PUBLIC SECTOR WASTERS

nursextreme

In the light of Budget over runs and planned cut it is time to start naming and shaming area of wastage in the public sector and who in the chain of command is responsible for the wastage. No need to literally name individuals but keep the comments clean and based on actual facts not just hearsay.

This is not aimed at being a grudge match between public and private sectors, but to show that frontline workers are really frustrated by wastage that is visible but out of their control, as their jobs and working conditions go down the pan.

PCPhoto

nursextreme wrote: »

In the light of Budget over runs and planned cut it is time to start naming and shaming area of wastage in the public sector and who in the chain of command is responsible for the wastage. No need to literally name individuals but keep the comments clean and based on actual facts not just hearsay.

This is not aimed at being a grudge match between public and private sectors, but to show that frontline workers are really frustrated by wastage that is visible but out of their control, as their jobs and working conditions go down the pan.

the top of the chain is responsible !!!

and everyone underneath.

in the past... the lower minions were never informed of how to save and any errors were unpunished...so mistakes were never rectified and this continued until ....oh wait...its still happening .

Amhran Nua

Given your username, are you referring to the administration layer in the HSE/Health boards primarily?

nursextreme

Too many Deployment and management and clerical staff in the HSE working on Sundays earning premium rates, where they could be doing office work on a weekday.

Padraig Mor

nursextreme wrote: »

This is not aimed at being a grudge match between public and private sectors, but to show that frontline workers are really frustrated by wastage that is visible but out of their control, as their jobs and working conditions go down the pan.

And I suppose there are no wasters in the 'frontline'? :rolleyes:

murphaph

Padraig Mor wrote: »

And I suppose there are no wasters in the 'frontline'? :rolleyes:

There surely are, so let the PS admin staff come on here and tell us about it!

nursextreme

Padraig Mor wrote: »

And I suppose there are no wasters in the 'frontline'? :rolleyes:

No doubt the are but it isnt on such a logarithmic scale.

Do you want to add a fact based example or two? No one is going to berate you.

Padraig Mor

Padraig Mor wrote: »

And I suppose there are no wasters in the 'frontline'? :rolleyes:

Amyone who has been to hospital would be inclined to say no I reckon.

bamboozle

surely when it comes to wasters we cant look much further than than our government, Bertie and goodtime Charlie?

still blaming it all on Lehman's Bertie?

dean21

think you should change it to PRIVATE SECTOR WASTERS ANd FOOLS
50 billion because of scum in the private sector

dean21

murphaph wrote: »

There surely are, so let the PS admin staff come on here and tell us about it!

Today is Thursday so when you go to dole office ask them

Padraig Mor

RoverJames wrote: »

Amyone who has been to hospital would be inclined to say no I reckon.

:):D
I worked in a hospital for nearly ten years and i can tell you there are just as many wasters on the 'frontline' as in the offices. (not saying there are none in admin, mind!).

dean21 wrote: »

think you should change it to PRIVATE SECTOR WASTERS ANd FOOLS
50 billion because of scum in the private sector

So we are in for 50 billion because the private sector are scum? Like my wife who had a low paid job which she was let go from not too long ago? I must ask her where she's hidden all the money!:pac:

ei.sdraob

a public vs. private thread

must be that time of the year again

ill get the popcorn ready :eek:

Padraig Mor

nursextreme wrote: »

No doubt the are but it isnt on such a logarithmic scale.

Do you want to add a fact based example or two? No one is going to berate you.

Two? OK.

1. When about to transport a critical patient from theatre to ICU, I found that the ICU portable oxygen required for the patient was empty. When brought to the attention of the ward sister, I was informed it was not "her job" to arrange replacement of the cylinder, even though she KNEW it was empty (and let me take it without saying a word). It wasn't my job either, but lucky I did check......

2. The nurse I shared an apartment with who openly counted the 9/10 uncertified sick days she could take a year as part of her standard holiday "entitlement". She once took a day off 'sick' because her throat was sore from talking too much. (seriously!).

I can add more if you wish.....

Japer

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Two? OK.

1. When about to transport a critical patient from theatre to ICU, I found that the ICU portable oxygen required for the patient was empty. When brought to the attention of the ward sister, I was informed it was not "her job" to arrange replacement of the cylinder, even though she KNEW it was empty (and let me take it without saying a word). It wasn't my job either, but lucky I did check......

2. The nurse I shared an apartment with who openly counted the 9/10 uncertified sick days she could take a year as part of her standard holiday "entitlement". She once took a day off 'sick' because her throat was sore from talking too much. (seriously!).

I can add more if you wish.....

+1
and the half hour / 40 minute plus tea / coffee / chat breaks my partner used to take, twice a day, along with all colleagues, when she worked in the public service office she used to work in. Our public service...way way too much overpaid and underworked.

kippy

ei.sdraob wrote: »

a public vs. private thread

must be that time of the year again

ill get the popcorn ready :eek:

All year every year for the past two years.
Politicians and those actually responsible for this mess are loving it.

ei.sdraob

kippy wrote: »

All year every year for the past two years.
Politicians and those actually responsible for this mess are loving it.

Yeh tho it was funny seeing David Begg being being booed and jeered as he tried to stir up ****, seems the protesters realise the guy has creamed it in with his 6 figure salary and was asleep while being on the Central Bank board

Zynks

kippy wrote: »

All year every year for the past two years.
Politicians and those actually responsible for this mess are loving it.

....or just observe how this comes in sync with the bad news on the banks. Hopefully people won't be distracted too much this time.

When I heard the news on the radio this morning I knew a thread like this would be started.

nursextreme

ei.sdraob wrote: »

a public vs. private thread

must be that time of the year again

ill get the popcorn ready :eek:

It wasn't meant to be unfortunately!!! These discussions rarely stay on course

Riskymove

nursextreme wrote: »

It wasn't meant to be unfortunately!!! These discussions rarely stay on course

indeed...interestingly it seemed to propose a public service vs public service discussion!!

nursextreme

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Two? OK.

1. When about to transport a critical patient from theatre to ICU, I found that the ICU portable oxygen required for the patient was empty. When brought to the attention of the ward sister, I was informed it was not "her job" to arrange replacement of the cylinder, even though she KNEW it was empty (and let me take it without saying a word). It wasn't my job either, but lucky I did check......

2. The nurse I shared an apartment with who openly counted the 9/10 uncertified sick days she could take a year as part of her standard holiday "entitlement". She once took a day off 'sick' because her throat was sore from talking too much. (seriously!).

I can add more if you wish.....

I agree with both your points, lets call a spade a spade.
No.1 is an example of bad management and there is no room for "that's not my job" when someone's life is at stake, its everyone's job. No.2 The sick leave and absenteeism is ridiculous, its engrained in our society. The IMF will fix that for us.

murphaph

nursextreme wrote: »

I agree with both your points, lets call a spade a spade.
No.1 is an example of bad management and there is no room for "that's not my job" when someone's life is at stake, its everyone's job. No.2 The sick leave and absenteeism is ridiculous, its engrained in our society. The IMF will fix that for us.

It's not ingrained in the companies I worked for in Ireland. You had to produce a cert after 3 days and if you were repeatedly sick then they wanted a cert for even one day. Unsurprisingly absenteesim was low as very few people were prepared to pay a doctor €50 or €60 for a day off cert.

Of course, many companies have no sick pay (it is NOT a legal requirement for a company, regardless of size, to pay people for days spent at home sick) so if you're sick you need to trundle down to the SW office to get something for it. Most people aren't going to put themselves through the hassle just to take a day "sick" so they go to work.

bamboozle

dean21 wrote: »

think you should change it to PRIVATE SECTOR WASTERS ANd FOOLS
50 billion because of scum in the private sector

hmmm lets retrace the mess;
successive FF govts introduce a multitude of measure designed to create a property boom
creation of financial regulator-who promplty fell asleep at his desk for the duration of his post and ignores what the banks are doing
failure of central bank to step in and point out glaring micro and macro issues which were clear to international markets about our countrys financial dependance on property and impending burst of bubble, special mention to Unison leader Begg who was on board of central bank...

i think you'll find lots of highly paid members of various public sector bodies played prominant roles in this 50 billion waste!

5live

The more things change the more they stay the same. Wasteage and entitlement are hardwired into the irish brain at this stage. Until ALL entitlements and other sacred cows are slaughtered we will sink either slowly or quickly. And as a person whose drugs bill for a month averages a minimum of E270 a month (paid for by the state(and i dont waste a bit. I was brought up not to waste)) which i could not afford to pay unless i get it from the state, i still feel it will have to be done out of choice rather than by IMF or other outsiders. My wife is back at work in the public sector after maternity leave and after 2 weeks still has no job desk or computer. It wasnt like it was a surprise that she was coming back to work. The management is paid to manage without the will or ability to do so. There is no solution

Godge

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Two? OK.

1. When about to transport a critical patient from theatre to ICU, I found that the ICU portable oxygen required for the patient was empty. When brought to the attention of the ward sister, I was informed it was not "her job" to arrange replacement of the cylinder, even though she KNEW it was empty (and let me take it without saying a word). It wasn't my job either, but lucky I did check......

2. The nurse I shared an apartment with who openly counted the 9/10 uncertified sick days she could take a year as part of her standard holiday "entitlement". She once took a day off 'sick' because her throat was sore from talking too much. (seriously!).

I can add more if you wish.....

nursextreme wrote: »

I agree with both your points, lets call a spade a spade.
No.1 is an example of bad management and there is no room for "that's not my job" when someone's life is at stake, its everyone's job. No.2 The sick leave and absenteeism is ridiculous, its engrained in our society. The IMF will fix that for us.

This response sums up everything that is wrong in the public sector. The blame is put on "bad management" but that is somebody else, probably the chief executive of the hospital who should be out there telling staff nurses what to do.

Was the person in the example just a basic staff nurse or a senior staff nurse or other supervisor in the ward. If so, they are management.

There is a pervading public service mentality that someone else up above is management when the reality is that anyone holding more than a basic frontline post has management responsibilities and should face up to them. To look at another sector, while over 50% of teachers hold some form of management allowance, the principal is often viewed as the management.

WalterMitty

What about the porters down in cork that had huge rates of sick leave on EVERY monday after Munster were playing rugby matches!
Or the electricians in hospitals that insist that simple bulb replacements are carried out by qualified electrician at exorbitant cost

Managers in public sector should be told, evaluate all staff under your management and sack the lowest 10-20% in terms of performance/skills etc. This is what managers in real world do when faced with a crisis. Some areas like gardai and doctors cant really be cut in numbers but all other areas can and should be pruned. But unions wouldnt allow this most rational of approaches. Roll on the IMF/ECB.

murphaph

murphaph wrote: »

It's not ingrained in the companies I worked for in Ireland. You had to produce a cert after 3 days and if you were repeatedly sick then they wanted a cert for even one day. Unsurprisingly absenteesim was low as very few people were prepared to pay a doctor €50 or €60 for a day off cert.

I currently work in the Public Sector. I get 7, not 9/10 as was earlier mentioned, uncertified sick days a year. If you're out for more than one day, you need a cert. If you get to 6, then they make you produce a cert for every day. If you're out on a Friday, then the weekend counts as days, so you need a cert. Unsurprisingly absenteesim is low as very few people are prepared to pay a doctor €50 or €60 for a day off cert.

murphaph

Deleted User wrote: »

I currently work in the Public Sector. I get 7, not 9/10 as was earlier mentioned, uncertified sick days a year. If you're out for more than one day, you need a cert. If you get to 6, then they make you produce a cert for every day. If you're out on a Friday, then the weekend counts as days, so you need a cert. Unsurprisingly absenteesim is low as very few people are prepared to pay a doctor €50 or €60 for a day off cert.

Good for your department...now to introduce it PS wide!

hinault

My father underwent coronary valve replacement operation recently in Tallaght Hospital.

I spent several weeks going in to visit dad and to bring my mother to Tallaght to visit him.

Naturally over a period of time you get to see the behaviour of the staff at the hospital.
The porters and cleaners appeared to work hard.
The nurses when they weren't standing around chatting at the cummunal areas on the ward, did do some work.
It was noticeable that the (presumably) Irish born nurses were more prone to chatting and gossiping.
The (presumably) Filipino nurses appeared to be more diligent.

As for the doctors?
They were less noticeable I have to say.
There seemed to be few of them about.

Japer

Deleted User wrote: »

I currently work in the Public Sector. I get 7, not 9/10 as was earlier mentioned, uncertified sick days a year.

And many people seem to take these 7 as a sort of holiday entitlement. Then they go to a doc + get their sick cert for a week when they have a sore back, the flue etc. Doctors will extremely seldom refuse to give a sick cert.
Roll on the IMF / ECB, they are the only people to really cut public expenditure, the wages + waste in the public sector, social welfare etc

wellboytoo

Force Majuer alone costs this country millions, a cosy deal Bertie did with the unions in the public sector, where after all the holidays holy days and what not they can take another 10 days leave per annum uncertified, if they need it, and guess what they all need it. laughable

johnboy_123

Sure all the P.S are sitting pretty with their Croke park agreement. So 70% of our Expenditure cannot be touched its a sad time to be irish. Shame on you Cowen.

Riskymove

Japer wrote: »

And many people seem to take these 7 as a sort of holiday entitlement.

and many dont

Riskymove

johnboy_123 wrote: »

Sure all the P.S are sitting pretty with their Croke park agreement. So 70% of our Expenditure cannot be touched its a sad time to be irish. Shame on you Cowen.

CPA is in sever trouble at the moment

I assume you are talking about pay rates....even if the CPA held there are many more ways of reducing the PS pay bill than just core pay

Gone Fishin

dean21 wrote: »

think you should change it to PRIVATE SECTOR WASTERS ANd FOOLS
50 billion because of scum in the private sector

Would you like to back this up with some substance? The blame surely lies squarely at the feet of the Government and the Banking Regulators, we have had two reports that confirm this. "Look the other way" was the name of the game. The vast majority of normal people in the private sector have been hammered in terms of pay and have to work in streamlined and efficient companies, if not your job is gone, its that simple. The problem with the Public Sector is the ingrained Union mentality that prevents dynamic change or adaptability without someone paying for it.

Here's an example. A friend works in a Government department. The department were upgrading all PC's operating system to the latest version, say from Vista to Windows 7. The entire department was down for 2 days whilst training took place and Union involvement meant a payout of almost €300 per person for change of work practices. In the private sector, our company had the same thing. We had no down time and the training was carried out over lunchtime, we had lunch bought for us because we were sacrificing our lunch hour. There is virtually no difference and very little training needed between the two operating systems. If I had asked my boss if I should be compensated because of the change of work practices, I would be on the dole now. I'm not saying every one in the Public Sector is of the same mentality but change is needed so as there is a respectable return for the money spent in it. Michael O'Leary can run a super efficient airline that has grown dramatically over the last number of years. If the Public Sector was run with a Private sector mentality and accountability, I reckon it could be done for 60%-70% of what it costs currently. Plus there would be opportunities for new jobs. Its a mindset change that this country needs and the Unions need to get real.

johnboy_123

Like what Risky maybe benchmark there pay down...Why does benchmarking only work going up...It should work coming down aswell...I mean its a joke and I am sick to death of all the but we took the levy...So what why should I be paying for the public servants pensions?

Count Dooku

kippy wrote: »

All year every year for the past two years.
Politicians and those actually responsible for this mess are loving it.

it will be real nightmare for politicians if public servants will accept next round of cuts on condition that TD's pay will be reduced to CO grade level and all their corrupted friends will be jailed
But I think that FF dogs from TU leaders will try to prevent it and return into usual "private sector must pay more taxes to preserve living standards of public servants"

Scofflaw

dean21 wrote: »

think you should change it to PRIVATE SECTOR WASTERS ANd FOOLS
50 billion because of scum in the private sector

dean21 wrote: »

Today is Thursday so when you go to dole office ask them

dean21 wrote:

Has any other country had a private sector that has done this to there country for pure greed.
We could let 100k go in the public sector which might save 1.5 billion after all costs are taking in to account and it would take over 33 year to save the 50 billion that the private sector have robbed off this state.
And worse we are still waiting for some of them to be put in Jail.

And that, I think, is quite enough from dean21, who has yet to make any positive contribution. Take a week off and think about how you might contribute positively on your return.

moderately,
Scofflaw

jimmycrackcorm

Deleted User wrote: »

I currently work in the Public Sector. I get 7, not 9/10 as was earlier mentioned, uncertified sick days a year. If you're out for more than one day, you need a cert. If you get to 6, then they make you produce a cert for every day. If you're out on a Friday, then the weekend counts as days, so you need a cert. Unsurprisingly absenteesim is low as very few people are prepared to pay a doctor €50 or €60 for a day off cert.

€50 is quite cheap to get a day off though. The problem with specifying it for single days is that people will inevitably take several days off instead of just one if they have to pay.

I worked in a company where the response to sick days was to remove sick pay. that fixed it.

Zardoz

hinault wrote: »

Naturally over a period of time you get to see the behaviour of the staff at the hospital.

A good friend of mine works in a hospital as a male nurse.He is in the job about 15 years and has worked in a number of hospitals.
He said that he notices a dramatic change in female nurses once they become married or enter a long term relationship.
While single ,they seem focused ,honest and hard working .
However once they enter a long term relationship the vast majority of them no longer care about their job as much.
They spend hours every day sitting by or near the phone desk at work,ringing hubby up every 10-20 minutes to check on his day and inquire as to how the kids are getting on .
You are only supposed to make personal calls at work in rare cases but these nurses dont give a damn and are one of the prime reasons the telephone costs of hospitals are exhorbitantly high.
As a result ,my friend has to do more work and attend to patients not assigned to him ,(He works in ICU btw) to cover the laziness of these people.
He is fed up of it at this stage and due to the corrupt structure in the hospital ,a complaint would do him more harm than good.

RichardAnd

johnboy_123 wrote: »

Sure all the P.S are sitting pretty with their Croke park agreement. So 70% of our Expenditure cannot be touched its a sad time to be irish. Shame on you Cowen.

The CPA won't survive until 2014 and indeed, it shouldn't. If we have to have redundancies in the public service, I hope to god that they are done to eliminate wasters and not simply cutting X staff irrespective of performance.

Nasty_Girl

Zardoz wrote: »

He said that he notices a dramatic change in female nurses once they become married or enter a long term relationship.
While single ,they seem focused ,honest and hard working .
However once they enter a long term relationship the vast majority of them no longer care about their job as much.
They spend hours every day sitting by or near the phone desk at work,ringing hubby up every 10-20 minutes to check on his day and inquire as to how the kids are getting on .

Bring back the marriage bar!!

nursextreme

Deleted User wrote: »

I currently work in the Public Sector. I get 7, not 9/10 as was earlier mentioned, uncertified sick days a year. If you're out for more than one day, you need a cert. If you get to 6, then they make you produce a cert for every day. If you're out on a Friday, then the weekend counts as days, so you need a cert. Unsurprisingly absenteesim is low as very few people are prepared to pay a doctor €50 or €60 for a day off cert.

There should be no such thing as uncertified sick days, no one minds genuine or serious illness but, there is a belief out there among some people that you are entitled to so many days off sick and it would be a shame not too use them up.

ardmacha

The vast majority of normal people in the private sector have been hammered in terms of pay

Please provide some evidence of this. Of course certain sectors whose services are no longer in demand have had problems e.g. construction, but other sectors have not.

The recent CSO report on the matter states
Weekly earnings in the private sector fell by 2.8% compared with a fall of 5.5% in the public sector. The Q1 2010 estimates reflects the decreases in public sector pay rates announced in the Budget in December 2009. Earnings in the public sector are, however calculated before deduction of the pension levy that was introduced in March 2009.

and

the largest (pay) increase was recorded in the Professional, scientific and technical sector.(+3.1%)

So many who work in the private Professional, scientific and technical sector have had an increase. Everyone working in professional, scientific and technical roles in the public sector has had a decrease in 2009, probably of the order of 15-20%.

johnboy_123

ardmacha provide evidence ...what about the increase of 3% unemployed to 14% of the pop unemployed from 2007 to 2010 ...not 1 P.S worker has been made redundant...(a few contracters where but thats the nature of contracts) so guess where this 11% of population used to work in (the private sector) or hows about the fact that we have a 20billion deficit..There has been studies and this is due to wage cuts and cuts in hours accross the private sector...So how are those 2 to start with

Gone Fishin

ardmacha wrote: »

Please provide some evidence of this. Of course certain sectors whose services are no longer in demand have had problems e.g. construction

The recent CSO report on the matter states
Weekly earnings in the private sector fell by 2.8% compared with a fall of 5.5% in the public sector. The Q1 2010 estimates reflects the decreases in public sector pay rates announced in the Budget in December 2009. Earnings in the public sector are, however calculated before deduction of the pension levy that was introduced in March 2009.

and

the largest (pay) increase was recorded in the Professional, scientific and technical sector.(+3.1%)

So many who work in the private Professional, scientific and technical sector have had an increase. Everyone working in professional, scientific and technical roles in the public sector has had a decrease in 2009, probably of the order of 15-20%.

I'm not sure what the scope of the CSO report was or who was surveyed, perhaps you can direct us to the report itself. I have not come across any company in the Private Sector who has not had redundancies made to them (with the vast majority getting statutory redundancy, no golden handshakes) and the staff still employed have taken wage cuts. We have taken 20%. There are plenty of companies who have done the same or who have taken reductions in the number of days worked. I have no issue with anyone getting increases in pay provided they are performing and can justify it. You can justify for example the heads of semi state utility companies getting massive salary/bonus packages when the company is loss making. Again, this would just no be accepted in the Private Sector.

ILA

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Two? OK.

1. When about to transport a critical patient from theatre to ICU, I found that the ICU portable oxygen required for the patient was empty. When brought to the attention of the ward sister, I was informed it was not "her job" to arrange replacement of the cylinder, even though she KNEW it was empty (and let me take it without saying a word). It wasn't my job either, but lucky I did check......

I foresee another negligence case coming soon for the HSE

oooomy

divide and rule politics (the worst kind) is working a treat here - everybody fighting with each other and each section being played off with the other. theres no winners in this mess.

Drumpot

If a private sector company is struggling financially, it cant just goto the banks and topping up its loans to sustain its wage structure. No private sector company is able to prop up salaries with loans for sustainable periods.

When being compared with private sector companies, ones that are successful and profitable deserve to reward themselves and should not be compared to non profit making public services.

Its funny when you hear of nurses in the public sector giving out about their pay. I have plenty of clients who are nurses in the private sector who are disgusted at their public servant cousins perceived attack on their livelyhood and would jump over bodies to get a public service position.

Having a job in the public service is not meant to be equivilant to having a job in the private sector. Job security and a golden pension makes up in spades for the reduced income that public servants should get (I say should because the average industrial wage is higher for public servants). In truth they dont value these ridiculously important perks in 2010 Ireland.

Its really people in higher paid positions that are taking the piss and who the government have to tackle. Salaries above €30,000 should be slashed on a scale basis. Cant continue to hide behind contractual obligations or the threat of strikes.

I have personally never earned more then 30k a year (in 10 years of employment in financial services) so I cant comprehend the crys of some when they say thats all they are on ! ! Its a question of perception and entitlement. . Not having the fear of losing their jobs has made them complacent and as arrogant as the government (PS Unions and their followers).

fedor.2.

In before goodwin

johnboy_123

No ooomy its not this...yes we are all fighting ...but you have to look at the alternitives...everyone has been hit in the last couple of budgets and the only people who have an aggreement in place not to be hit again is the P.S which I think is very unfair..

I mean I hear what the P.S are saying that a tax hike hits them aswell and they have less take home pay...But if my company was taking in a 20billion loss every year I would expect to see my pay cut or worse made redundant...And the fact is that the private sector are contributing to the P.S pay and seeing very little for it.

I mean what is my tax going on..

I pay road tax, bin charges, toll bridge money, I pay for visits to GPs, Hositpals, I pay VAT on anything I buy, I pay stamp duty and will probably now be asked to stump up for a property tax

To date the only things I am getting for the 25% of my salary which is taken by the gov monthly is
Water - which is not of drinking quality where I am
Schools - But with books /uniforms etc its not exactly cheap

it looks like water tax is on the way ...so the only free thing I will have is education - Now hows about I just stop paying my tax and I will aggree to send my kids to private school?? I pay for everything else I use

Do you see the imbalance here...

The P.S is in a gold fish bowl all by themselves and what they have to realise is that even do they will be hit with the taxes if there wages where lowered it would allow the already struggling private a bit of brething space as we would not have to pay as much tax.

Having said that I would say that we would probably still pay the same tax if the P.S was cut and the gov would just piss the extra money away.