Racially discriminatory material from the Rotunda

MzFit

Or so it looks to me and my Japanese fiancé. Can this POSSIBLY be legal? Look at this, tell me if you think this smells of foul play?




His first reaction to this, after the jaw hitting the floor, was "Is there one hospital for white, another for black, another for yellow?" (his words, not mine, I would never say "yellow" but he does), quickly followed by "I can't stay in Ireland."

This leaflet offers no reason as to why we are required to list ethnic background, other than it allegedly helps them provide "better" care. I call shenanigans and add a great big Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

Comments?

Nevyn

There are issues with certain genitic conditions which can effect babies which are specific to certain ethnic groups or when two of those groups are mixed, there are also different culture taboos and mores which the hospital has to deal with depending on the different cultures of different ethic groups.

Ireland has undergone a massive amount of immigration over the last 10 year and a huge rise in children being born to non national parent/s and as a result they have been playing catch up with procedures and policies, which would be in place in other countries.

I think you are being over sensitive.

passive

Yeah, they're clearly sending you to the gas chamber... Definitely time to emigrate.

Sardonicat

OP, I think you are over reacting. This kind of information can be very useful in identifying trends across differen ethnic groups; e.g. family size, age of first child, take up of breast feeding. All of this information will help them to plan their services in the future.

If you are still worried about a racist conspiracy take another look at the leaflet. It was designed by Pavee Point, a traveller organisation.

Denerick

No. There is racism in this country but this isn't it.

Chuchoter

Don't call racism about things you don't know about. If you were an Ashkenazi Jew and I were you're doctor you'd really want to tell me, because it means you're predisposed for lots of things. If you were Japanese, you'd be at a greater risk for certain types of spinocerebellar ataxia. Genetics count for everything.

Manach

I prescribe that the OP watch the collective works of "House MD"

Barname

MzFit wrote: »

Or so it looks to me and my Japanese fiancé. Can this POSSIBLY be legal? Look at this, tell me if you think this smells of foul play?




His first reaction to this, after the jaw hitting the floor, was "Is there one hospital for white, another for black, another for yellow?" (his words, not mine, I would never say "yellow" but he does), quickly followed by "I can't stay in Ireland."

This leaflet offers no reason as to why we are required to list ethnic background, other than it allegedly helps them provide "better" care. I call shenanigans and add a great big Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

Comments?

yah well, your OB GYN need to know the size of the fathers penis so they can appropriate the stronger nurses to the heavier expected live weight ...

dont be shocked when a achondroplastic matron attends you

and. lighten up, less stress = healthier baby.

Clemon

PC Nut

MzFit

Forgive me for having a dose of paranoia, then, when we've been spat at with racist comments attached, and my OH has been physically attacked on the street on a number of occasions, with anti-Asian slurs attached, such as the delightfully predictable "penis size" jibe we've just seen here, and feels totally unwelcome in Ireland and looked down on by Europeans.

Note that the leaflet asks nothing about the origin of the father, or what the baby's will be. This was sent to me, addressed to the mother. My ethnic origin will be bloody clear when they see me. The baby's will not, and that's not what they asked in this leaflet. I'm well aware of certain conditions being more predisposed in certain ethnic groups but my god, "Chinese or any other Asian"? "African or any other African"? "Other, including mixed"? How the hell does that help distinguish a disease that an Indian person as opposed to a Korean person might be predisposed to, for the sake of argument? This leaflet has nothing to accurately pinpoint specifics like that, or for that matter, Japanese or Ashkenazi Jews as mentioned above. This asks what colour the mother is, within a set number of choices otherwise you tick the "other" box, and provides no explanation for why. And I'm not blind, I saw the Pavee Point thing and I was doubly surprised.

It hurt me to see the man I love read this and be hurt by it. The motive is certainly not to segregate people, I know that. But the overtone is patronising and we experience real, substantial racism at least once a week so if I am paranoid, well I guess you can slap a great big "guilty as charged" on me then so.

nudist

To be honest i didnt find that leafet from the rotunda hospital be that racist. Its simply written that way to gather statistical information as a earlier poster said. Think of the forms that we had to sign for in the last census in 2006.

Though speaking as someone who is a second generation foreigner in this country-yeh its really racist. I can understand your paranoia OP. Ive been living in the country for the past 25 years (born and bred) but most people still look at me funny when they hear my accent. In my experience its generally the older generation (+70 aprox) and skanger types that are the worst. Paradoxically ive found other foreigners like people from the uk or germany to be more friendlier. Though in fairness if you were to raise a issue of racism in this country you'll probably get a deaf response or the now default 'im not racist but....' .

Just my 2cents.

metrovelvet

I dont see how this information helps them treat you medically. Yes while certain ethinicities pre dispose you to certain conditions, [ie sickle cell anemia] how does this help OB services?

The leaflet does not just ask about race. It asks about religion and culture and I cant see how that has anything to do with your health. [with the exception of calling for a priest or rabbi if you are dying.

I had my son in the most ethnically diverse city in the world and they don't ask you that. WHen the child is born they ask you for this information, but that is for the city statistics office and not for medical reasons.

The Rotunda should not be misleading about why they are asking.

wolfpawnat

OP, I too had my baby in the Rotunda, and to be honest, being Irish is more of a problem in these places these days than being mixed race or otherwise! I was one of 3 Irish women in a ward of 9! And I was there for 6 days!

The hospital wants to know religious, racial and other information solely to know what way to look after mother and child best. If you were an African Jehovahs Witness your medical background and beliefs are different to that of a Catholic Irish woman. These days because Dublin is so racially and culturally diverse they need to look after everyone and I know it seems racist but the only way to not be seen as racist is to ask these sort of questions......which really does boggle the mind

I studied nursing and believe me you spend longer on being PC these days than medical stuff!

I think it is a bit of an over reaction, but if you are unhappy you should voice your opnion and if you are still unhappy perhaps another hospital wouls suit you better. Just, if you are thinking of going to another, choose one soon as they are all very busy these days with the large baby boom we have

And ignore the ignorant racial comments here! The Mods will get to them in a few

kmick

To be fair to the OP that questionnarie is hardly going to give the hospital all that much useful information. Its not exactly racist because it does not pick on any specific group however I think its probably a bit (IM finding it hard to tie down a word here) odd.

looksee

I think its a clumsy and not very useful document. The groupings it offers are very vague. For example I am white English, does that mean I group myself ethnically with Irish or with 'other white' which could be Polish or American or Australian? I would consider myself much closer to Irish than to any of the others.

I suspect it was an exercise in make-work for a minor functionary in the Rotunda. Properly done I could see how it would be useful, and certainly not racist, but at the moment it doesn't prove anything.

While I can empathise with your partner - there are a lot of thick and ignorant people around - it really cannot be taken as anyway specific to him, it happily offends most of the population, one way or another, and you are not obliged to fill it in.

Thoie

"Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence"

Being charitable, this probably started with a conversation in a management meeting at some stage. Someone may have made a throwaway comment such as "We've seen an increase in requests for water births over the last while". Then someone else said "Hey, we've seen a greater variation in ethnicities too". Then genius 3 said "I wonder do different ethnicities prefer different birthing methods". Then, a mere 6 years later, a survey was commissioned. Another 10 years after they've collated the results, they'll come to the conclusion that all pregnant women are 5'8 and would prefer poached eggs to boiled.

metrovelvet

You know....could this have something to do with sensitivities to birthing techniques...and letting women out of the bed to crouch and squat...

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Robxxx7

Don't see it as racist .... but see it as being nosey ...

If i have any particular beliefs i'll let you know, otherwise take it as read i'm the same as the majority in the country

pickarooney

It's far too vague to be of any medical use (there are two classes of white Irish, but one category for the entire continent of Asia outside China ). It's presumably for some other meaningless statistical analysis.

Nevyn

That is the leaflet explaining the forum and that there will be other questions asked,
it is not the forum which women are expected to fill in with the hospital.

Kooli

I don't imagine the question is supposed to have any particular benefit for the individual patient, but I can imagine that the statistics would be useful for the hospital when looking at patient trends as a whole.

If the percentage of, say, Roma or African patients tripled over a number of years, I think it would be handy for the hospital to know that. These patients may have different needs to traditional Irish patients. They also might not, but the numbers need to be monitored before that question can even be investigated.

And I fail to see where the discrimination is in the question, unless you think not everyone is asked? Or unless you think that your treatment changed/would change as a result of your answer?

Chuchoter

MzFit wrote: »

Forgive me for having a dose of paranoia, then, when we've been spat at with racist comments attached, and my OH has been physically attacked on the street on a number of occasions, with anti-Asian slurs attached, such as the delightfully predictable "penis size" jibe we've just seen here, and feels totally unwelcome in Ireland and looked down on by Europeans.

Note that the leaflet asks nothing about the origin of the father, or what the baby's will be. This was sent to me, addressed to the mother. My ethnic origin will be bloody clear when they see me. The baby's will not, and that's not what they asked in this leaflet. I'm well aware of certain conditions being more predisposed in certain ethnic groups but my god, "Chinese or any other Asian"? "African or any other African"? "Other, including mixed"? How the hell does that help distinguish a disease that an Indian person as opposed to a Korean person might be predisposed to, for the sake of argument? This leaflet has nothing to accurately pinpoint specifics like that, or for that matter, Japanese or Ashkenazi Jews as mentioned above. This asks what colour the mother is, within a set number of choices otherwise you tick the "other" box, and provides no explanation for why. And I'm not blind, I saw the Pavee Point thing and I was doubly surprised.

It hurt me to see the man I love read this and be hurt by it. The motive is certainly not to segregate people, I know that. But the overtone is patronising and we experience real, substantial racism at least once a week so if I am paranoid, well I guess you can slap a great big "guilty as charged" on me then so.

Actually you're very right now that you point it out, China doesn't make up the whole of Asia (hell, there are upwards of 20 ethnic minorities in China alone or something). Sorry for being so sarcastic to the OP, I was being a bit of an idiot.

johnnyskeleton

nudist wrote: »

I can understand your paranoia OP. Ive been living in the country for the past 25 years (born and bred) but most people still look at me funny

Were you wearing pants at the time, nudist?

While I find many Irish people totally blind to the blatant racism that any non-white person faces on a regular basis, this isn't racism. There's a good reason to ask questions like this. Some conditions are more common for certain ethnic groups, for example. Also, there are a lot of cultural issues to be dealt with, so the questions about religion etc are pretty relevant. The way it's worded is quite condescending but that's about it. And I agree that lumping South Asians with the likes of Koreans is ridiculous but people are thick. I don't think there was malice behind it, just ignorance. As usual.

caseyann

Its all about Dna and genetics that is all.
They have one gene not common to any one elses origins and specifically easier to scan for diseases etc.. that are less than or more than in their genetic make up.Afaik
Nothing ignorant racist or other in there.

donaghs

Interesting Pavee Point put Travellers under the "White" category. There was a representative of them on the Late Late show within the last year or two, and he was saying that he wasn't White (although he looked it). He was saying he was part of a different race, and was also trying to make the point that he was spiritually black as he wasn't accepted by "White Irish" society.

Personally I think he had too much time on his hands to be categorising and re-categorising himself and everyone else.

Emme

I don't think it's racist. Some ethnic groups are more susceptible to certain diseases than others and in this case it's beneficial to know the ethnic group of a patient or parent of an unborn child. I would think the question is for the good of the unborn child and the parents.

Also people of all ethnic origins in one country may have different immunity to people of all ethnic origins in another because of the strains of bacteria or viruses prevalent in their home countries.

angelfire9

I know when I had my first antenatal appointment with the midwives from St. Munchins in Limerick I was asked to state my ethnicity (?sp) and that of the baby's father
Its the same as asking about medical history its to help them to prepare for any complications that might appear with the baby

looksee

Asking about your actual ethnicity when you go for an antenatal appoihntment makes much more sense than the vague, hit and miss form, and statistics could be gathered from that.

tommomc

It's a valid questionnaire. As for the racial aspect of it, and i don't wish to come across as on the offensive, you must have some idea of how it'd be if the tables were turned and you were in Japan? It'd be a whole lot of "dame dame gaijin san".
Anytime I've been through Narita in the past few years I've been stopped by the police on the look out for terrorists (despite the only terrorist threat there being domestic); when questioned why they were stopping me - is it because I'm a honky? - I got the answer "Yes, they're under orders to stop all foreigners". All foreigners are finger printed too. You must know about foreigners being denied access to restaurants, onsens etc. in Japan? Check out debito.org for real racially discriminatory stories.
The Rotunda questionnaire, perfectly acceptable. A nation that exercises whole-scale institutional racism, questionable.

cynder

I was asked if i was a member of the TC in limerick and i said no, next question was the father of the baby my cousin, i said no.

These questions are asked so that the mother and baby get the right treatment and examinations for birth defects.

Its been known for Romanian guys to have sex with their wives as soon as they leave hospital, knowing that they are Romanian the hospital can tell the fella to lay off his wife for the next 4-5 weeks otherwise she could get an infection or serious injuries from having sex too soon.

Africans are more likely to have HIV or AIDS than an Irish person, even though everyone is offered an hiv/hep b and other tests when they go for their first exam at the antenatal clinic. They might even offer to run a few other blood test for non-European mothers.

Chill out.


Congrats and hope all goes well.

metrovelvet

grindelwald wrote: »

I was asked if i was a member of the TC in limerick and i said no, next question was the father of the baby my cousin, i said no.

These questions are asked so that the mother and baby get the right treatment and examinations for birth defects.

Its been known for Romanian guys to have sex with their wives as soon as they leave hospital, knowing that they are Romanian the hospital can tell the fella to lay off his wife for the next 4-5 weeks otherwise she could get an infection or serious injuries from having sex too soon.

Africans are more likely to have HIV or AIDS than an Irish person, even though everyone is offered an hiv/hep b and other tests when they go for their first exam at the antenatal clinic. They might even offer to run a few other blood test for non-European mothers.

Chill out.


Congrats and hope all goes well.

This is nonsense.

They give out the same information to everyone after the birth in relation to sex. They cant assume because you are white that you know about this stuff.

They asked if your husband was your cousin? FFS you could be lying. They should take a blood test anyway. The same reason they dont ask your blood type, you could be wrong or mistaken and they test you anyway.

Africans being more or less likely has nothing to do with it. More or less likely is part of medical standards. They don't "offer" HIV tests. They are required for EVERYONE.

This questionaire has nothing to do with medical treatment. Its statistics.

cynder

metrovelvet wrote: »

This is nonsense.

They give out the same information to everyone after the birth in relation to sex. They cant assume because you are white that you know about this stuff.

They asked if your husband was your cousin? FFS you could be lying. They should take a blood test anyway. The same reason they dont ask your blood type, you could be wrong or mistaken and they test you anyway.

Africans being more or less likely has nothing to do with it. More or less likely is part of medical standards. They don't "offer" HIV tests. They are required for EVERYONE.

.

By the way i was offered HIV and hep b test it was not required i had to sign a consent form for them to test me for HIV and HEP B, so IT IS OFFERED, NOT REQUIRED (for me the white person). (hep c was on the list and they said they did not need to do that, i cant remember the other one on the list but that wasnt offered or blood taken for it either), Also my blood type wasn't taken until i was 36 weeks gone so they could order in suitable blood.
http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/ma?f=102255733.html
incase you dont beleive me!!!

http://www.hpsc.ie/hpsc/A-Z/HepatitisHIVAIDSandSTIs/HIVandAIDS/AntenatalHIVTesting/Publications/File,2612,en.pdf
See im not wrong!!!!!!!


I asked why was they asking if my husband was my cousin and they said they had to ask everyone, so as not too discriminate against travellers.

Myself or my husband have never been told when we could or could not have sex after i had each of my 3 babies. Perhaps again its because im white Irish, English.


Also the romanian killed his wife by forcing her to have sex as soon as she got home form the hospital, cause an air bubble up her womb and she had a massive bleed and died. so tell the poor dead woman im talking nonsense.

metrovelvet

grindelwald wrote: »

By the way i was offered HIV and hep b test it was not required i had to sign a consent form for them to test me for HIV and HEP B, so IT IS OFFERED, NOT REQUIRED (for me the white person). (hep c was on the list and they said they did not need to do that, i cant remember the other one on the list but that wasnt offered or blood taken for it either), Also my blood type wasn't taken until i was 36 weeks gone so they could order in suitable blood.
http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/ma?f=102255733.html
incase you dont beleive me!!!

http://www.hpsc.ie/hpsc/A-Z/HepatitisHIVAIDSandSTIs/HIVandAIDS/AntenatalHIVTesting/Publications/File,2612,en.pdf
See im not wrong!!!!!!!


I asked why was they asking if my husband was my cousin and they said they had to ask everyone, so as not too discriminate against travellers.

Myself or my husband have never been told when we could or could not have sex after i had each of my 3 babies. Perhaps again its because im white Irish, English.


Also the romanian killed his wife by forcing her to have sex as soon as she got home form the hospital, cause an air bubble up her womb and she had a massive bleed and died. so tell the poor dead woman im talking nonsense.

If they only require AFricans to take HIV tests than that is racial discrimination. White people get HIV too.

{Most of my pregnancy care was in the US and it is required by law that I got two HIV tests during the course of the pregnancy and my son had to have one when he was born too.]

If they only lecture Romanians on sex after pregnancy, than that is racial discrimination.

So if this is the carry on in the Rotunda it is not only racially discriminatory but medically negligent.

apsalar

Grindewald......I fond some of the points you have raised really disturbing and this is not to say that what you have said is untrue.

Were you REALLY asked if your husband was yopur cousin? The mind boggles!:eek: Wow! I hope you grilled them as to the reasoning behind such a question and whether ALL mothers are asked this.

Horrible story of the Roma woman dying. I agree that a knowledge of ccertain sexual practices in some communities is beneficial for post-natal care. I admit to being a little lost as to how to gain such information without offending the target community.

I have had one child in Ireland and so far as I remember there was nothing asked that wouldn't be asked anywhere else in the world. I did take an HIV test but am aware that that is common practice in most maternity hospitals worldwide, including a number of other tests such as Hep A/B etc...

I personally see no need for the pamphlet. These questions should be put towards you when you register with the hospital to deliver you child. That way if you have any questions you can ask them of the nurse/ whoever.

cynder

apsalar wrote: »

Grindewald......I fond some of the points you have raised really disturbing and this is not to say that what you have said is untrue.

Were you REALLY asked if your husband was yopur cousin? The mind boggles!:eek: Wow! I hope you grilled them as to the reasoning behind such a question and whether ALL mothers are asked this.

I personally see no need for the pamphlet. These questions should be put towards you when you register with the hospital to deliver you child. That way if you have any questions you can ask them of the nurse/ whoever.

Yep i was asked if he was my cousin (seems to be common practise in the TC) I'm not in the TC and never will be but they had to ask the question, they said they asked everyone. I Agree these questions should be common practise when a mother to be registers at the hospital. The more info they have the better care that can be given.

To me not to tell women/men of certain cultures that sex too soon after giving birth can cause death is medical negligence when they know in that culture men will demand sex whenever they want and she cant say no. (its now classed as rape in Ireland/England but not in many of their countries so they don't recognise it as rape but as their god given right). *just to say this happened in the UK and not Ireland and its the UK hospitals that mention it not Irish hospitals.



*Ive only ever attended the limerick maternity hospital x 3 times.

Just to add if you check the HIV statistics of those found with HIV while pregnant over 80% were African, i think between 2% and 5% were Irish and the remainder were other nationalities. This was from approx 2 years ago. I think its a great idea to check for HIV, HEP A/B/C in all pregnant women. But in ireland and the uk its not required and a pregnant woman can only be tested if she signs the consent form.

Trog

MzFit wrote: »

Or so it looks to me and my Japanese fiancé. Can this POSSIBLY be legal? Look at this, tell me if you think this smells of foul play?

Completely unreasonable: They don't want the information to distinguish medical factors to do with genetics, they want it for PATIENT PROFILING PURPOSES. It's not combined with other personal information, so can be of no help to an individual patient. If they were concerned about genetics, they would ask the mother on her first appointment.

I can totally understand you being offended by being asked, but at least it isn't mandatory. I don't mean to be insensitive here, but you can complain and get stressed, or just throw it out. That's your call. Personally, as long as nobody's being forced to give this information, I'd forget about it. People are insensitive all the time.
In my opinion, it's not worth kicking up a fuss, because that just raises the profile of the issue, and adds fuel to the 'PC has gone too far and there's no such thing as racism anymore' fire. I'd prefer to pin my flag to a bigger, more clear-cut instance of discrimination.

Interesting to see how many people have different views on it though.

Dades

Trog wrote: »

Completely unreasonable: They don't want the information to distinguish medical factors to do with genetics, they want it for PATIENT PROFILING PURPOSES.

Why shouldn't they profile their patients? It's not as is they claim to be doing this for purely medical reasons.

It's in the interest of any business to know the demograph of their 'customer base'.
And nothing here indicates the stats will result in anyone being discriminated against.

Trog

It was claimed above by several posters that the information is needed for medical reasons, I was just trying to point out that this is not the case.

That's fair, it is in the interest of a business to know its demographic, but I still think it's an unreasonable question to ask. I agree that nothing indicates any discrimination, too, which is why I advised the OP that there are bigger fish to fry so to speak.

As long as it isn't mandatory, it isn't exactly an outrage, but I still feel it's an unfair question to ask of patients. It draws attention to a distinction that ultimately people shouldn't pay attention to. Not discrimination, but still not nice.

Dades

Trog wrote: »

It was claimed above by several posters that the information is needed for medical reasons, I was just trying to point out that this is not the case.

I saw that, though what posters here perceive the case to be doesn't invoke a claim on behalf of the Rotunda.

Trog wrote: »

I still feel it's an unfair question to ask of patients. It draws attention to a distinction that ultimately people shouldn't pay attention to. Not discrimination, but still not nice.

I don't why it's unfair. Hospitals ask you the most invasive questions you'll ever have to answer, I don't see how answering a (non-mandatory) question about your ethnic background is the only one that warrants complaint.

I guess the issue some people have is that because they have been subject to harassment/discrimination they are concerned that anything that shines a light on it, so to speak, is unwelcome. They don't have to answer the question, if they don't feel like it, but I think it's unreasonable to hold it against the hospital because they are acting in a practical manner when it comes to planning it's services.

Regarding the actual material in question, I would have thought the fact that it's rather amateur in it's composition lends an aura of innocence to it. If it had been a concise document with thoroughly researched options that attempted to fit every possible contingent (though we all know that is an impossibility) I would be more likely to view it with distrust.

Trog

Dades wrote: »

I don't why it's unfair. Hospitals ask you the most invasive questions you'll ever have to answer, I don't see how answering a (non-mandatory) question about your ethnic background is the only one that warrants complaint.

I guess the issue some people have is that because they have been subject to harassment/discrimination they are concerned that anything that shines a light on it, so to speak, is unwelcome. They don't have to answer the question, if they don't feel like it, but I think it's unreasonable to hold it against the hospital because they are acting in a practical manner when it comes to planning it's services.

Regarding the actual material in question, I would have thought the fact that it's rather amateur in it's composition lends an aura of innocence to it. If it had been a concise document with thoroughly researched options that attempted to fit every possible contingent (though we all know that is an impossibility) I would be more likely to view it with distrust.

Well, I don't think it does warrant complaint solely because it is optional.

Yes, lots of personal questions are asked in hospital, but they are asked by doctors who can be implicitly trusted as professionals to be sensitive about personal information. The reason it is a different story here is that when a doctor asks you a personal question, it is only for your own good, to aid with diagnosis.

Perhaps unfair is the wrong word to use, but in my opinion as a society we should aim to draw as little attention as possible (whether positive or negative) to trivial differences in things like culture, race or sex. By highlighting difference, we de-normalise it. (I have used the word 'trivial' here, as there are instances when attention needs to be drawn to these issues, like racist attacks etc., but these are necessary and reducing in number)

I agree that a lot of the time people who have been subject to discrimination can be over-sensitive (I call to mind a thread that was closed yesterday where a girl said white men hate her because they don't talk to her), but I still think that most people fail to realize that highlighting differences for arbitrary reasons can do more harm than good.

Dades

I agree that drawing unnecessary attention to people differences is something we should avoid. To that end I don't envisage the result of the patient survey is going to end up with segregated wards or any such outward repercussions. The answers just turn into numbers that ultimately reflect (or not) the reality of the demograph.

Many people wear their cultures on their sleeves and have no issue with proclaiming who they are. Many don't, and have every right in this instance to ignore the question in point.


Your post reminds me of TV debate I watched on segregating kids for religious education. A priest on the panel responded to an audience member who voiced an objection to treating kids differently by saying they are different. It made me sad and mad at the same time as a surefire way to make kids see each other as different is to have adults tell them they are.
</ot>

Elle Collins

For the love of God. A hospital wants to profile its patients. And the big deal is... what exactly?

Elle Collins

MzFit wrote: »

His first reaction to this, after the jaw hitting the floor, was "Is there one hospital for white, another for black, another for yellow?" (his words, not mine, I would never say "yellow" but he does), quickly followed by "I can't stay in Ireland."

There was nothing in that leaflet to give your husband or anyone else the impression that people would be racially segregated in the hospital. While I sympathise with anyone who has been racially abused, his response to the leaflet was uncalled for and ridiculous.

Mike 1972

Questions regarding race/ethnicity/religion on forms are a pet hate of mine. I always refuse to answer them (or give a completly vauge/meaningless answer) even on the census (Dont bother pointing out the legality or otherwise of this because I dont give a friar tuck).

A friend of mine from Turkey had a baby (in RVH Belfast) and got one of these forms in the post a few weeks later and went into a (not entirely unjustified) rant about how racist it was and it was a stupid question ("Do I tick White or Asian").

Eventually she took my advice and chucked it in the bin

Cicero

MzFit wrote: »

This leaflet offers no reason as to why we are required to list ethnic background, other than it allegedly helps them provide "better" care. I call shenanigans and add a great big Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

Comments?

.....you are not "required" to answer this question...it states very clearly on the form that nothing will happen if you don't answer the question- it's simply to gather statistics that may help in a wide range of research....

Mike 1972

Cicero wrote: »

.....you are not "required" to answer this question...it states very clearly on the form that nothing will happen if you don't answer the question

Fair enough but this is not always made clear.

Of course some might still take offence at the question -particularly at the rather clumsy classification of racial groupings in the options on the form

Black or Black Irish
African
Any other African background

Theyre pretty vauge on exactly why they want the information as well.

Cicero

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Fair enough but this is not always made clear.

Of course some might still take offence at the question -particularly at the rather clumsy classification of racial groupings in the options on the form



Theyre pretty vauge on exactly why they want the information as well.

...totally agree...the wording is, as you say..."clumsy" to say the least...you either word these questions properly, or don't ask them at all..

Jesus Wept

Trog wrote: »

Completely unreasonable: They don't want the information to distinguish medical factors to do with genetics, they want it for PATIENT PROFILING PURPOSES.

What is the problem for them knowing the demographics of the people that come to them? How is that racist?

Are you presuming that based on their answer, they will get different treatment? Because I'm not.

Trog wrote: »

I can totally understand you being offended by being asked

I don't.
If I met you in a social situation, I'd probably ask where you were from (if it were not clear to me).
Is that racist? Is it shameful to be one ethnic group over another?
I don't get it.

Where is the racism coming into play? Where is the discrimination?

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donaghs wrote: »

Interesting Pavee Point put Travellers under the "White" category. There was a representative of them on the Late Late show within the last year or two, and he was saying that he wasn't White (although he looked it). He was saying he was part of a different race, and was also trying to make the point that he was spiritually black as he wasn't accepted by "White Irish" society.

Personally I think he had too much time on his hands to be categorising and re-categorising himself and everyone else.

"Author: CUH and the Rotunda Hospital Divesity Committee"
"Design: Pavee Point"

Hmmmm. I'd be interested to know how this leaflet came about. It does seem a bit odd that Travellers are given their own box to tick, yet Asia is divided into "Chinese" or "other". I wouldn't be terribly suprised if there was some political agenda, specifically that of a travellers' rights group behind this from the word go, with the objective being moving towards recognising travellers as an ethnic group, and not much thought put into it beyond that. (I don't have strong feelings either way about travellers being identified as an ethnic group btw, I think they are widely discriminated against but also that there's serious problems with their culture that need to be addressed before that problem will go away).

I don't think it was intended to be offensive, and I do think the OP overreacted a bit, but it's still poor form really. At the very least it needs to be worded better, and the reasons behind it explained better. The vagueness of the categories does kind of seem to rule out any genetics/cultural sensitivity issues. And jebus "African OR any other African background"? Maybe they're secretly trying to make black people so confused they never make it to the hospital.