Why can't we fill vacancies?

waraf

My company has been looking for an Oracle forms developer for over a month with an ad on Monster and they haven't had one single CV submitted from Ireland. I know it's a fairly specialised role but no CVs at all - that's just mad!! They also been looking for a QA tester recently and the only guy that they have interviewed turned up for his interview in jeans and runners!! WTF?!!



PS they're also now looking for two support people so if you're an IT graduate looking for work drop me a PM.

Smoggy

we have the same with VB6 developers, its a dying art.

dazberry

"We" have the same problem with Delphi developers, but you'd only look to work "here" if you were ... a bit stuck.

Mr. Loverman

"We" have the same problem for software testers and support people.

Seems it's as hard as ever to get IT people! Especially good IT people.

D-Generate

Is it that no one applies, or those that apply are lacking basic programming skills?

CorkFenian

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

"We" have the same problem for software testers and support people.

Seems it's as hard as ever to get IT people! Especially good IT people.

What kind of support roles are there???(working just curious)

seamus

From speaking to people on both sides of the fence, there does seem to be some problem outside of the entry level I.T. jobs.

On one hand recruiters/companies are complaining that when they post up a job, they are getting mountains of CVs from people who are just applying for anything in the hope of landing a job.

From the jobseekers' point of view, employers have become very specific and rigid in their job specs and are ignoring any candidate who doesn't fall within 95% of that spec. Previously you would land an interview (rightly or wrongly) if you fell within 50% of the job requirements or you at least fulfilled the most important criteria.

So you have employers complaining that nobody is applying for their jobs or that there are no qualified people applying for their jobs, but on the other hand you have jobseekers complaining that they're applying for jobs for which they're well capable, but employers are ignoring their application.

dan_d

Strange one that.

I know I've been posting around here about various things to do with applications, and my irritation, but I was listening to a guy on the radio the other day saying something similar - he advertised 2 jobs, was completely underwhelmed by the response he got, and only got one irish CV. He freely admitted they were fairly labour intensive jobs, and the hours were anti-social (though to me, they weren't that bad - 5am to 1pm everyday isn't the worst), but he said he paid well, above the min wage and he treated his employees well (10% payrises each year for the last 2 years).

His argument was that Irish people are lazy and are whinging about there being no jobs, but it's more that they're just not prepared to take the ones out there. I see hundreds of IT jobs out there, and I just don't understand it. My background is not IT, so I can't say what level they're out or what's required, but it seems very strange to me. As far as I can see, either companies are offering too little, or people are asking for too big a salary, or else companies are being far too exacting in what they require from candidates and as a result, they're just not getting the people - some jobs have ridiculous requirements that in the good times, it would have been very difficult to find people to fill.(I'm not just referring to IT)

The other thing I'd wonder is how much of an effect emigration is having on this. There's a particular age-group leaving...it appears to be grads up to those in their mid 30s - ish. (obviously there are others but this seems to be the average).Would a lot of those IT skills and experience be contained within that age group???

It's a very odd situation.

yop

From my own experience 90% of the jobs for IT are Dublin based, so anyone working in IT have a great choice and are probably in good jobs.

Outside of that, down West where I am, there are plenty of programmers looking for work. I mentioned this before, outside of Java & C++ jobs in Galway there isn't anything in VB or .NET.
I have spent 3-4 months looking for programming work (have 13 years experience) and I couldn't get a bean of work West of the Shannon, the jobs weren't there.
In the end I work part-time in Dublin and bit of remote work.

old_aussie

Maybe your not offering enough remuneration.

seamus

dan_d wrote: »

The other thing I'd wonder is how much of an effect emigration is having on this. There's a particular age-group leaving...it appears to be grads up to those in their mid 30s - ish. (obviously there are others but this seems to be the average).Would a lot of those IT skills and experience be contained within that age group???

From what I can tell, the vast majority of emigrants are those with business & legal backgrounds and degrees. Solicitors, accountants, fund managers, etc.

I suspect the main reason why it's hard to get the best candidates is because they're mostly sticking with the job that they have and riding out the storm. Better to hold onto your current job than switch to another one where you have no hope of redundancy for two years.

waraf

D-Generate wrote: »

Is it that no one applies, or those that apply are lacking basic programming skills?

it's that no one applies.

waraf

CorkFenian wrote: »

What kind of support roles are there???(working just curious)

i'll PM you

waraf

old_aussie wrote: »

Maybe your not offering enough remuneration.

yeah it could be a factor alright but I would have thought there were enough people unemployed to have at least some CVs submitted. Maybe unemployment hasn't hit the IT sector as badly as some other sectors.....

thecelt

Are any of these positions in Kerry / Cork?

waraf

thecelt wrote: »

Are any of these positions in Kerry / Cork?

Dublin 2 I'm afraid.

NissanFan

Hi warf,

Can you PM more details about the support roles please?.

Best regards.

jimoc

We're in Limerick and we've been trying to fill a number of java roles for months now with very little success.
The main problem is that the first thing we do is get the applicants to do a technical exam, which the vast majority of candidates are failing.
it contains a programming question and a number of questions on fairly basic java knowledge and yet less that 20% of the applicants get past that.

the_syco

seamus wrote: »

From the jobseekers' point of view, employers have become very specific and rigid in their job specs and are ignoring any candidate who doesn't fall within 95% of that spec. Previously you would land an interview (rightly or wrongly) if you fell within 50% of the job requirements or you at least fulfilled the most important criteria.

Agreed. Also if the employer doesn't know what they need, or the agency asks for someone with computer knowledge, but the agency doesn't know what an A+ is...

dan_d wrote: »

I see hundreds of IT jobs out there, and I just don't understand it. My background is not IT, so I can't say what level they're out or what's required, but it seems very strange to me.

Not to me. Many of the jobs are filled, don't exist, or are simply asking for grads fresh from college with small money, but wanting said grads to have fairly specfic certs (CCNA, & MCSE are the usual favorites).

I know of at least 10 jobs in my company. only good if you speak flunet swedish, spanish, italian, etc.

As for the jobs going, and up around Dundalk? Have a mate up there used to do 2nd level down here.

As said, most people are sticking to the programming jobs they have now.

Me, I'll stay in my current job as long as I can, as it's nearby, and somewhat interesting. That, and I can post on boards.ie during the quite periods

Jumpy

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

"We" have the same problem for software testers and support people.

Seems it's as hard as ever to get IT people! Especially good IT people.

Thats because we are all holding onto our jobs.

Part of being smart in IT is being smart enough to know that contracting is currently not secure enough to survive in. Also a lot of good IT people dont bother with recruiting agencies because 95% of the positions advertised are CV harvests.

Mr. Loverman

jimoc wrote: »

The main problem is that the first thing we do is get the applicants to do a technical exam, which the vast majority of candidates are failing.

We have the same problem. Our technical exam is amazingly easy, yet nearly everyone fails it.

It's really quite disturbing the number of people who work in IT/want to work in IT who have no technical skills whatsoever.

NickDrake

Can you PM me the job spec please. Thanks.

GHOST MGG2

I would also be obliged if you could PM me with some info on the support roles available.
regards

MysticalRain

I'd like to see the job spec too please.

Jim2007

waraf wrote: »

They also been looking for a QA tester recently and the only guy that they have interviewed turned up for his interview in jeans and runners!! WTF?!!

Is this not the norm... do you have some kind of dress code or what???

Admittedly I've never interviewed an Irish programmer yet, but so far I have never had an IT person turn up in a suit or anything even close to it!

Jim

irishguy

We have been trying to hire java developers with 4 years +, QA's Scrum masters with very limited success despite having ads everywhere, big ad in the paper and open days. Most java people (that are any good) I know that are looking at moving have their pick of roles.
There are a few companies that have started taking on lots of people and there isnt the experience out there.

waraf

Jim2007 wrote: »

Is this not the norm... do you have some kind of dress code or what???

Admittedly I've never interviewed an Irish programmer yet, but so far I have never had an IT person turn up in a suit or anything even close to it!

Jim

I'm not sure if there's an official dress code in the office but everyone wears trousers/shirt/shoes (business casual essentially). Some wear ties but they're in the minority.

Nevertheless everyone in the office commented on the guy who arrived in jeans and runners (the offices have glass walls). The general consensus was that it showed a total lack of respect for the role he was applying for. He won't be getting a second interview...

LevelSpirit

We had to go out and hire new IT staff after a load of them left when our employer thought it would be a good idea to use the recession as an excuse to have a pay freeze and stop bonuses.
By the time they realized that too many people were leaving or planning to leave and reversed their decision about freezes and bonuses we'd lost 60% of the IT staff to companies who paid them more and included bonuses and pay rises at year end. Once agents heard what was happening they were on the phone to all the IT guys with jobs which promised better conditions. Once a couple of guys left it snowballed then.

We still have positions to fill and we've been at it for months now.

the_syco

waraf wrote: »

Nevertheless everyone in the office commented on the guy who arrived in jeans and runners (the offices have glass walls). The general consensus was that it showed a total lack of respect for the role he was applying for. He won't be getting a second interview...

Really depends if he has a job or not. Suddenly wearing a suit to your job smells of "job interview at lunch", and if the company is slimming down, you don't want to be seen as a target. Of course, I'd usually wear a suit to an interview, and then change to casual for the job (when working in a cinema) that I'd have in a bag. Some may not have the time, though.

=-=

To the people finding it hard on getting people, have you tried advertising on jobbank.fas.ie ? Found that place to have less bogus jobs.

Mrs OBumble

It's partly the employment laws: in the first 12 months of a new role, and employer can let you go for no reason. For the next year, they can make the position redundant without having to pay any compensation.

So anyone who has a permanent job for more than 2 years isn't going to risk losing those rights, unless the new position has a lot of benefits.

The very specific skills thing applies in more than just Dublin. I've heard similar things about Java and Galway too. But it's only the very specific skills: as an experienced business systems analyst who's not a developer, I'm pretty much out of work.

dan_d

I can't help thinking I'm in totally the wrong industry....

dan_d

dan_d wrote: »

I can't help thinking I'm in totally the wrong industry....

Despite all these comments, you just know that there are people of various skills, from graduates to highly experienced, in IT who are out of work for months.

If you are looking to retrain/upskill into IT, I wouldn't rush into it just based on these comments.

LevelSpirit

JustMary wrote: »

It's partly the employment laws: in the first 12 months of a new role, and employer can let you go for no reason. For the next year, they can make the position redundant without having to pay any compensation.

So anyone who has a permanent job for more than 2 years isn't going to risk losing those rights, unless the new position has a lot of benefits.

The very specific skills thing applies in more than just Dublin. I've heard similar things about Java and Galway too. But it's only the very specific skills: as an experienced business systems analyst who's not a developer, I'm pretty much out of work.

We just hired 2 BAs.
A friend knows one of them and says he thinks hes talking to another company too, even though he's supposed to be starting with us at the end of the month. If thats true we'll need to be looking again and i'll give you a shout.

MysticalRain

I took a look at the job spec for the support role expecting to find some kind of obvious flaw with it. But it actually seems quite reasonable to me. Even the money being offered sounds reasonable for the level of industry experience. Especially in the current climate (The company I work for manages to hire IT administrators and developers for what your company pays its junior help desk people). The only thing I can think of that might be turning away people may be Oracle database experience, which not a lot of junior IT support people have. I can't see anything obviously wrong with the job specs for the developer roles either. Other than that, I'm at a loss. Perhaps there is some other part of the recruitment process is broken in some way?

Dave!

This thread makes me a bit more optimistic about the prospect of returning to Ireland in April

I hope there's still plenty of IT vacancies around by then

Mr. Loverman

dan_d wrote: »

I can't help thinking I'm in totally the wrong industry....

Don't move into IT unless you genuinely like it.

It's an industry full of people who hate their jobs.

waraf

MysticalRain wrote: »

I took a look at the job spec for the support role expecting to find some kind of obvious flaw with it. But it actually seems quite reasonable to me. Even the money being offered sounds reasonable for the level of industry experience. Especially in the current climate (The company I work for manages to hire IT administrators and developers for what your company pays its junior help desk people). The only thing I can think of that might be turning away people may be Oracle database experience, which not a lot of junior IT support people have. I can't see anything obviously wrong with the job specs for the developer roles either. Other than that, I'm at a loss. Perhaps there is some other part of the recruitment process is broken in some way?

I took up the exact same role in the company last year coming straight out of college with no experience whatsoever (oracle or otherwise). There's a steep learning curve but it's not impossible for someone with an IT degree who's willing to put in the hours to learn new skills. Anyway, I've had more than ten people ask me for the job spec via PM so hopefully we'll get some CVs submitted as a result of this thread.

MysticalRain

waraf wrote: »

I took up the exact same role in the company last year coming straight out of college with no experience whatsoever (oracle or otherwise). There's a steep learning curve but it's not impossible for someone with an IT degree who's willing to put in the hours to learn new skills. Anyway, I've had more than ten people ask me for the job spec via PM so hopefully we'll get some CVs submitted as a result of this thread.

You have to wonder where all these recent IT graduates have disappeared to.

Cian92

waraf wrote: »

I'm not sure if there's an official dress code in the office but everyone wears trousers/shirt/shoes (business casual essentially). Some wear ties but they're in the minority.

Nevertheless everyone in the office commented on the guy who arrived in jeans and runners (the offices have glass walls). The general consensus was that it showed a total lack of respect for the role he was applying for. He won't be getting a second interview...

If you are going to be that fussy, no wonder you find it difficult to hire. I have landed my part time job while in a tracksuit. One guy turned up to work in a dressing gown one day (as he was sick), nobody had a problem with him turning up like that.

If you have a problem with his dress code, you could tell him. Also there is only need for one if he was to be dealing with the public.

shoegirl

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

We have the same problem. Our technical exam is amazingly easy, yet nearly everyone fails it.

It's really quite disturbing the number of people who work in IT/want to work in IT who have no technical skills whatsoever.

Thats true.
I got laid off in june, most of my colleagues to be honest had very poor skills. Some were extremely out of date and thought themselves too smart to go to college. One guy had nothing over a leaving cert except an MCP he got in '00. He thought he was just too clever for it.

Likewise we'd people who thought their pay was a "pittance" - but it was 10k more than the same jobs available to them now.

As a result, only about 5 out of 30 of us are back working 3 months later.

The people who are getting interviews and making progress are a minority who were hired as graduates and got a much smaller salary. And those willing to work in the UK or Dublin.

6679

Cian92 wrote: »

If you are going to be that fussy, no wonder you find it difficult to hire. I have landed my part time job while in a tracksuit. One guy turned up to work in a dressing gown one day (as he was sick), nobody had a problem with him turning up like that.

If you have a problem with his dress code, you could tell him. Also there is only need for one if he was to be dealing with the public.

For an interview for a job in a shop I would wear normal clothes but for an office job I would wear a suit as it shows you are taking the role seriously.

jimoc wrote: »

We're in Limerick and we've been trying to fill a number of java roles for months now with very little success.
The main problem is that the first thing we do is get the applicants to do a technical exam, which the vast majority of candidates are failing.
it contains a programming question and a number of questions on fairly basic java knowledge and yet less that 20% of the applicants get past that.

I am one of them people who is failing the programming exams in interviews but you have to remember that not all graduates have a decent knowledge of programming and need experience to get to a decent knowledge of programming. Also for I haven't touched Java since the end of the first semester in 3rd year and after that we used different languages.

Out of my class of about 20 the top programmers have all doing Phds or Masters there is only two lads I know who were good at programming who have now jobs in development earning about €30k.

Cian92

Cian92 wrote: »

If you are going to be that fussy, no wonder you find it difficult to hire. I have landed my part time job while in a tracksuit. One guy turned up to work in a dressing gown one day (as he was sick), nobody had a problem with him turning up like that.

If you have a problem with his dress code, you could tell him. Also there is only need for one if he was to be dealing with the public.

Expecting someone to attend a job interview in smarter attire than jeans and runners is NOT 'being fussy'. I don't know where people get the idea that it's acceptable. What you wear on the job is a separate matter entirely - dressing smartly for an interview shows you're serious and have made an effort as opposed to having popped in on your way to do the shopping. You should always, always overdress rather than underdress. You can see what everyone else wears when you get there, and then if you get the job, break out the jeans if that's the company style.

Hrududu

I've never heard of someone going to an office job interview in anything less than a suit. Do people really do that?

LevelSpirit

]

Dave! wrote: »

This thread makes me a bit more optimistic about the prospect of returning to Ireland in April

I hope there's still plenty of IT vacancies around by then

Things in IT arent bad in Ireland, but If you are mobile try the UK. Big money to be made there.

LevelSpirit

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Don't move into IT unless you genuinely like it.

It's an industry full of people who hate their jobs.

Very true.
Or they are the ones complaining they cant get jobs even though they are fantastic. If they cant get a job in IT there is a reason, even if they dont want to believe it.

It could be that they arent dressed for an interview (very bad sifn, if your employer might be sending you out to see clients and you dont even bother to smarten up for the interview).

It could be that they dont have the skills they think they have.

Ive even denied people because they had BO. More often than you might think too.

fergalr

Malik Thoughtless Microcomputer wrote: »

Expecting someone to attend a job interview in smarter attire than jeans and runners is NOT 'being fussy'. I don't know where people get the idea that it's acceptable. What you wear on the job is a separate matter entirely - dressing smartly for an interview shows you're serious and have made an effort as opposed to having popped in on your way to do the shopping. You should always, always overdress rather than underdress. You can see what everyone else wears when you get there, and then if you get the job, break out the jeans if that's the company style.

Hrududu wrote: »

I've never heard of someone going to an office job interview in anything less than a suit. Do people really do that?

I've never worn a suit to a computer job interview.

Smart casual is usual in my experience. Jeans, runners and shirt would be fine though. Suit is generally overdressed.
Now, I wouldn't discriminate against someone wearing a suit. It might make me vaguely wonder if they were going to be a good fit, but I'd try pay no attention to that.

The point about an interview is that you are supposed to assess the candidate on what they say and how good at their job they will be; not on their ability to dress up in a suit.

If a large part of their job is dressing up in suits (ie, they will be out working on a customer site in a bank all the time) then maybe it matters. But, frankly, its not that hard to put on a suit, and isn't something you'd be particularly concerned about at an interview.


Dressing up in a suit shows an attention to irrelevant detail.
Learning about the company, about the work, and technologies current shows attention to relevant detail.

waraf wrote: »

I'm not sure if there's an official dress code in the office but everyone wears trousers/shirt/shoes (business casual essentially). Some wear ties but they're in the minority.

Nevertheless everyone in the office commented on the guy who arrived in jeans and runners (the offices have glass walls). The general consensus was that it showed a total lack of respect for the role he was applying for. He won't be getting a second interview...

You imply that the candidate won't be getting a second interview because he dressed in jeans and runners for a QA tester position.
You talk about a 'total lack of respect for the role he was applying for'.
What does that even mean? That just sounds like the company is up itself in some way. Its a job! Being good at your job is important, dressing up in a suit to show some weird sort of respect, for the role, isn't.

I think thats crazy to disqualify someone for the role on that basis; if its that big of a deal it makes a lot of sense to tell someone to dress up when arranging the interview .

Rabble Rabble

The suit thing is a bit overdone. You don't need a tie in most places. If it is a cool mobile digital company dressing like a banker might be a mistake. For financials dress like a banker. If you interview in Silicon valley they won't care ( although Irish managers tend to care a bit even for the same company).

It varies so research.

dan_d

No. I won't be going for IT, I've no interest! I'm all for upskilling, but there's no point in doing something you've no interest in. And by the time I figured out what was going on, IT could be on a downer and......I don't know, HR, be the in-thing! You can't spend your life chasing industries that are going well at the time yours isn't, things will go up and down all the time.

Plus at some point you have to accept that you have to stop doing endless courses to "upskill" and make yourself more "saleable", and just go and try and find a job. (easier said than done I know)

But thanks for the tips!!

irishguy

dan_d wrote: »

No. I won't be going for IT, I've no interest! I'm all for upskilling, but there's no point in doing something you've no interest in. And by the time I figured out what was going on, IT could be on a downer and......I don't know, HR, be the in-thing! You can't spend your life chasing industries that are going well at the time yours isn't, things will go up and down all the time.

Plus at some point you have to accept that you have to stop doing endless courses to "upskill" and make yourself more "saleable", and just go and try and find a job. (easier said than done I know)

But thanks for the tips!!

I would pick someone you really like (within reason) and study that and try to get a job in it. If you enjoy what your doing you will do a lot better and have a far better chance of getting a job.


As for IT its mostly all Dublin based, very few jobs elsewhere. The whole IT industry is based on a low corporate tax rate and R&D tax credit. If the EU make us change it we will be screwed.

Also my girlfriend is an accountant and she was made redundant 1 month ago, she had 2 job offers (with more money) within a couple of weeks. So things are picking up, but IT is just doing quite well.

Jehuty42

6679 wrote: »

I am one of them people who is failing the programming exams in interviews but you have to remember that not all graduates have a decent knowledge of programming and need experience to get to a decent knowledge of programming. Also for I haven't touched Java since the end of the first semester in 3rd year and after that we used different languages.

As a final year student in a CS program, I have to disagree with you here. While it is quite possible to get through and get a degree without being a competent programmer, you should not allow that to happen. Programming allows for the practical application of a lot of the concepts you learn about and you should practice it in your spare time, through internships and small bodies of work for clients that friends refer to you, etc.

Mr. Loverman

I'm a bit amazed by all the people here advocating wearing casual/smart casual clothes to an interview instead of a suit.

You should always wear a suit. Why take the risk of disrespecting the employer?!