Do you think AIB needed another bailout because...

Min

.....they are totally unrealistic with things like their ads, like how many dairy farmers are expanding at this moment to 280 cows - where would they get the money for extra land, cows, buildings, quota, new dairy equipment and so on.

AIB got another bailout, I guess if we are not customers whether we like it or not, we have to 'be with AIB'.

reilig

Min wrote: »

.....they are totally unrealistic with things like their ads, like how many dairy farmers are expanding at this moment to 280 cows - where would they get the money for extra land, cows, buildings, quota, new dairy equipment and so on.

AIB got another bailout, I guess if we are not customers whether we like it or not, we have to 'be with AIB'.

I heard an analysist talk on the radio this morning. He was saying that if we had let Anglo go under then the state would have gone under because Anglo's total debt is more than the state's total inflow of money per year. He also forgot to mention, or maybe the government just don't want people to know that most of the large private companies in Ireland have money invested in or money borrowed from Anglo. These include the Quinn Group - if it went bankrupt, then we would see 5000 directly employed people lose their jobs and 20000 indirectly employed people lose theirs. Most of the meat processing factories in the country also bank with Anglo. the larger quarry companies like Roadstone, Lagan etc have investments with them.

Up to now, I had always said, close anglo down. But when you look at it this way, if it goes, the state goes and 50000 private sector jobs could go with it as well. I have friends who have been living in Iceland for the last 10 years. They had a great life set up for themselves (even better than the life that we had here), when their economy went bust, the IMF came in. Its almost like living in a third world country there now.

What's going to happen to us? I don't know. Its times like these that i'm glad I have a small bit of land. Its a great cushion - it doesn't yield that much, but its an asset. At least we have the option to grow our own food and even sell it to make money if we have none. Imagine the boat you'd be in if you had paid €500,000 for a 3 bed Semi - d in some ghost town suburb on the outskirts of Dublin 4 years ago. How the hell would you pay for it and how would you feel if it had dropped in valve by 50% and you still owing €480,000 on the mortgage???

johngalway

I don't know if they need it or not. I'm like a lot of people in that I don't have the in depth understanding of the figures. I do know they've contributed to the wrecking of this country along with the Government and the lemmings that followed all their advice. Thankfully I am largely debt free, but besides the small farm I own, asset free too Compared to the lemming who bought the €400k or €500k apartment, I am on the high dry ground it seems.

Why none of them would listen to sense three or four years ago I do not know. The area in which I live is a great tourist area, houses and sites sold for stupidly high money. But, I saw back then that the very rich had stopped buying, that the same houses and the same sites weren't shifting - at all.

Was going out with a girl who was an estate agent at the time. She was involved in setting up a property related business and asked my opinion. Basically I said that property would fall in value over 20%. She told me I hadn't a clue and sure it could only go up in value.

Guess we were both wrong :rolleyes:

The old people were 100% right. Never put all your eggs in one basket. The country was built on the quicksand foundation whos corner stone reads "Property values cannot ever possibly decrease". And those that said they could should "commit suicide".

I know of a few I wouldn't mind seeing the end of, won't name them, we all know who they are.

5live

State borrowing E45 million a day to fund country. 4.5 million people. Thats E10 euro per head per day. Now 1.1 million working. Thats E40 euro/taxpayer/day. Thats E14600/year that we have to find per taxpayer in cuts and taxes on average to balance the books. AIB is the least of my problems. I am a customer there with 30 years and never late with a loan repayment but 8 years ago they gave me oral confirmation of approval of a loan and i went building. When it came time to pay for concrete they informed me no money coming so i was left with no cash and only half a building. I struggled for 4 years and got sorted. Then when i Fe***d the regional man out of it while trying to move banks i was told the loan was approved. Now i also have shares in AIB but baby will i dance if they burn!!!!!!!

supersean1999

i have to laugh. iv had jeep finance since 2002, and various small loans all paid off never missed a payment, i need to change the jeep was going to borrow 5 and add 2 cash myself, the tsb who i had previous finance with said they will only borrow to a 07 or higher and only over 2 yrs, 3 yrs 08 4 yrs 09 etc, and aib said even though my account is healthy i only lodge sparadically, haha what do they expect a self employed farmer builder to do,

jmayo

reilig wrote: »

I heard an analysist talk on the radio this morning. He was saying that if we had let Anglo go under then the state would have gone under because Anglo's total debt is more than the state's total inflow of money per year. He also forgot to mention, or maybe the government just don't want people to know that most of the large private companies in Ireland have money invested in or money borrowed from Anglo. These include the Quinn Group - if it went bankrupt, then we would see 5000 directly employed people lose their jobs and 20000 indirectly employed people lose theirs. Most of the meat processing factories in the country also bank with Anglo. the larger quarry companies like Roadstone, Lagan etc have investments with them.

Yes some companies could be have been in difficulties, but if their business was not sound then they would be in trouble anyway.
Hell most companies are now in difficulties, particularly if they are construction related or retail.

One of the reasons Quinn group got into trouble was he and the family thought they might like to own big chunk of a bank.
I beleive it was ego.
Then the construciton collapse hit their building related businesses and the credit crunch cut retail spending in their hotels/pub chains.
Then he pulled the stroke of pulling funds out of his insurance division to try and keep the merry go round going.

As for some of the meat processors going I wouldn't be adverse to seeing the likes of the goodmans and ellis of this country getting their ar**es kicked and farmers getting a fairer deal from newly setup processors.

But to say all the jobs in these companies would go is IMHO stretching it.
Someone would buy the working profitable enterprises and keep them running.
Someone would even buy the not so profitable ones and trim them back in order to become profitable.
ff and lenihan are great at spreading the fear when it suits.

As it is we have now taken on the World's biggest corporate loss making entity and made their debts our soverign debts.
Iceland will be hail and hearty and we will be stuck paying off these debts for decades.

BTW it doesn't matter if someone has money borrrowed from a bank that goes bust as their loans are sold on.
Where does affect them is if they have overdraft facilities.

reilig

Personally I would not like to see any meat factory go to the wall and screw farmers like Ellis brothers did a few years ago. If any meat factories do go bust, then they are going to screw the small man - the farmer first, just like Ellis did. On top of that, i don't give a dam about Sean Quinn or the Quinn family, but again, if they go bust, like the Ellis Family, they have enough money put away to ensure that they they can live comfortably for the rest of their days. Its the small man that will suffer - the workers on just above the minimum wage, those with mortgages and small kids.

Quinn might have pulled a stroke to keep himself afloat, but at the end of the day, it ended up costing jobs. I remember sean quinn himself delivering stone to our house in the early 80's. He started off with nothing. Took loans to buy a lorry and a JCB to load it and started selling loads of stone out of a pit on family land. He came from nothing and he knows that. You go to Ballyconnell or Derrylin. Sean Quinn is a working man's hero for what he has done there. He wasn't out to screw anybody, he gave back to the community and is still giving. It broke his heart that people were made redundant when the examiner came in. He was proud of the jobs that he had brought to his own community.

Its sink or swim. If we sink, it doesn't mean that when we resurface that we will be starting out on a clean slate - just as Iceland found out. Because they went bankrupt, they cannot get loans to restart their economy. Any business that was relying on an overdraught went bust because they could not get it. Their health system crashed because most of the medical professionals went abroad to take up work that they actually got paid in.

If you look back, I never said that all of the jobs would go in the event of Ireland going bankrupt, but some of them would certainly go. If we go bankrupt, we go back to how we lived in the 1980's (second world living). Huge unemployment rates (we have that now, but going bankrupt will only increase that), no health system, no education system, no government, county council etc. Nothing. We will be governed by the IMF. We will be owned by the IMF. There will be a MASS exidous of trained professionals to countries that can pay them and will pay them. I know what I'd choose.

EDIT: Maybe the simplest way to put it is that i would prefer to have half of what i have than have nothing. If the IMF come in, I'll be fine. I have a bit of land. I'll be able to sell my produce at a fair price. But what about the 90% of people who aren't farmers?? They will have a choice of either leaving this country or living on the amount that the IMF allows them.

jmayo wrote: »

Yes some companies could be have been in difficulties, but if their business was not sound then they would be in trouble anyway.
Hell most companies are now in difficulties, particularly if they are construction related or retail.

One of the reasons Quinn group got into trouble was he and the family thought they might like to own big chunk of a bank.
I beleive it was ego.
Then the construciton collapse hit their building related businesses and the credit crunch cut retail spending in their hotels/pub chains.
Then he pulled the stroke of pulling funds out of his insurance division to try and keep the merry go round going.

As for some of the meat processors going I wouldn't be adverse to seeing the likes of the goodmans and ellis of this country getting their ar**es kicked and farmers getting a fairer deal from newly setup processors.

But to say all the jobs in these companies would go is IMHO stretching it.
Someone would buy the working profitable enterprises and keep them running.
Someone would even buy the not so profitable ones and trim them back in order to become profitable.
ff and lenihan are great at spreading the fear when it suits.

As it is we have now taken on the World's biggest corporate loss making entity and made their debts our soverign debts.
Iceland will be hail and hearty and we will be stuck paying off these debts for decades.

BTW it doesn't matter if someone has money borrrowed from a bank that goes bust as their loans are sold on.
Where does affect them is if they have overdraft facilities.

pakalasa

We haven't seen the worst of it yet by any means.
The first wave was construction but the second wave will be the civil service. This became bloated under Bertie, financed by the easy tax receipts from construction.
We (the exchequer) are currently spending €50bn a year but only taking in around €30bn. We cant keep borrowing the difference so the only viable solution is to axe jobs left right and centre in the civil service.
Either that or, ditch the Euro and go back to the punt. This is what David McWilliams is suggesting we do. In fairness, he was right about everything else.
Either way - tough times ahead!

whelan1

realistically if you where leader of this country wouldnt you offer to reduce your salary in the current climate and jail all the ****ers that caused the whole mess... our government are sitting by and making an even bigger hole for themselves , keep digging boys

irishh_bob

reilig wrote: »

Personally I would not like to see any meat factory go to the wall and screw farmers like Ellis brothers did a few years ago. If any meat factories do go bust, then they are going to screw the small man - the farmer first, just like Ellis did. On top of that, i don't give a dam about Sean Quinn or the Quinn family, but again, if they go bust, like the Ellis Family, they have enough money put away to ensure that they they can live comfortably for the rest of their days. Its the small man that will suffer - the workers on just above the minimum wage, those with mortgages and small kids.

Quinn might have pulled a stroke to keep himself afloat, but at the end of the day, it ended up costing jobs. I remember sean quinn himself delivering stone to our house in the early 80's. He started off with nothing. Took loans to buy a lorry and a JCB to load it and started selling loads of stone out of a pit on family land. He came from nothing and he knows that. You go to Ballyconnell or Derrylin. Sean Quinn is a working man's hero for what he has done there. He wasn't out to screw anybody, he gave back to the community and is still giving. It broke his heart that people were made redundant when the examiner came in. He was proud of the jobs that he had brought to his own community.

Its sink or swim. If we sink, it doesn't mean that when we resurface that we will be starting out on a clean slate - just as Iceland found out. Because they went bankrupt, they cannot get loans to restart their economy. Any business that was relying on an overdraught went bust because they could not get it. Their health system crashed because most of the medical professionals went abroad to take up work that they actually got paid in.

If you look back, I never said that all of the jobs would go in the event of Ireland going bankrupt, but some of them would certainly go. If we go bankrupt, we go back to how we lived in the 1980's (second world living). Huge unemployment rates (we have that now, but going bankrupt will only increase that), no health system, no education system, no government, county council etc. Nothing. We will be governed by the IMF. We will be owned by the IMF. There will be a MASS exidous of trained professionals to countries that can pay them and will pay them. I know what I'd choose.

EDIT: Maybe the simplest way to put it is that i would prefer to have half of what i have than have nothing. If the IMF come in, I'll be fine. I have a bit of land. I'll be able to sell my produce at a fair price. But what about the 90% of people who aren't farmers?? They will have a choice of either leaving this country or living on the amount that the IMF allows them.

sean quinn if he lived to be 200 , couldnt repay what he has cost this country through his ANGLO shenanigans and as for the line about 5000 people loosing thier jobs if QUINN group went to the wall , 5000 people per week lost thier job in the past eighteen months across the whole economy

this adoration of sean quinn is symptomatic of the parochial , look after my own patch gombeenery which has plagued our country for generations , big deal if he breathed life into west cavan or east fermanagh

maidhc

irishh_bob wrote: »

this adoration of sean quinn is symptomatic of the parochial , look after my own patch gombeenery which has plagued our country for generations , big deal if he breathed life into west cavan or east fermanagh

He built up the kind of business this country needs. We don't need more farmers, builders, teachers, civil servants or mortgage brokers. We badly need a strong export industry and services sector. Quinn provided both of these, but got it badly wrong with Anglo. I feel very sorry for him, and I am from deep south!

whelan1

the only thing wrong with sean quinn was greed

irishh_bob

maidhc wrote: »

He built up the kind of business this country needs. We don't need more farmers, builders, teachers, civil servants or mortgage brokers. We badly need a strong export industry and services sector. Quinn provided both of these, but got it badly wrong with Anglo. I feel very sorry for him, and I am from deep south!

you feel sorry for a billionaire who got bailed out by the irish tax payer , geez , your some chump , maybe you should arrange a raffle for him at your local :rolleyes:

sean quinn isnt going to bed tonight , worried whether he will still have a roof over his head next month or next week , hes not worried about his kids future , the guy is a parasite who deserves to be in jail along with all the other spivs like fingleton , neary and the daddy of the disaster , bertie aherne

the guy gambled and gambled big only it was us the tax payer who picked up the tab

blue5000

I was listening to a bit of David McWilliams on the radio today. The gov are giving AIB 3billion, at todays market price they could have bought the whole bank for 600million. Its just f****n crazy.

Why should we as taxpayers have to bail out the banks? We are going to pay for their mistakes at least twice, first with higher interest rates, and secondly with higher taxes. Never mind the taxpayers money that is being diverted away from essential services that a modern democratically? run country needs.

johngalway

maidhc wrote: »

We don't need more farmers. We badly need a strong export industry.

:rolleyes:

pakalasa

Anyone listen to Brian Lenihan last night on Prime Time. It was his last sentence that said the most. It went along the lines of.
- "The cost of bailing out the banks will be 1.5bn Euro per annum". I take this to be the interests payments on the estimated 50bn.
- He more or less went on to say that this is nothing compared to the exchequer deficit, the difference in tax receipts and the cost of running the country.

The exchequer deficit for last year (2009) was 24.6bn.

It's the cost of running the civil service that's the real killer, the cost of the bank bailouts is only loose change, in comparison.

whelan1

so when are they going to do something about it.... if we had a lad working that wasn't pulling his weight he would be gone pronto , the longer these wasters are in their jobs the more its costing us

blue5000

+1

Dozer1

Did anyone else see where they showed what else you could get for 29 billion, the worst part was when it said it would only run the HSE for 2 years....the civil service is holding this country back from any chance of recovery with wage demands etc, and they have the croke park agreement to hold onto now aswell.

johngalway

Dozer1 wrote: »

Did anyone else see where they showed what else you could get for 29 billion, the worst part was when it said it would only run the HSE for 2 years....

The funny thing in that segment was one particular comparison. We could either..

...Run the HSE for almost two years...

OR

...Run NASA for two years...

FFS!

whelan1

on a side note had ds in hospital the other day getting bloods , they said the results should be back in january:eek: they have to go to germany... wouldnt want to be sick now would ya:mad:

5live

johngalway wrote: »

...Run NASA for two years...

I choose NASA. Less chance of spacers:). Public service costing 20 billion. OAP and dole costing 20 billion. Services costing 10 billion. You all dont need me to give you examples of peoples 'rights' and expectations. We even have it ourselves. We are a second world country living a first world lifestyle. The sums dont add up. The sooner we realise it or IMF realises it for us the quicker we can get back to worrying about important things. Like football and hurling:D

jfh

i've a friend gone over to iceland on holidays this week, can't wait for an ordinary mans view of the place, because according to macwilliams yesterday iceland did the right thing and are already showing signs of growth. lenihan put his spin on it later last night confirming that country was well and truly fecked.
i think we should consider following their lead in bringing bertie to the dock.
Iceland's parliament has voted to bring court charges for negligence against former Prime Minister Geir Haarde, who led the country during events leading up to its banking collapse in 2008.

reilig

irishh_bob wrote: »

you feel sorry for a billionaire who got bailed out by the irish tax payer , geez , your some chump , maybe you should arrange a raffle for him at your local :rolleyes:

sean quinn isnt going to bed tonight , worried whether he will still have a roof over his head next month or next week , hes not worried about his kids future , the guy is a parasite who deserves to be in jail along with all the other spivs like fingleton , neary and the daddy of the disaster , bertie aherne

the guy gambled and gambled big only it was us the tax payer who picked up the tab

When did we have to bail out Quinn?????
Now, we can call him greedy for wanting to try to maintain the value of his shares and you can call him a parasite because the state has had to guarantee his insurance business - but as far as I am aware, the state has to put no money into his business.

irishh_bob

pakalasa wrote: »

Anyone listen to Brian Lenihan last night on Prime Time. It was his last sentence that said the most. It went along the lines of.
- "The cost of bailing out the banks will be 1.5bn Euro per annum". I take this to be the interests payments on the estimated 50bn.
- He more or less went on to say that this is nothing compared to the exchequer deficit, the difference in tax receipts and the cost of running the country.

The exchequer deficit for last year (2009) was 24.6bn.

It's the cost of running the civil service that's the real killer, the cost of the bank bailouts is only loose change, in comparison.

wages to the public sector ( redicolously high as they are ) at least gets respent in the economy , the billions being poured into anglo are going down a blackhole , surely even a fianna fail supporter like yourself can see this

5live

jfh wrote: »

i think we should consider following their lead in bringing bertie to the dock.

And what do we charge him with? Being stupid? According to the polls 25% are still committing that crime. You can call for them to be prosecuted all you want but you have to find evidence of a crime. You cant backdate illegality. I would love to put loads of them in prison but NO crime has been commited. NONE. If you want to punish them then wait till june. 3 byelections lost in april and first important vote after that will be fun. Assuming of course that the independants stay the course in the budget. AND THAT COULD BE DODGY

whelan1

and what damage will have been done by april ? NOW is the time to get rid

irishh_bob

reilig wrote: »

When did we have to bail out Quinn?????
Now, we can call him greedy for wanting to try to maintain the value of his shares and you can call him a parasite because the state has had to guarantee his insurance business - but as far as I am aware, the state has to put no money into his business.

you are aware that quinn went into administration at the begining of the year ???

i presume your also aware that sean quinn mortgaged his entire business in order to buy over three billion euro worth of anglo shares less than three years ago , ( just before he handed over three hundred million as a gift to his own kids i might add ) , that he was able to borrow against his own business to buy shares is extrordinary in itself , you cant borrow to buy shares , its not like buying property

the bailing out of anglo is designed to save people like sean quinn , were he an ordinary joe , he would be living in a one bed flat now , such was his wrecklessness

reilig

jfh wrote: »

i've a friend gone over to iceland on holidays this week, can't wait for an ordinary mans view of the place, because according to macwilliams yesterday iceland did the right thing and are already showing signs of growth. lenihan put his spin on it later last night confirming that country was well and truly fecked.
i think we should consider following their lead in bringing bertie to the dock.
Iceland's parliament has voted to bring court charges for negligence against former Prime Minister Geir Haarde, who led the country during events leading up to its banking collapse in 2008.

McWilliams is a Journalist who always says what the people want to hear. He creates spin to generate interest in himself so that he can sell books and charge huge fees to speak at conferences.

The simple facts are that if we go bankrupt then we would be ostracised from financial markets. Capital flows to Ireland would stop. Also, the IMF would step in to restructure the debt to ensure that private debt holders lose as little as possible.
All of the governmeny controlled services that we currently have would effectively receive only the amount of funding that could be generated within the state- Our health service, cancer care, disability services, Education Services, local authorities that service roads, water and sewerage. Social welfare. As bad as all of these services are already, how would we feel if all of these services were reduced by 50%. If all state subsidies were removed from industry, how would we attract foreign investment into the country? Williams fails to tell you about this because it doesn't sell any books for him.

reilig

irishh_bob wrote: »

you are aware that quinn went into administration at the begining of the year ???

i presume your also aware that sean quinn mortgaged his entire business in order to buy over three billion euro worth of anglo shares less than three years ago , ( just before he handed over three hundred million as a gift to his own kids i might add ) , that he was able to borrow against his own business to buy shares is extrordinary in itself , you cant borrow to buy shares , its not like buying property

the bailing out of anglo is designed to save people like sean quinn , were he an ordinary joe , he would be living in a one bed flat now , such was his wrecklessness

Quinn is going to pay back what he owes anglo, is he not?? Unlike the builders across the country who have no money to pay back what they owe and no intention to pay it back if they do ever have the money to do so. Quinn went into administration because he owes this money to anglo?? They intend to recover all of teh money from him????

Tipp Man

irishh_bob wrote: »

you are aware that quinn went into administration at the begining of the year ???

i presume your also aware that sean quinn mortgaged his entire business in order to buy over three billion euro worth of anglo shares less than three years ago , ( just before he handed over three hundred million as a gift to his own kids i might add ) , that he was able to borrow against his own business to buy shares is extrordinary in itself , you cant borrow to buy shares , its not like buying property

the bailing out of anglo is designed to save people like sean quinn , were he an ordinary joe , he would be living in a one bed flat now , such was his wrecklessness

Bob I'm not in agreement with you on this 1. Quinn gambled big for years and won lots, he then gambled big on Anglo and lost huge amounts. Thats the way it goes, ya win some, ya loose some and I'm sure he'd be the first to say it

He did nothing illegal that i am aware of and has not received any money from the government. Just because his insurance company is in admin, so what, there are loads of companies in administration. He didn't gamble with shareholders (i.e the public) money, he gambled with his own and his families money. They are still trading profitable (huge losses were result of the huge right off of the Anglo related loans, about 700m off the top of my head, underwriting losses were once off due to the floods), are still paying all their claims and are still paying the wages of a few thousand people. Admitedly some of the cash transfers out of the insurance company were dodgy but that was up to the regulator to patrol. The insurance company is rumoured to have up too 30 potential suitors so it can't be that bad a company

He has lost an absolute fortune in the last few years but I really don't see what your problem is with him. He bought shares with loans but so did loads of people, the real madness is giving a fella 3 billion to buy shares.

I feel no pity for him, but I also feel no hate or vengence towards him. I have no affiliation to Quinn, any of his companies or Cavan or that district by the way

Tipp Man

As mentioned previusly the real problem in this country is the public sector bill

It needs to be nearly half of what is it now and there seems to be absolutely no political will in the country to achieve this, they need to reduce the numbers by about 50,000 and they need to reduce the wages by 15-20%. All forms of social welfare need to be dramtically reduced, by as much as a third i would say

The welfare and the public sector are going to break this country - or should i say they have already done so its just not official yet

reilig

Tipp Man wrote: »

As mentioned previusly the real problem in this country is the public sector bill

It needs to be nearly half of what is it now and there seems to be absolutely no political will in the country to achieve this, they need to reduce the numbers by about 50,000 and they need to reduce the wages by 15-20%. All forms of social welfare need to be dramtically reduced, by as much as a third i would say

The welfare and the public sector are going to break this country - or should i say they have already done so its just not official yet

That's true. I have clients who won't take up a job because they get too much on dole or disability benefit. Almost every day I hear "its not worth my while getting out of bed for that" or "If I'm to give up my dole and my medical card and my rent allowance I'll need to earning at least €25k per year". Being on the dole isn't great, but the payments are and they offer very little incentive to people to get up off their ass and do some work.

There's a third aspect that should be added to the Public Sector Wage Bill and Social welfare bill that you pointed out above, and that is the Unions. They have a lot to answer for the way that our public sector is and for the unofficial work to rule that happens in the majority of public sector offices.

Tipp Man

reilig wrote: »

That's true. I have clients who won't take up a job because they get too much on dole or disability benefit. Almost every day I hear "its not worth my while getting out of bed for that" or "If I'm to give up my dole and my medical card and my rent allowance I'll need to earning at least €25k per year". Being on the dole isn't great, but the payments are and they offer very little incentive to people to get up off their ass and do some work.

There's a third aspect that should be added to the Public Sector Wage Bill and Social welfare bill that you pointed out above, and that is the Unions. They have a lot to answer for the way that our public sector is and for the unofficial work to rule that happens in the majority of public sector offices.

Don't get me started on those unions:mad:

5live

whelan1 wrote: »

and what damage will have been done by april ? NOW is the time to get rid

Look, i agree with you. But there is NO way to remove this shower outside of them losing a dail vote on an economic issue or they resign. Or revolution and i dont think any sane person wants to go there. When we vote, we vote to elect them for 5 years and also give them the power to elect a taoiseach. We have no way of removing them unless they decide to go and no ammount of whining or b******g is going to change that. And i whine and b***h about it with the best of them. Its just something that people dont think about when they vote IMO. And we have to take responsibility for the idiots we elect to represent us. And we have a few more months to do that yet even though it may grate and p*** us off

reilig

5live wrote: »

Look, i agree with you. But there is NO way to remove this shower outside of them losing a dail vote on an economic issue or they resign. Or revolution and i dont think any sane person wants to go there. When we vote, we vote to elect them for 5 years and also give them the power to elect a taoiseach. We have no way of removing them unless they decide to go and no ammount of whining or b******g is going to change that. And i whine and b***h about it with the best of them. Its just something that people dont think about when they vote IMO. And we have to take responsibility for the idiots we elect to represent us. And we have a few more months to do that yet even though it may grate and p*** us off

I'm not an FF supporter or a green, but I still have to ask this question: What good is removing them going to do if we replace them with more of the same?? I don't see any politician or political party out there with anything different. Ok, a change in faces will cheer us all up for a few weeks, but nobody has an idea of what we should be doing to get us out of this mess and you can be sure that no matter who gets in after the election, it won't be long till they cosy up to the bankers too. I don't think it will really matter anyway because the senior civil servants will tell them what to do anyway.

pakalasa

Tipp Man wrote: »

Don't get me started on those unions:mad:

Have you noticed that these guys have been very quiet these last few months. I think the reality of the situation is starting to hit home there too.

Tipp Man

pakalasa wrote: »

Have you noticed that these guys have been very quiet these last few months. I think the reality of the situation is starting to hit home there too.

they've had nothing to complain about recently. The Croke Park agreement is a joke which has kept them quite. The country is going done in smoke and the Public Sector which is hugely overinflated in personnel and hugely overpaid is ammune from any more cuts till 2014. That is some kind of sick joke. If we had a highly efficient public sector then it would be one thing but the waste and inefficiency that goes on there is simply too serioius now. And the sole blame for this inefficiency and waste is the unions, they are protecting the useless workers behind "the frontline" workers

The public sector are the new aristrocracy of this country. Guaranteed defined benifit pension available to a lot of them at 55 years old. A tax free lump sum on retirement. Get a permanent position and its a job for life. No responsibility and seemingly no way of getting the sack. Hell you can mess up to the high heavens like Neary the ex financial regulator and still get a huge golden handshake. And on top of that they are earning top money while they are working

the rest of us are mugs to be putting up with this crap

5live

My own particular favourite is productivity increases paid to retired public servants. How did that work exactly? Did they sneak in at night when the building was dark and do a few hours?

Tora Bora

5live wrote: »

My own particular favourite is productivity increases paid to retired public servants. How did that work exactly? Did they sneak in at night when the building was dark and do a few hours?

Nah, that's nothing. What about the compensation payments to prison officers, for overtime lost, whilst they are on annual leave:D:D

irishh_bob

reilig wrote: »

Quinn is going to pay back what he owes anglo, is he not?? Unlike the builders across the country who have no money to pay back what they owe and no intention to pay it back if they do ever have the money to do so. Quinn went into administration because he owes this money to anglo?? They intend to recover all of teh money from him????

i said in jest earlier that sean quinn would need to live to be 200 in order to pay back what he has cost the state , you obviously believe he intends to be earning for that long :rolleyes:

as for your ( fianna fail press office like ) post about david mc williams and about how no one would ever invest a cent in ireland again were anglo to be allowed fail

mc williams has been predicting the bursting of the property bubble for at least five years , back then , no one wanted to hear such predictions , including the average man in the street , mc williams was on vincent browne the other night and made the point that we need a banking system in this country , NOT THIS BANKING SYSTEM

mcwilliams has been consistently found to be correct in terms of his predictions on the cost of anglo and of the rammifications for the country , he is much more than a journalist , he has extensive experience in dealing with the world of fianancial markets , il take his word anyday of the week before that of a ( follow to hell and back ) fianna fail hack

jfh

5live wrote: »

And what do we charge him with? Being stupid? According to the polls 25% are still committing that crime. You can call for them to be prosecuted all you want but you have to find evidence of a crime. You cant backdate illegality. I would love to put loads of them in prison but NO crime has been commited. NONE. If you want to punish them then wait till june. 3 byelections lost in april and first important vote after that will be fun. Assuming of course that the independants stay the course in the budget. AND THAT COULD BE DODGY

understand we cannot charge the him with anything, bertie may be many things but he's not stupid but if there was a way to commuicate to the rest of the world that ireland will not tolerate mismanagement & corruption. i'd be for that. round up a lot more than Bertie too!

irishh_bob

Tipp Man wrote: »

Bob I'm not in agreement with you on this 1. Quinn gambled big for years and won lots, he then gambled big on Anglo and lost huge amounts. Thats the way it goes, ya win some, ya loose some and I'm sure he'd be the first to say it

He did nothing illegal that i am aware of and has not received any money from the government. Just because his insurance company is in admin, so what, there are loads of companies in administration. He didn't gamble with shareholders (i.e the public) money, he gambled with his own and his families money. They are still trading profitable (huge losses were result of the huge right off of the Anglo related loans, about 700m off the top of my head, underwriting losses were once off due to the floods), are still paying all their claims and are still paying the wages of a few thousand people. Admitedly some of the cash transfers out of the insurance company were dodgy but that was up to the regulator to patrol. The insurance company is rumoured to have up too 30 potential suitors so it can't be that bad a company

He has lost an absolute fortune in the last few years but I really don't see what your problem is with him. He bought shares with loans but so did loads of people, the real madness is giving a fella 3 billion to buy shares.

I feel no pity for him, but I also feel no hate or vengence towards him. I have no affiliation to Quinn, any of his companies or Cavan or that district by the way

what do you mean he gambled with his own money , he borrowed money from anglo to purchase anglo shares and used his own business as collateral , that he was able to borrow to buy shares is in itself highly unorthodox , he has no hope of ever paying back the three billion , the mans assetts mainly consist of hotels and we all know what the hotel industry is like at the moment , sure , his insurance business is a money maker but as i said earlier , he would need to live to 200 to repay what he owes

NAMA most likely owns most of his hotels at this stage , the bailout of anglo was made nesscessery by the likes of this mans ( although not him alone ) wrecklessness , were anglo not to have been bailed out , quinn would be forced to sell the shirt of his back but then again , quinn is a life long supporter of fianna fail

irishh_bob

reilig wrote: »

I'm not an FF supporter or a green, but I still have to ask this question: What good is removing them going to do if we replace them with more of the same?? I don't see any politician or political party out there with anything different. Ok, a change in faces will cheer us all up for a few weeks, but nobody has an idea of what we should be doing to get us out of this mess and you can be sure that no matter who gets in after the election, it won't be long till they cosy up to the bankers too. I don't think it will really matter anyway because the senior civil servants will tell them what to do anyway.

shur , thier all the same , replacing this shower with the other

classic fianna fail supporter line , you dont fool me

Tora Bora

reilig wrote: »

That's true. I have clients who won't take up a job because they get too much on dole or disability benefit. Almost every day I hear "its not worth my while getting out of bed for that" or "If I'm to give up my dole and my medical card and my rent allowance I'll need to earning at least €25k per year". Being on the dole isn't great, but the payments are and they offer very little incentive to people to get up off their ass and do some work.

.

What is done about these clients by FAS?

Do you proactively disqualify them from the dole, and all it's trimmings?

whelan1

well if the imf come in they will be glad to work

Username John

irishh_bob wrote: »

shur , thier all the same , replacing this shower with the other

classic fianna fail supporter line , you dont fool me

Is it?

As a person who doesnt support any party, am asking what is the difference between them - honestly now.
Who out there is a valid replacement. Will we not just hear the same rhetoric from all of them?

Tora Bora

Username John wrote: »

Is it?

As a person who doesnt support any party, am asking what is the difference between them - honestly now.
Who out there is a valid replacement. Will we not just hear the same rhetoric from all of them?

You are perfectly correct there. At the last election, the maniifestos of all parties, promised one and the same thing. More spending, more benefits, more, more, more, more of every thing. The casino was open, and it was play time.
Well now the casino has closed, and no matter who is in power, they will have to follow the same policies, because behind the scenes, the EU have a loaded gun to the head of our finance minister. We have already lost our soverign independence. All the shots are being called by Brussels, and the shadow of the other gun man is on our floor. The IMF guy!
Already this morning top EU finance officials are giving press statements to the effect that Ireland's corporation tax will be upped to the European level in next to no time. Our dept of finance has defended our corp tax system through thick and thin in the past. Now, I guess they have meekly surrendored it, for an assurance that the EU Central bank will step in and buy up our bond issues next spring, when (not if), the markets attack us like dogs dragging out of a piece of meat.

reilig

irishh_bob wrote: »

( follow to hell and back ) fianna fail hack

A FF supporter might find that personal and offensive. This isn't a political forum and I was trying to make sure that my posts didn't become political because I haven't the slightest interest in politics.

McWilliams is a doom and gloom Journalist who just wants people to take notice of him. He will continue to make bubble bursting statements into the future no matter how well the economy is doing and will always have a different view of the political parties in power at the time - no matter if they are FF, FG,Lab etc. its very easy to predict a recession - McWilliams has been doing it since 1990 when his first article was published and he will continue to do it.

shur , thier all the same , replacing this shower with the other

classic fianna fail supporter line , you dont fool me

I was actually kinda suggesting that we should let an outsideer have more control of our finances - like the EU (which looks likely to happen.

Or maybe you can suggest an irish political party that has an idea and the capability to get us out of this mess? Because not one of them look like having anything to me.

whelan1

Username John wrote: »

Is it?

As a person who doesnt support any party, am asking what is the difference between them - honestly now.
Who out there is a valid replacement. Will we not just hear the same rhetoric from all of them?

look at the leaders from all the other countries , brian cowen is a disgrace - remember bertie used to spend so much on make up:D - now i know no amount of make up will improve bc looks but surely he could loose a few pound or something . Pat rabbitte never has a hair out of place and enda kenny does alot of cycling .
i know there is not alot of option there to take over but anything would be better that this lot. Imagine taking such a long summer break if your business was going down the swanny , its a joke

reilig

Tora Bora wrote: »

What is done about these clients by FAS?

Do you proactively disqualify them from the dole, and all it's trimmings?

Fas has no control over social welfare payments (and i have less because I am only contracted by Fas to supply a specific service to a specific group of people). I cannot disqualify anyone from the Dole. i can pass on the information to FAS, but I feel its being ignored. The old system used to be able to disqualify people from the dole, now, thanks to a reformed social welfare department, people no longer can have their dole cut if they refuse to take up a job because if they refuse a job, this does not automatically mean that they are not actively looking for work - they can say that they are looking for a better job.