Merc S250 CDI

Leonard Hofstadter

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/253086/

No doubt the Irish will be going very dewy eyed over a car that size with a measly 2.1 litre engine.....

In band C though, but there will soon be an Audi A8 with similar CO2 but that will at least have a six cylinder three litre engine.

If you're buying a luxury car there shouldn't be any compromises. Luxury cars are about perfection. A six cylinder diesel engine is far quieter and disguises the fact that you've bought a diesel far better. A little 2.1 litre no matter how many turbos will have to be floored everywhere to get anywhere so it will probably not be that economical at all, and it probably won't last very long either, especially with the complexity of modern diesel engines. And the new Merc 4 cylinder diesel is rather noisy and sounds very diesely, hardly what we expect to hear from a car that its makers claim is the best car in the world. It's also not any faster than a 320d or something ordinary on the roads, hardly something Captains of Industry are likely to appreciate.

Anyway it will be interesting to see what happens with it, I consider it a given that it will be the model of choice here, but it will be fascinating to see what happens it elsewhere where buyers are more sane.

mondeo

That was made specially for Irish people

mailforkev

Perfect Paddy spec.

All they have to do now is stick some steel wheels on it, remove the sat nav and fit some cloth seats and it will shift like crazy over here.

mondeo

mailforkev wrote: »

Perfect Paddy spec.

All they have to do now is stick some steel wheels on it, remove the sat nav and fit some cloth seats and it will shift like crazy over here.

And some free floor mats

Leonard Hofstadter

Don't forget the free mudflaps:D!

Cyrus

7 series, s class etc should be petrol only and realistically v8+

4 cyl diesel makes baby jeebus cry

unkel

I love top class luxury saloons like the S-series with big engines. I don't like them with small engines (6 cylinder) and I hate them with diesel engines. And now there's a 4 cylinder diesel one :eek: :mad:

That said, the performance / emissions on paper look absolutely amazing. 0-100km/h in well under 9s is better than the 6 pot diesel or petrol base models of luxury cars ever did before. With the high torque available at low revs, coupled to the clever modern autobox, I doubt traditional buyers of lthese lower end versions (like the S320CDI) will notice the difference in engine size in real life...

Edit: Cyrus beat me to it and without all the waffle

Leonard Hofstadter

Never mind the diesel bit, the high torque nature of a diesel makes it suited to luxury cars but a little four cylinder engine in a car with the status and pedigree of the S-class is crazy.

Those cars are meant to have large capacity(3l minimum) engines for effortless performance and should not be compromised in the way this car undoubtedly is.

Impressive that it is in the same tax band as a C-class or E-class diesel with an automatic gearbox though, but I would much rather the S350 CDI or CGI even though both are in band E, yes you read that correctly, the petrol AND diesel S350s are in the same tax band.

I think I would rather the petrol in that case, but the diesel is now up to a more impressive 258 bhp, up from 231:D.

Anan1

I hate to say it, but that car probably makes a lot of sense for a lot of people. I'm as opposed to the principle of a big saloon without a petrol V8 as the rest of you, but out there in the real world it'll deservedly do well.

bazz26

Similarly the current Volvo S80 is available with a 1.6 diesel engine.

-Chris-

A thread about a 4 pot S-Class...

Am I alone in thinking that this thread should be deleted and that we never speak of this again?

Cyrus

-Chris- wrote: »

A thread about a 4 pot S-Class...

Am I alone in thinking that this thread should be deleted and that we never speak of this again?

reminds me of school, some guys parents had an e38 7 series with a diesel nissan engine in it :eek:

mailforkev

Cyrus wrote: »

reminds me of school, some guys parents had an e38 7 series with a diesel nissan engine in it :eek:

Eek, sounds likes something you'd get in 1980's Cuba.

bazz26

It was quite common here in the 1980s for large panzers like the Merc S Class and Jag XJ to be retro fitted with a Nissan Patrol diesel engine and gearbox. The way the country is at present we may be seeing the same again soon.

Cyrus

bazz26 wrote: »

It was quite common here in the 1980s for large panzers like the Merc S Class and Jag XJ to be retro fitted with a Nissan Patrol diesel engine and gearbox. The way the country is at present we may be seeing the same again soon.

any idea why

and specifically why the patrol engine?

bazz26

Cyrus wrote: »

any idea why

and specifically why the patrol engine?

My understanding was that they were probably 10+ year old large petrol engined exec cars that were bought cheap but the owners couldn't or didn't want the associated high fuel costs of such cars. They were heavy cars, diesel technology back then was still in the dark ages but the Patrol engine was still torquey enough to propell those barges around while giving decent mpg. I remember seeing an old Jag XJ pulling a horse box, XJ sounded like a tractor though.

Voodoomelon

I thought the S250 was a typo. Still, i'm impressed.

I know a guy who treks the country (Louth to Cork, Louth to Galway and back) a few times a week in a 2007 A8 3.0l V6.

It looks the part, is a great luxury cruiser and I can see the S250 being attractive to people like him. Being wealthy enough to buy one is one thing, but not all these people "like" the idea of spending €200 a week on petrol. No matter how you look at it, it is a massive waste of money pulling a 5 litre V12 across the country compared to something like this new S250. Most people would find it hard to justify.

mickdw

Regardless of how good or powerful those new 4 cylinder merc engines are, it is my opinion that it is a letdown to put this 4 cylinder in the higher model E Class (such as E250) when previously the better models got a 6 cylinder never mind sticking it in an S class.
I might get some abuse for saying this but I think the 6 cylinder merc diesel as fitted to S Class currently sounds pretty good and couldnt be called rough by any stretch.

copacetic

unkel wrote: »

IThat said, the performance / emissions on paper look absolutely amazing. 0-100km/h in well under 9s is better than the 6 pot diesel or petrol base models of luxury cars ever did before. With the high torque available at low revs, coupled to the clever modern autobox, I doubt traditional buyers of lthese lower end versions (like the S320CDI) will notice the difference in engine size in real life...

This is the key for me, all this talk about it being vital for big cars to have big engines for effortless performance etc is patenly rubbish. This little engine gives better performance than the lower end big engines ever did. As long as this is the case itd be monumentally stupid for manufacturers not to put the smaller engine with better perfomance and lower emissions in their cars.

Voodoomelon

Having said that, the performance stats are almost the same as my 2.8 petrol and its over 10 years old. Its not that much of a stretch to achieve what they have. The consumption is impressive though.

cadaliac

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I thought the S250 was a typo. Still, i'm impressed.

I know a guy who treks the country (Louth to Cork, Louth to Galway and back) a few times a week in a 2007 A8 3.0l V6.

It looks the part, is a great luxury cruiser and I can see the S250 being attractive to people like him. Being wealthy enough to buy one is one thing, but not all these people "like" the idea of spending €200 a week on petrol. No matter how you look at it, it is a massive waste of money pulling a 5 litre V12 across the country compared to something like this new S250. Most people would find it hard to justify.

Voodoomelon - you hit the nail on the head.
There is a market for these cars (albeit a small one) and some buyers have very different needs - some people want a smart image for work purposes and do not want the expensive costly fuel bills. Another customer will want a luxury barge with low running costs.
I think we all agree that this car was indeed built for the Irish (thinking) market in mind.

mickdw

To be fair, I think the E Class & 5 series etc are the cars for the guy who wants to cross the country a few times a week. It is devaluing the S Class to be flogging it to a wider audience.

Voodoomelon

Is it going to be cheaper though? A lot of these people buy the flagships for image, so a 5 or an E would not cut it.

EPM

mickdw wrote: »

To be fair, I think the E Class & 5 series etc are the cars for the guy who wants to cross the country a few times a week. It is devaluing the S Class to be flogging it to a wider audience.

I agree. Sounds to me like a Munich taxi special...

-Corkie-

It still has 200 bhp after. I would be happy enough with it....:o

mickdw

I just think they should have stopped short of the S with this. I would have said stick it in the CLS, get some extra customers for that but keep the exclusivity of the S class. Im assuming this 4 cylinder is going to be significantly cheaper than current base diesel.

unkel

Cyrus wrote: »

reminds me of school, some guys parents had an e38 7 series with a diesel nissan engine in it :eek:

There were plenty of Nissan 2.8l diesel (with a massive 100BHP :rolleyes:) conversions as taxis in Dublin in or around the early 90s. Most were S-class mercedes and maybe even some 7-series BMW, but no E38s afaik

Seweryn

unkel wrote: »

There were plenty of Nissan 2.8l diesel (with a massive 100BHP :rolleyes:) conversions as taxis in Dublin in or around the early 90s. Most were S-class mercedes and maybe even some 7-series BMW, but no E38s afaik

There is a lovely one of these :
http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/vintagecars/1521131

But going back to the Paddy S-Class, my first thought was that it makes no sense at all. But look at it from a different angle... First I would say, take if for a spin and then put your comment. It is the same story, as with the 520D (yes, I know it is one size smaller) - the 5 series should be a smart saloon car with sporty image, but look at the numbers... almost every 5er sold recently is... the boring four pot 520D. This is just the current trend of downsizing engines and squeezing more power and more mpg from them.
Secondly - just look at the numbers in this S250. Eight seconds to get from 0 to 100 km/h and its max speed is incredible 150 mph :eek: ! What more do you want? Knowing Mercedes' top engineering solutions, they will make this engine so quiet in that car, that an average person in the cabin will never notice that there is a 4-cylinder Diesel under the bonnet.

samsemtex

copacetic wrote: »

This is the key for me, all this talk about it being vital for big cars to have big engines for effortless performance etc is patenly rubbish. This little engine gives better performance than the lower end big engines ever did. As long as this is the case itd be monumentally stupid for manufacturers not to put the smaller engine with better perfomance and lower emissions in their cars.

The whole point of cars like the s-class is that the engine should be as smooth as silk and utterly silent. This engine will not be either of those.

I'm shocked that merc are stooping this low to be honest.

Seweryn

samsemtex wrote: »

The whole point of cars like the s-class is that the engine should be as smooth as silk and utterly silent.
This engine will not be either of those.

And you know that, because you have driven one already .

copacetic

samsemtex wrote: »

The whole point of cars like the s-class is that the engine should be as smooth as silk and utterly silent. This engine will not be either of those.

I'm shocked that merc are stooping this low to be honest.

lol, you've obviously never been anywhere near a current merc 6 pot diesel. They are neither of those either, not that anyone else likely thinks that is the 'whole point' on the car.

Mr.David

In one way its terrible.

In another its inevitable. Expect next gen 3 series/A4/C Class to come with 3 pots in entry level. Downsizing has only begun.

In a few years 6cyl will be considered large engines (as 8cyl currently).

I do think though, that a lot of S class drivers will only want to waft around and performance isnt a priority. So if they can get the refinement, and have reasonable performance (0-100 in 8 to 9s) it will probably be fine for a lot of people.

Its sad, but its real. I expect superminis to be 2cyl, golf/focus to be 3cyl, passat/mondeo a mix of 3cyl and 4cyl etc.

BrianD3

More than a hint of snobbery and smugness in this thread with the comments about paddy specials and silly people buying so-called small engined cars. Thread also shows how closed minded people are, focusing in on the no of cylinders and cc of the engine, making exaggerated unfounded comments like it'll need to be "floored to get anywhere" and "won't last"

I wonder how many of those making these criticisms will ever be in the market for a new S class of any description The 250 CDi does not replace the larger engines. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

If people knew their history they'd know that it's far from the first time that S classes and 7 series have had smaller and/or diesel engines and/or lower spec. Eg the W116 280S and 300 Diesel or the E38 725 diesel. None of these were sold in the UK or here so were hardly paddy specials.

This 250 Cdi does 149 mph, it will be an effortless cruiser at highly illegal speed. Noise will be very well suppressed. The performance figures are similar to those an early 90s barge woth a large petrol engine (eg a 500 SEL, XJ12, LS400, 735i) while being way more economical.

Voodoomelon

I agree.

Although i do love the idea of large saloons with massive performance, but it remains just that, an idea, an image, a showpiece. 99% of the time, the pedal is far from flat to the floor.
Yes, the large engined models are worth the larger price tag (im my opinion) just to know you have that power, the little smug feeling that you can blast past anything if ever you had the need, the prestige, the notion that your car is the absolute top of the ladder of a flagship range.

But it is a rather ridiculous notion in everyday driving. They really are for people with bottomless pockets, regular, logical, wealthy people should have the option of choosing whatever engine suits them.

Its also a testiment to the manufacturer if they can produce a small engine with similar refinement. The fact that massive engines have to be used to produce refinement is stone age.

colm_mcm

Things change, look how many 5 seriess there are on the roads compared with 10 years ago.
This is effectively getting around vrt on big cars and making them as accessible to people as they are in other countries

Pkiernan

V8's in Ireland are the older drivers version of coffee/fart can exhausts and wide body kits on boy racers Evos and Glanzas. Pointless.

I'd love one of these efficient luxo-barges.

Anan1

Pkiernan wrote: »

V8's in Ireland are the older drivers version of coffee/fart can exhausts and wide body kits on boy racers Evos and Glanzas. Pointless.

I dunno, I used to drive an Audi A8 with over 300bhp and I used all of them regularly.

unkel

Seweryn wrote: »

There is a lovely one of these

Not an E38 though, is it?

€1,500 is a shocking price for that yoke though :eek:

Pkiernan wrote: »

V8's in Ireland are the older drivers version of coffee/fart can exhausts and wide body kits on boy racers Evos and Glanzas. Pointless.

I couldn't find a facepalm picture big enough to fit that remark

Mr Benevolent

Seweryn wrote: »

There is a lovely one of these :
http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/vintagecars/1521131

Lovely? It's worth about e300!

RedorDead

Cyrus wrote: »

7 series, s class etc should be petrol only and realistically v8+

4 cyl diesel makes baby jeebus cry

Drive the new A8 4.2TDI and see if you still feel the same.

Seweryn

Confab wrote: »

Lovely? It's worth about e300!

Well, I am only messing. I should say "lovely" .
Not sure if that thing is worth even 300 Euro...

Seweryn

unkel wrote: »

Not an E38 though, is it?

No, it is not an E38, but one of the older survivors that you mentioned . Some heap of rubbish for a grand and a half...

veetwin

To be fair its not just the Paddy that like small engines in big cars. Spent some time in the UK, Spain and Germany in recent months and 520Ds vastly outnumber all other 5 series engines. Same for the E class. I have driven the 530D and 520D and to be honest the bigger engine is not much quieter. OK there is way more grunt in the bigger engine but it costs alot more to buy, to tax and to service and fuel and will depreciate more. There is you have to admit a case for them.

However a S Class 4 cylinder diesel sounds all wrong and will devalue the whole class same way the 316 has devalued the 3 series.

Just my 2 cents