Is it possible to get a voice for the people?

Drumpot

I have been talking about this with friends and family and nobody seems to be able to find a person who speaks for the people.

The people of Ireland want:

1. Information

• What exactly is going on and why the banks are being bailed out, its not good enough to give half arsed answers to such an important decision thats being made on our countries behalf

2 Debate

• An open forum debate (ala US presidential elections) between educated economists and the main politicians involved in debating the merits of any alternative we may choose.

3. Belief

• A person they can believe in, somebody who respects the people enough to be up front and honest. Somebody who is not afraid to say the truth even if it effects their popularity.

4. Hope

• People want to believe that what is being done is for the greater good. It simply looks like the government are just afraid to let the banks fend for themselves and as such are burdening us with debt for decades to come.

5. Inspiration.

• Its understandable that people are so disilussioned with the policies of FF because they do not inspire and they do not fill people with confidence by getting defencive when asked to elaborate on their policies/decisions. If you are passionate about what you believe in, about what you are doing and you can articulate yourself well, you will inspire. Neither the government or many of the opposition party members seem capable of doing either.

6. Trust/Respect

• These are earned, not won by an election. Few people have trust in any of our politicians across the board and when we speak of the respect people have for them, its more about respecting a certain party/politician more then another whom they distrust ,as opposed to actually respecting them for their qualities.

7.Self Confidence

• We want to feel good about ourselves again. To do so, we have to stand up for our principles and we have to cast aside our prejudices and narrow minded finger pointing and understand that fixing the country involves progression through forward thinking and that accountability will come from this process.

Right now, Eamon Gilemore represents the closest thing many people feel to somebody who is representing their beliefs. One of the biggest problems I have with this is that his policies dont stand up to scrutiny and his popularity goes up even when he says nothing. The people of Ireland are so desperate for hope that they are following a person who is selling style in abundance over any credible substance.

The Unions cant be trusted as they only speak for their members and will protect higher paid people at the expense of everybody. Not just that, they pretend to have some sort of interest in fairness yet will not get into intricate debate when their figures and statements dont add up. In truth they are no differant to the government that ignores the tough questions.

All these differant marches have been fairly miserable because people are disilusioned and cynical about the way things are in this country. Does anybody know if it is possible to organise a rally for the people of Ireland that isnt backed or represented by any vested interest group ?

I would get on my soapbox outside the Dail If I thought people would actually get off their asses and try to speak up for themselves ! !

Mr Benevolent

I was thinking the same thing.

Happyman42

Short answer? It's not possible. Why? Because it's probably a thing of the past.
When China's first Premier Zhou Enlaiwas asked in the mid-20th century for his opinion on the historical significance of the 1789 French Revolution, he is said to have replied: "It's too soon to tell.''
We are facing the biggest crisis we have ever faced and the solution isn't simple, hence, no consensus, therefore no credible voice.
I can just imagine the problems faced by Collins etc had to convince and sway people way back then and they hadn't the free disemmination of info on the internet to contend with either.
Unfortunaetly assassination and lucky ricochets aren't gonna solve anything this time, enjoyable as the attempt might be.

pazza

You get my vote...

I was driving this morning and listening about the debt we are loading on all of us, and the opinion polls - and to be honest I am just so tired of it all.

Exactly as the OP - I was inspirational leadership, I don;t care if there is to be pain, just let me believe that its being fixed in the national interests not playing politics with it, this is all too important.

I believe that the political leader do things for their party first and the country second.

What would it take to get a new party, with all the traits as outlined by the OP...(if I win the lottery, expect to see new political party next week sponsored by me).

My view on the leaders:
B Cowen - dead man walking
E Kenny - poodle next door that is harmless but not much of a bark or bite
E Gilmore - should be in PR, but policies

Is there any talent or political interest outside the main parties (and that are not looney left/facist right)?

Welease

Wouldn't make a jot of difference, you would never reach universal agreement between the politicians, or economists or businessmen or emplyees anyway..
It would continue to be a mish mash of opinions and half thruths anyway depending on perspective, because thats the nature of economics, policy, strategy etc.

And lets face it.. the bulk of the Irish didn't listen to common sense during the "good" times, they haven't shown much inclination to listen to common sense during the downturn if the popularity surge for Gilmore is any indication..

digme

How come America has
Ron Paul, Max Keiser and Peter Schiff? And who the hell do we have? Is it that we have no passion? They seem to have patriotism by the bucket load in America.Honestly, I've come to think we're just too bloody comfy and lazy to be honest, but that needs to change.
We need to bring the ruling families of ireland to their knees and get our country back,as now our country is renamed to "angloirishland".

Nice post op I think everyone wants what your saying,we just need something or someone to network us all together.

Drumpot

Welease wrote: »

Wouldn't make a jot of difference, you would never reach universal agreement between the politicians, or economists or businessmen or emplyees anyway..
It would continue to be a mish mash of opinions and half thruths anyway depending on perspective, because thats the nature of economics, policy, strategy etc.

And lets face it.. the bulk of the Irish didn't listen to common sense during the "good" times, they haven't shown much inclination to listen to common sense during the downturn if the popularity surge for Gilmore is any indication..

Nothing focus's the mind like a crisis. Yes, we ignored the warning signs and all kept our heads down while the going was tough, but thats no reason to keep beating ourselves and our reputation up continually.

We are hard on ourselves but are not that differant from most societys in democracy whereby populist agenda's are followed (usually with long term detrimental repurcussions). There will always be a society we can compare certain aspects to and beat ourselves up because "why cant we be more like them" , but in truth things are USUALLY not as bad as we think. Alot of what "us Irish" do is simply human nature. This doesnt excuse our actions, but it explains it and only by awknowledging it can we move forward.

Right now this country is not just in a financial depression, its in a psychological depression. From a very basic level when people are depressed their self esteem is low, they are sometimes self destructive and they struggle to pick themselves up, as such they view the world as this cesspit of pure unforgiving hell. Many of the responses on boards.ie represent the pain and suffering of people who do not really know who to turn to, what to do or if there is any hope of this country getting out of this crisis.

This is working to Labour's advantage because they are offering words of encouragement. This is only one of the many things that this country needs. The fact it is enough for some people, just highlights the desperation that the Irish People feel.

Sadly, I can honestly say I havent done much or enough to try to have the courage to match my convictions. I have considered politics but feel its a bit poisonous for my principles!

I understand that a utopian society is a very tough dream to make a reality but if , at the very least we are all on board with the pain that HAS to come, we can work collectively to improve our country's prosperity.

I take exception when differant sections of society feel that they should be above pain (doesnt mean I cant sympathise with them), but do think that the very least the people of Ireland deserve is hope and clarification on the pain that we are expected to endure. Of course all the answers are not necessarily available but at least having the trust of the people will at least help people believe that the countries best interests are being taken care of to the best of our governments ability.

Welease

I don't diagree with what you are saying, but we cannot just ignore the way people react, it's what got us in this mess, and it will either get us out quickly or prolong the difficulties.

This is an Irish Economy forum, you would imagine that there would be some level of common understanding of the issues, and how one would go about solving those..

There isn't.. there is the usual prejudices, misinformation, arrogance, anger, posturing and ensuring that someone else continues to shoulder more of the pain (from all sides).. And this is from people who would have expressed an interest in understanding the deeper problems and solutions by partaking in such discussions..

There is no (imho) "we the people" in Ireland (or other countries for that matter), it's just not in human nature.. If we were given the opportunity to have such a spokesman right now, even this microcosm of a forum could not come up with a single plan on how the problem should be solved (as per the unending PS vs PrS debates on here)..

Maybe I'm just becoming one of those who wish the government would stop dicking about, do the budget and deal with the problem.. at this stage the what-if scenarios are becomming mind numbingly boring and probably worse than the actual reality itself..

dan_d

I agree with everyone here:D:D:D:D

I'm fed up.I'd love to have someone with that simple notion of common sense in their being in power. Or even just talking. I've no idea who to believe - heard Brian cowen on the TV last night, sounded relatively convincing, heard David McW and James Reilly on the radio this evening, sounds equally convincing. Only conclusion I can come to is that they're all lying through their teeth on the basis of politics and popularity and what they want the "markets" to believe, and I personally would appreciate some French or German dude to come in, look at the numbers and say yes, no, or maybe. An unbiased opinion, if you will.

Either way, I'm SICK TO DEATH of the whole friggin' mess and how much talking there is going on about it and I wish they'd just shut up talking and do something - ANYTHING - to even begin to solve it.

Amhran Nua

pazza wrote: »

Is there any talent or political interest outside the main parties (and that are not looney left/facist right)?

Check out www.amhrannua.com. I'm one of the founders of that group, and I've spent the past year and a half wearing myself out trying to get people to listen. Local and national radio, mailing runs, the internet, newspapers the length and breadth of the country, we've done a lot of publicity work. The end result is that most people are more interested in getting their potholes seen to and fences put up, and looking after the interests of geographical regions drawn up by a British beaurocrat who never visited Ireland, than in dealing with the national issues.

One of the ideas we'll be supporting can be found here to give you an idea of the perspective. We've no associaton with either the extreme left or right, just normal people doing normal things who have had enough.

I don't know, I'm edging towards the opinion that by the time things get desperate enough for people to look up from the parish pump, it will be too late to make the needed changes.

Kippure

Drumpot wrote: »

I have been talking about this with friends and family and nobody seems to be able to find a person who speaks for the people.

The people of Ireland want:

1. Information

• What exactly is going on and why the banks are being bailed out, its not good enough to give half arsed answers to such an important decision thats being made on our countries behalf

2 Debate

• An open forum debate (ala US presidential elections) between educated economists and the main politicians involved in debating the merits of any alternative we may choose.

3. Belief

• A person they can believe in, somebody who respects the people enough to be up front and honest. Somebody who is not afraid to say the truth even if it effects their popularity.

4. Hope

• People want to believe that what is being done is for the greater good. It simply looks like the government are just afraid to let the banks fend for themselves and as such are burdening us with debt for decades to come.

5. Inspiration.

• Its understandable that people are so disilussioned with the policies of FF because they do not inspire and they do not fill people with confidence by getting defencive when asked to elaborate on their policies/decisions. If you are passionate about what you believe in, about what you are doing and you can articulate yourself well, you will inspire. Neither the government or many of the opposition party members seem capable of doing either.

6. Trust/Respect

• These are earned, not won by an election. Few people have trust in any of our politicians across the board and when we speak of the respect people have for them, its more about respecting a certain party/politician more then another whom they distrust ,as opposed to actually respecting them for their qualities.

7.Self Confidence

• We want to feel good about ourselves again. To do so, we have to stand up for our principles and we have to cast aside our prejudices and narrow minded finger pointing and understand that fixing the country involves progression through forward thinking and that accountability will come from this process.

Right now, Eamon Gilemore represents the closest thing many people feel to somebody who is representing their beliefs. One of the biggest problems I have with this is that his policies dont stand up to scrutiny and his popularity goes up even when he says nothing. The people of Ireland are so desperate for hope that they are following a person who is selling style in abundance over any credible substance.

The Unions cant be trusted as they only speak for their members and will protect higher paid people at the expense of everybody. Not just that, they pretend to have some sort of interest in fairness yet will not get into intricate debate when their figures and statements dont add up. In truth they are no differant to the government that ignores the tough questions.

All these differant marches have been fairly miserable because people are disilusioned and cynical about the way things are in this country. Does anybody know if it is possible to organise a rally for the people of Ireland that isnt backed or represented by any vested interest group ?

I would get on my soapbox outside the Dail If I thought people would actually get off their asses and try to speak up for themselves ! !

There was one man who spoke the truth and for me represented joe public. He was laughed at by the very people who got us into this mess. He was met by a wall of politicial incompatace and red tape. He was one of few who said we would end up in this mess, still no one listened.

On 8 February 2010, he announced his resignation from Fine Gael and from Dáil Éireann, due to having "virtually no influence or input" into shaping Fine Gael's economic policies at a time of economic upheaval.

You could see he wanted to help so much, but wasnt allowed. In my veiw he was more then qualified for the job. He spoke honestly about what was happening to this country.

This man GEORGE LEE should make a come back and tell it how it is...

All people want is a yes or no answer. Politicans cant do either of these on any subject.

silverstrand

Pretty soon no one will be able to criticize as during the last decade no one could seriously discuss the problems without bombarded by schools of debate stoppers with very oppressive objectives.

I would say that no one at this stage should be scratching their head and overwhelmed with bewilderment. I accept there was extreme lack of experience within the Green Party and that they really do believe it is every ones' fault including them. It is hard to argue when it is a genuine conviction. However, as soon as any hint of conflict of interest, any hint of corruption of any serious order arose they had a professional obligation to call an election by stepping down. The fact is they instead jammed the door. Leaving this twilight zone of people appalled by what they hear and the idea that nothing has happened as a result and business as usual. Is overwhelming Irish people. Along with massive decisions being made by the same people.

When the greens jammed the door, there was still a crises. It is a constitutional and sovereign crises in that it affects our immediate national future and brings its status into jeopardy. Even for Argentina the world economy was in a different time. Now it appears deeply flawed. This crises ought to have brought all parties together through the President who has the ultimately role to act in such serious crises to protect. Although is answerable to the Taoiseach in such circumstances exceptional crises that affects the state. In this case it is the government is in question. The President therefore ought to have called all parties together had a joint discussion with the head of the Army and got an agreement for A. election. Or B. cross party government with all the front bench and junior, stepping down and a board of real experts not corporate or spin experts to advise. Given the level of crises B. seems like the only sensible option. And healthier for politics as no one party should have to clean up this. As an election at this time would not be quick nor avoid party politics and all that entails. An election date set for a time frame allowing the collective government to work. They should have collectively made decisions on Anglo and the rest with input from the most respected areas of expertise. While a garda and hired independent international investigation team sort out the mess and process the guilty. Then we could hang our dirty washing with some dignity. In that as soon as we fully understood we immediately put a stop. Put the country first, processed the wrong doers openly and expertly. Everyone could focus on recovery and why and how it happened and started to change how we do politics for the future. Clearly politics needs to go through a evolving stage also.

I am hoping for a Miracle now. Maybe we should be not so much marching as visiting the Aras on the bases of having a interim cross party and expert panel government a cross section, (without serving ministers and junior ministers). That would unite the country without the left and right my side your side dangerous division at such a time. Most of the dangerous dye has been cast. But we still have the problem and it will get more overwhelming without able people at the helm.

I just cannot understand the lack of political presence or importance that allows anyone to run for office and then not up hold that very office. If you cant or don't think you can handle the big stuff surely you don't go for it on the hope the big stuff might never happen. It has and the President should have led and been a central director into order.

Is it something Irish, the famine, the civil war some trauma that has stunted an aspect of our development. Makes not want to know but hope it goes away.

hinault

This man would have sorted out the bondholders and the politicians.

Zambia

Maybe Parties instead of accepting candidates should be looking for them.

1:Set up a charitable body staffed by volunteer qualified admin staff. People who work full time at Admin nothing huge.

2: Tell people that if they know someone locally who would be a great leader to nominate them to this body.

3: Once the Body notices a name rising high they submit that name to all political parties
in the area. Plus to the person involved.

This person is now made aware his neighbours, county, country needs him/her and consider him a candidate. They may take up the call they may not.

I know several lecturers that made a lot of sense to me I would be happy to see them run locally. Me and a few others tellin him to run makes scant difference but imagine if they knew a couple of hundred people took the effort...

Maybe I'm dreamin but the problem appears to be that nobody likes the current menu.

Maybe we need to be more pro-active about whats on the menu.