In leaving cert and still undecided

Ciaramb92

For the past year+ I have wanted to become an actuary. I have my UCAS form and all done out for it.

I lately want to become a doctor though. I am quite intelligent and logically minded so would hopefully do quite well in the HPAT (would expect 200 points, I have an iq of 130+). I would be capable of 530 LC points (if i work relatively hard).

Any advice on how to decide etc?

TimeToShine

Everyone doing the HPAT has an IQ of 130+

randylonghorn

TimeToShine wrote: »

Everyone doing the HPAT has an IQ of 130+

Please back up that statement with peer-reviewed empirical research evidence.




Mind you, OP, expecting a score of 200 on the HPAT because you have an IQ of 130+ (and IQ testing is far from an exact science, even if performed by professionals) is probably best described as counting your chickens ...

Ciaramb92

No no, I don't mean that I'll get 200 because of my iq but what I mean is I'm going at logical sort of thinking and every sample question I have some across on here I have gotten right.

spurious

They are rather different areas of work - actuary and doctor.

What aspect of the work attracts you about either career? Helping people? Not having to deal with people, just figures? Making money?

It might be useful to do one of those tests to see what area(s) of work you have an aptitude for.

Being good at IQ tests is a sign of being good at IQ tests.

Ciaramb92

Actuary = Pros- Love maths, good job Cons- Seems boring, not great opportunities

Doctor = Pros- Very interesting job, good job, tonnes of different paths/sections Cons- Heavy going course

TimeToShine

Actuary is if anything MORE difficult than Medicine unless you have a SERIOUS aptitude for numbers, and by that I don't mean getting an A1 in LC Maths, everyone in Actuary pissed all over that with their eyes closed, you'd have to be shít hot to do well in Actuary, whereas Medicine is just...lots and lots of study.

jumpguy

Ciaramb92 wrote: »

Actuary = Pros- Love maths, good job Cons- Seems boring, not great opportunities

Doctor = Pros- Very interesting job, good job, tonnes of different paths/sections Cons- Heavy going course

Not great opportunities for actuary? And it's only boring if you find it boring.

As for a doctor, the heavy going course isn't the only con. It's a long course, and it's a tough slog for the first few years as a doctor.

(That said, I'm going for medicine myself. :pac:)

Ciaramb92

jumpguy wrote: »

Not great opportunities for actuary?

What I mean is you have a degree in Actuarial Maths/Finance/Science or whichever and you don't have much options other than numbers and an office type job.

With medicine there are so many things I could go into within the hospital.

jumpguy

Do you think you'd like it though? It's a big jump from actuary to medicine! Do you do biology or chemistry in school? D'you mind working with people?

wolfpawnat

OP, Medicine as a career is changing rapidly, a friend of mine is coming home daily now from lectures in bits as they are being told by their lecturers (remorsefully I might add) that this new EU working law states though they will be paid for 48 hours work, they are still going to be caught for alot of unpaid hours. Alot of people are going to Oz as docs as they have better lives there! So if it is the money you are after, reconsider. If not, there are many avenues open in Medicine. Many of which people are not aware of before entering the course!

The HPAT looks at all sides of your abilities. It is not IQ based (though I read already you do not assume high points solely because of IQ )

Both are VERY difficult courses and not for someone who thinks college is about having the craic (though there is a chance of that too ) You have to be willing to work very hard and as others said, you have to be near a maths genius for actuary and you must be able to retain everything about Chem and Biology for Medicine!

How would you decribe your personality? Do you think you would be good at dealing with people? Dealing with relatives of patients? If so then that is a definate plus in Medicine (obviously).

They are great courses, but if I am not mistaken isn't actuary about 570? Well it was when I was in LC!?! If you think you can only get 530, then perhaps it may not be an option

I wish you the best OP in your decidion.

My housemate is an ex med student. The course was not for him (well rather the people and the career were not for him) he loved the course though. He went into Vet and adores that even more. If you have any questions feel free to ask me and I will get him to reply. BUT he got in before the HPAT so sadly he does not know anything on that front.

Ciaramb92

Actuary in UCD is 550 (first choice of all the actuarial courses)
In DCU is 500, or 420 for common entry (extra year at which the end of you choose between actuarial finance or financial studies).

Although UCD would be my first choice for that I know I won't get the points... A girl can try..!

I am great at dealing with people I don't know very well and I have seen life working in hospitals (second hand obviously ) and it looks very interesting.

Boardzee

Ciaramb92 wrote: »

Actuary in UCD is 550 (first choice of all the actuarial courses)
In DCU is 500, or 420 for common entry (extra year at which the end of you choose between actuarial finance or financial studies).

Although UCD would be my first choice for that I know I won't get the points... A girl can try..!

I am great at dealing with people I don't know very well and I have seen life working in hospitals (second hand obviously ) and it looks very interesting.

Ok, this time last year I was in the exact same position. Med or Actuary, Med or Actuary....
To cut a long story short, I'm now in 1st year Actuary. The only advice I can give you is still take the HPAT. You don't have to make any concrete decisions until the end of June. Look into both. Go sit in lectures for both. Go to open days. Ask questions, and lots of them. I didn't make up my mind until May. Turns out my mind was already made up from my HPAT result, but it was only just before the LC I knew Actuary would be my 1st choice.
Doing well in IQ tests doesn't not corelate to a great HPAT. I've never got less than 140 in an IQ test, but I got 141 in the HPAT. In all the mock tests in my school, I came out on top, but on the day, even though I thought it went well, I came in the 32% percentile. Don't be fooled.
It really depends on your personality. Are altruistic or money-driven? Actuary is one of the highest graduate salaries, whereas a primary school teacher starting off will earn more than you in your first year as an intern, and work half of your hours. If your doing Med for the money, you'll be too old to enjoy it by the time you earn it.
Your career options are as limited with Actuary as they are with Med. Only 75% actually go on to be Actuaries. Orders go in to computers, statistics, banking, consultancy etc. There's been a few that have even gone on to do grad Med! There's a guy in my year too who dropped out of Med after two years and is starting Actuary now! The course points were 545 this year actually because they took slightly more than 40, so expect them to rise slight next year due to fewer places.
Lastly, I would have loved to study Med, it's very me. But I'm a money man, so Actuary it was. If you think the course is going to be dry, think again. The people are super craic. There's been nearly more nights out than in so far! The people aren't the stereotypical ones you would imagine! Course work isn't too bad either, about 20 hours a week. I'm not the smartest kid on the block, but first year is relatively easy. After that it's suppose to be difficult. Good luck in making your choice, if you get either, you'll have made the right choice!:)

Ciaramb92

Boardzee wrote: »

It really depends on your personality. Are altruistic or money-driven? Actuary is one of the highest graduate salaries, whereas a primary school teacher starting off will earn more than you in your first year as an intern, and work half of your hours. If your doing Med for the money, you'll be too old to enjoy it by the time you earn it.

Haha.. you've confused me even more..

I love money, who doesn't, but at the same time I love people. I love the thought of being in a job which is so diverse, where each day is different. I'm not thinking of medicine for the money.

soup1

TimeToShine wrote: »

Everyone doing the HPAT has an IQ of 130+

WOW. . .thats one of the most stupid statements i have ever seen on boards.ie And 200 points in the H Pat ? Good luck with that mate! At least you have confidence

pateen

whats a HPAT??:(

spurious

pateen wrote: »

whats a HPAT??:(

It stands for Health Professions Admission Test-Ireland.

It is an aptitude test for entry to medicine. The result in the HPAT gets added to LC points.

Ciaramb92

Ciaramb92 wrote: »

Actuary = Pros- Love maths, good job Cons- Seems boring, not great opportunities

:eek:
You must be joking. You could go anywhere with actuary. It's transferrable enough you could work abroad very easily and be in demand.
And it's not boring

Ciaramb92 wrote: »

Actuary in UCD is 550 (first choice of all the actuarial courses)
In DCU is 500, or 420 for common entry (extra year at which the end of you choose between actuarial finance or financial studies).

Although UCD would be my first choice for that I know I won't get the points... A girl can try..!

I am great at dealing with people I don't know very well and I have seen life working in hospitals (second hand obviously ) and it looks very interesting.

DCU is where everyone I know seemed to do it ...

QueenOfLeon

I don't think you should be basing what you want to do on how you "could" do in the HPAT/LC. I'm sure theres hundreds of people who could brilliantly in the hpat, better than those who've already sat it, but if you're not interested in the actual work of a doctor, and the training involved, then theres no point doing it really.

In terms of opportunities and how interesting the job would be, either could work out well for you depending on what you define as an "interesting" job...both actuaries and doctors could, I'm sure, give you reasons to follow their career path.

Maybe see if you can talk to people in either profession, or have a read of the Careers and Job Discussion forum at the top of the LC page...this and this thread are about actuary. The Health Sciences Education forum is frequented by doctors and med students so its handy for research on training, working, the future, etc.

If you're still unsure, you do have another 9ish months to research and decide...you can apply for the hpat anyway, and have medicine on the CAO by the first closing date (~February) and you can always take it off in July.

And don't assume you're going to do well in the HPAT, its not an IQ test.

Gordon Gecko

Ciaramb92 wrote: »

Actuary in UCD is 550 (first choice of all the actuarial courses)
In DCU is 500, or 420 for common entry (extra year at which the end of you choose between actuarial finance or financial studies).

Although UCD would be my first choice for that I know I won't get the points... A girl can try..!

I am great at dealing with people I don't know very well and I have seen life working in hospitals (second hand obviously ) and it looks very interesting.

First of all, you should be waltzing 550 if you want medicine because HPAT or not it is still a course for academic high flyers. Secondly watching life in hospitals "second hand" is NO comparison to the real thing. I'd suggest shadowing in a hospital during your midterm before you decide if medicine is really for you because no matter what your IQ is some people just aren't cut out for a career involving blood, guts and other unpleasant smelling things.

That said, if you find you like the smell of napalm bile in the morning.........best of luck

Ciaramb92

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

I don't think you should be basing what you want to do on how you "could" do in the HPAT/LC. I'm sure theres hundreds of people who could brilliantly in the hpat, better than those who've already sat it, but if you're not interested in the actual work of a doctor, and the training involved, then theres no point doing it really.

I don't mean I'll be able to get the points so I'll be a doctor, I mean I might be able to get the points and I want to become a doctor.

Boardzee

Ciaramb92 wrote: »

Haha.. you've confused me even more..

I love money, who doesn't, but at the same time I love people. I love the thought of being in a job which is so diverse, where each day is different. I'm not thinking of medicine for the money.

Sorry about the ambiguity, what I meant was that a Primary school teacher earns more in their first year out of college than a Med student. But seeing as it's not money you're interested in, it's a bit extraneous now.
And with regard to points, you're obviously a high-flyer if you figure you can get 530+. I guarantee you if you reckon you can get that now, there's no reason that you cannot get 580+ if you put the work in, you'll only realise it at the end of the year.

P.S., go to the RCSI Open Day, far too many overlook that place...

thetonynator

Ciaramb92 wrote: »

Actuary = Pros- Love maths, good job Cons- Seems boring, not great opportunities

Doctor = Pros- Very interesting job, good job, tonnes of different paths/sections Cons- Heavy going course

Actuary was the only job on careers porytal last year that had ''possible future shortage'' written beside it, so maybe better employment opportunities??

spurious

I sometimes wonder how many people apply for or consider medicine because they will get the points rather than an actual desire or aptitude for it.

Before the Flood, when I was in LC, we had a girl in our class who would easily get the (then) 25-26 points* required for medicine and she came under HUGE pressure from the careers people at school to apply for it.

All she had ever been interested in was marketing and advertising which at the time needed just 2 passes at HL. Fair play to her, she and her parents stood up to the considerable pressure, she did exactly the course she wanted, absolutely flew through it, a Master's and a Doctorate and has been lecturing in her dream job for over 15 years now.

I wonder how many of the Medicine applicants have Nursing in their top 5 CAO choices, or is it all Law/Pharmacy/Dentistry/Vet?


* 5 for an A, 4 for a B, 3 for a C, 2 for a D, with extra points for Higher Maths.

QueenOfLeon

A lot. And some people in my class have no problem saying "Oh sure, I got the points, figured I may as well do it" etc. The other options on the CAO ranged from Law to Pharmacy...there was no word of doing grad med or repeating if they hadn't got it, and there was certainly no mention of doing nursing instead.

In school, a guy who always had the same results as me all the way up, had constant pressure to do medicine when he wanted to do teaching. It was so annoying the way some of the teachers went about it, "Teaching? What? You're easily going to get the points for medicine, why oh why aren't you doing that?!". I assume they figured thats why I went for medicine, as do a lot of people. I hate that attitude.

pfannkuchen

Hate to say it but if you're relying on your HPAT score to be 200+ to get Med, you might as well forget it now. I have an IQ of 165 and didn't get anywhere near 200 (got 174, 84th percentile), so IQ doesn't come into it at all.

I personally missed Medicine by 5 points this year and I've just started Pharmacy in RCSI. We actually share some of our lectures with the Meds, and do Anatomy and Physiology too. I intend to do Graduate Medicine now and I think that Pharmacy will give me an excellent grounding so don't rule that out. I agree with Boardzee too, RCSI is overlooked too often - I adore it so far

The HPAT hasn't actually made it any easier to get into Med, despite what we're led to believe - you still really need an excellent HPAT and high points, so be aware of that and good luck.

dambarude

spurious wrote: »

I sometimes wonder how many people apply for or consider medicine because they will get the points rather than an actual desire or aptitude for it.

Before the Flood, when I was in LC, we had a girl in our class who would easily get the (then) 25-26 points* required for medicine and she came under HUGE pressure from the careers people at school to apply for it.

All she had ever been interested in was marketing and advertising which at the time needed just 2 passes at HL. Fair play to her, she and her parents stood up to the considerable pressure, she did exactly the course she wanted, absolutely flew through it, a Master's and a Doctorate and has been lecturing in her dream job for over 15 years now.

I wonder how many of the Medicine applicants have Nursing in their top 5 CAO choices, or is it all Law/Pharmacy/Dentistry/Vet?


* 5 for an A, 4 for a B, 3 for a C, 2 for a D, with extra points for Higher Maths.

Spurious has it spot on as usual. Seriously consider if you really want to do medicine. The almost automatic response to anybody getting or aiming for 550+ is 'is she/he going for medicine'.

I had more than enough points for medicine when I did the LC. Luckily the people close to me didn't try and force me into anything, but countless people mentioned medicine to me in LC year. It is still said to me 3 years later when LC points come up in conversation.

I wanted to do teaching, so everything on my CAO list related to that. But if I had been put under enough pressure there's a chance I would have put down medicine- and I'd more than likely be very unhappy now if I had.

lctake2

The amount of people that want to do medicine because it sounds impressive, or because they 'can', or for the money drive me mad!:mad: I'm doing medicine now and wanted to do medicine because I love it, there wasn't anything else I would have done. My brother now wants to do med and it's clearly just because he thinks it's 'what the smart people do' :rolleyes:
If you're unsure what you want to do medicine isn't one for the uncertain, 10+ years before you're fully qualified. Have you done work experience in a hospital or doctors office? If not you really should.
As for having nursing in on my cao, no I didn't, if I didn't get into medicine I didn't want to torment myself by doing a similar course that would have been almost what I wanted but never enough for me

wayhey

lctake2 wrote: »

The amount of people that want to do medicine because it sounds impressive, or because they 'can', or for the money drive me mad!:mad: I'm doing medicine now and wanted to do medicine because I love it, there wasn't anything else I would have done. My brother now wants to do med and it's clearly just because he thinks it's 'what the smart people do' :rolleyes:
If you're unsure what you want to do medicine isn't one for the uncertain, 10+ years before you're fully qualified. Have you done work experience in a hospital or doctors office? If not you really should.
As for having nursing in on my cao, no I didn't, if I didn't get into medicine I didn't want to torment myself by doing a similar course that would have been almost what I wanted but never enough for me

Completely agree with you about nursing. I'm repeating for medicine and am thinking about my CAO. I'd love the people/caring aspect of Nursing, but it's the whole package of Medicine, the career opportunities, subjects, continued learning, competitive envrionment...

It's a bit broad to say Medicine applicants should put down Nursing isn't it spurious? Nursing's a completely different vocation (major respect for people that do it, don't mistake me on that-hard course and you can get unbelievable abuse) and I think it requires different qualities in greater amounts than Medicine. And okay, I can understand a little frustration at people that have courses from different fields all over their CAO... but come on, how many people at 17/18 (sometimes 16) can know who they are and what they want to do? I think it's perfectly healthy to have more than one "field" on a CAO form, but that's just my two cents..

(Biomedical Science or something in that area would make me happy btw; considering science education/occupational therapy too though).

OP, I found a few careers tests... Hey, they're nothing definite but maybe they'll help you out. You've other options outside Medicine and Actuary too, don't forget that.

http://quiz.ivillage.co.uk/uk_work/tests/career.htm (Scroll to the right if you can't see it)
http://www.careersportal.ie/ (sign up for free and they've a great aptitude test)

Good luck with it!!

randylonghorn

wayhey wrote: »

I think it's perfectly healthy to have more than one "field" on a CAO form, but that's just my two cents.

I agree, but when one sees a CAO list with a mix like medicine / law / actuary / dentistry with no obvious link or thread, it invites a question (not saying that it's impossible that someone couldn't be genuinely interested in 2 or even more of these, but it's unlikely there will be too many with that kind of an eclectic mix who isn't at some level thinking "high points / high salary").

In my experience, most people hellbent on medicine will have some kind of health science / general science degree as back-up ... many will be thinking the GAMSAT route.

Of course a nursing degree would also be a very appropriate avenue, but I suspect most people who are absolutely intent on medicine think like lctake2 ...

As for having nursing in on my cao, no I didn't, if I didn't get into medicine I didn't want to torment myself by doing a similar course that would have been almost what I wanted but never enough for me

Understandable, really.

Bob the Builder

spurious wrote: »

I sometimes wonder how many people apply for or consider medicine because they will get the points rather than an actual desire or aptitude for it.........[/SIZE]

Well said Spurious. I think it is a shame the way that students are pressurised into going into courses that they don't even want just because they are going to get the courses...

Some of the students I see going into medicine are great people, don't get me wrong, they are brilliant, anybody who gets >500 points is brilliant, but I ask myself, if I knew these people in real life, would I want them operating on me?

And unfortunately, for the most part, the answer is No.

Conor108

Ciaramb92 wrote: »

would expect 200 points, I have an iq of 130+)

:rolleyes: Being good at IQ tests is just a sign of........being good at IQ tests.

wolfpawnat

Bob the Builder wrote: »

Well said Spurious. I think it is a shame the way that students are pressurised into going into courses that they don't even want just because they are going to get the courses...

Some of the students I see going into medicine are great people, don't get me wrong, they are brilliant, anybody who gets >500 points is brilliant, but I ask myself, if I knew these people in real life, would I want them operating on me?

And unfortunately, for the most part, the answer is No.

If you really want to see what are the doctors of the future, my suggestion is go into RCSI in Stephens Green!!! You will actually come out going :eek:

One girl there has failed first year twice. The rule of the college is fail ANY year twice and out you go, but nope, daddy is well to do and there are other rumours circulating too about her reasons for getting to do the year again, and they are well founded!

Ireland needs smart teens that want to be docs. So anyone here half decent is an asset to the medical community.

And yes nursing and medicine are 2 entirely different careers.

Medicine, you have to be able for snap decisions and to be able to handle yourself and other well under pressure, it is YOU who tries to keep a person alive. If you make a decision that costs someone there life then it is you that has to live with that.

Nurses are caretakers, they have to look after bandages, wash invalid patients, look after all their excretory needs, be their confidents, their maids and their nannies! Also you have very little say and must obey the decisions of doctors!

They are completely different careers though both based on the care of humans!

dambarude

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Nurses are caretakers, they have to look after bandages, wash invalid patients, look after all their excretory needs, be their confidents, their maids and their nannies! Also you have very little say and must obey the decisions of doctors!

That's a serious underestimation of the work that nurses do.

Untrained workers can do all what you have just described. What about nurses who administer medicine? Take blood pressure? Actually notice that something is wrong with a patient, and then if required seek further assistance? Nurses may not have the same level of medical training as doctors, but they are still medical professionals, not homehelps.

HQvhs

wolfpawnat wrote: »

If you really want to see what are the doctors of the future, my suggestion is go into RCSI in Stephens Green!!! You will actually come out going :eek:

One girl there has failed first year twice. The rule of the college is fail ANY year twice and out you go, but nope, daddy is well to do and there are other rumours circulating too about her reasons for getting to do the year again, and they are well founded!

Ireland needs smart teens that want to be docs. So anyone here half decent is an asset to the medical community.

And yes nursing and medicine are 2 entirely different careers.

Medicine, you have to be able for snap decisions and to be able to handle yourself and other well under pressure, it is YOU who tries to keep a person alive. If you make a decision that costs someone there life then it is you that has to live with that.

Nurses are caretakers, they have to look after bandages, wash invalid patients, look after all their excretory needs, be their confidents, their maids and their nannies! Also you have very little say and must obey the decisions of doctors!

They are completely different careers though both based on the care of humans!

That's a very condescending view of nurses. Nurses are health professionals too. They perform a valuable job and are an indispensible member of the hospital staff. To call them merely 'caretakers' suggests you either don't know any, or have never seen them at work.

rainbowtrout

spurious wrote: »

I sometimes wonder how many people apply for or consider medicine because they will get the points rather than an actual desire or aptitude for it.


I wonder how many of the Medicine applicants have Nursing in their top 5 CAO choices, or is it all Law/Pharmacy/Dentistry/Vet?

I often wonder this myself. I interviewed an awful lot of these students on the ag science assessment this year. I usually have a bit of chit chat with the student at the end of the interview asking them what they would like to do in college etc. By the end of the week I felt like handing out a multiple choice questionnaire. Please tick the course(s) you have applied for on the CAO : Medicine, Dentistry, Veterinary and to a lesser extent Law. I also got quite a bit of 'Medicine in Trinity' as if that should have any bearing on their future career. I didn't once hear 'I'd like to help people, I want to work in a hospital, I work weekend's at the local vets and I go round with him when he's going out to farms' I met one girl who told me she was going for Veterinary. So I asked her if she had a farm/pets/worked at a vet's practice/kennels/experience with animals etc, just making small talk. None of the above was the answer. So I asked her why she was going for veterinary, and she didn't really have an answer, not even 'I LOVE ANIMALS!!!!' type answer, it was just meh, i like animals, and I just felt like saying watching Pet Rescue is a lot different from pulling a calf at 3 in the morning.:(

EuropeanSon

soup1 wrote: »

WOW. . .thats one of the most stupid statements i have ever seen on boards.ie And 200 points in the H Pat ? Good luck with that mate! At least you have confidence

200+ in the HPAT is certainly achievable. A guy I'm living with right now in Trinity got 230.

blubloblu

EuropeanSon wrote: »

200+ in the HPAT is certainly achievable. A guy I'm living with right now in Trinity got 230.

I think the highest score was 223?
Anyway, anything over 200 is well into the 99th percentile. That's in the top 1% of people who think they can get into medicine. I wouldn't bank on getting that score.

louloubella

Ciaramb92:
STOP defending yourself, you sound very determined. You will get there will work and luck- Bonne chance

Ciaramb92 wrote: »

What I mean is you have a degree in Actuarial Maths/Finance/Science or whichever and you don't have much options other than numbers and an office type job.

With medicine there are so many things I could go into within the hospital.