthcare or introduction of any kind of corporal or even lethal sanctions is totally OTT. Nevertheless I hold that the prisoners rights organisations have far too much sway in the current environment. There is already a non partisan inspector of prisons anyway. Perhaps we can agree to agree

Austerity

dvpower wrote: »

Someone who would leave a person dying on the side of the road is not 'decent'.

Letting a convicted violent criminal die on the side of the road is the decent thing to do?

Why is it decent to save their lives so they can continue to inflict suffering upon other people?

Austerity

Einhard wrote: »

Singapore isn't a democracy. I'd rather a moderate crime rate and a chance to cast my ballot fairly, and have my voice heard, than zero crime and no real political opposition to the government. Sounds like you want to throw the civil rights of criminals AND those of the law abiding population out the same window.

I prefer to not have to worry about being beaten to death by drunken trash that walk the streets of Ireland. In Singapore, the ideal state, they would have been hung long ago.

Johnny Murphy FF

Austerity wrote: »

Once you have been convicted for a violent crime such as assault or robbery you should no longer have the legal right to health care. Why should decent people have to pay for the health care of scumbags? For instance I know of a case where a bunch of robbers crashed their car. The survivors are now being treated in hospital. It would be much cheaper for society to just let them die on the side of the road.

Too right! Me and you are fairly alike my friend, keeping contributing !

Nehaxak

Austerity wrote: »

I prefer to not have to worry about being beaten to death by drunken trash that walk the streets of Ireland. In Singapore, the ideal state, they would have been hung long ago.

Hmm...

Let's say you go home tonight, assuming you're married, you walk in and your wife is leaving with the milkman, as she walks out the door she exclaims "it's because you've a small penis and you're an inadequate lover!".

So, in shock, you grab the bottle of Jameson, eh, and a bottle of vodka, oh and that bottle of rum you had stored away for special times.
You end up absolutely smashed and in your drunken state decide to go for a walk down grafton street (also assumes you lived nearby but whatever...) exclaiming to everyone you're really a nice person, in fact your penis is not small at all, sure here, I'll take off my pants and everyone take a look at me naked while I'm walking down Grafton street shouting...

The Gardaí will inevitably come along, have a few words in your ear, either bring you home or maybe take you into a cell for the night to sleep it off and for your own protection. At most you'd probably be charged with disturbing the peace but in all actuality the Gardaí will probably give you a right ear bashing and send you on your merry way in the morning, might even point you in the direction of getting some professional counselling to help you over the matter.

In Singapore you'd have been beaten, more than likely tortured and then hung, probably by the balls.

...and all because the lady loves milk tray.

I know which society I'd prefer to live in anyway, I like my balls thank you very much.

Einhard

Austerity wrote: »

I prefer to not have to worry about being beaten to death by drunken trash that walk the streets of Ireland. In Singapore, the ideal state, they would have been hung long ago.

You worry about being beaten to death on a continual babsis? That's just paranoia, and I'd hazard were you to live in Antartica, with seals and penguins for company, and no humans for hundreds of miles, you'd feel the same way. That being the case, you'd probably spend all your time in your "ideal" state hunkering under your bed, quaking with fear that the government was about to arrest you for opening your mouth. Paranoia and irrational fear doesn't disappear when one crosses state boundaries...

Johnny Murphy FF

Nehaxak wrote: »

Hmm...

Let's say you go home tonight, assuming you're married, you walk in and your wife is leaving with the milkman, as she walks out the door she exclaims "it's because you've a small penis and you're an inadequate lover!".

So, in shock, you grab the bottle of Jameson, eh, and a bottle of vodka, oh and that bottle of rum you had stored away for special times.
You end up absolutely smashed and in your drunken state decide to go for a walk down grafton street (also assumes you lived nearby but whatever...) exclaiming to everyone you're really a nice person, in fact your penis is not small at all, sure here, I'll take off my pants and everyone take a look at me naked while I'm walking down Grafton street shouting...

The Gardaí will inevitably come along, have a few words in your ear, either bring you home or maybe take you into a cell for the night to sleep it off and for your own protection. At most you'd probably be charged with disturbing the peace but in all actuality the Gardaí will probably give you a right ear bashing and send you on your merry way in the morning, might even point you in the direction of getting some professional counselling to help you over the matter.

In Singapore you'd have been beaten, more than likely tortured and then hung, probably by the balls.

...and all because the lady loves milk tray.

I know which society I'd prefer to live in anyway, I like my balls thank you very much.

Thats shockin stuff, ive never seen as much sex and violence talked about in my life.

Nehaxak

Johnny Murphy FF wrote: »

Thats shockin stuff, ive never seen as much sex and violence talked about in my life.

I know, and the milkman wasn't even a handsome fella.

Johnny Murphy FF

Nehaxak wrote: »

I know, and the milkman wasn't even a handsome fella.

Must have been a FG supporter so.

Overheal

Austerity wrote: »

Letting a convicted violent criminal die on the side of the road is the decent thing to do?

Why is it decent to save their lives so they can continue to inflict suffering upon other people?

How can he be convicted without due process?

In law, a conviction is the verdict that results when a court of law finds a defendant guilty of a crime.

I suppose we could put a Judge in the passenger seat of every squad car; keep a pocket-jury in the boot.. I think you'd have trouble finding a spot for the Stenographer though. Or, naturally, go the Judge Dredd route.

OhNoYouDidn't

All this is predicated on the idea that crime rates in Singapore are lower than Ireland. They are not.

While criminal justice in Ireland is far from perfect, our crime rates are amongst the lowest in the world, despite the tabloid spin.

The idea of leaving people die on the side of the road on suspicion they might have committed a crime is laughable, as is the idea of giving the Gardaí Judge Dredd powers.

In short, you are boring Austerity.