Alfa 159 Pricing

mickdw

Modnote: Posts moved from this thread to keep it on topic: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056042026


Looking at alfa price list, there would want to be discounts across the board. 159 starting at 31,500. Thats madness

-Chris-

mickdw wrote: »

Looking at alfa price list, there would want to be discounts across the board. 159 starting at 31,500. Thats madness

The 159 needs to be starting at €26k-ish imho.

mickdw

-Chris- wrote: »

The 159 needs to be starting at €26k-ish imho.

Ya I would have thought so too

Tea 1000

Not sure why Alfa would need to price their 159 10 grand less than an A4 for example?

-Chris-

It needs to be within a few grand of a Mondeo or similar. The 159 isn't a competitor for an A4, 3 Series or C Class.

The 156 came out in 98/99, the 159 is very similar to the 156. That makes it an 11 year+ design.
You're not going to pay a premium for that.

Tragedy

The A4 isn't a competitor for a 3 series or C class, despite all protestations to the contrary.
The 159 definitely isn't a competitor to a Mondeo. It's in the same limbo as Saab and Volvo's have always been in.

Also, the 159 has nothing in common with the 156, what the hell nonsense are you basing that on?

-Chris-

Tragedy wrote: »

The A4 isn't a competitor for a 3 series or C class, despite all protestations to the contrary.

Let's not get into that debate - we'll drag the thread off topic...

Tragedy wrote: »

The 159 definitely isn't a competitor to a Mondeo. It's in the same limbo as Saab and Volvo's have always been in.

The Saab 9-3 and Volvo S40 are in the same boat - they're 10 year old designs that have tanked in terms of market share.

If I were promoting or pricing it, I'd be positioning it as a fancy family saloon (i.e. a little more expensive than a Mondeo or its ilk) rather than in the same category as the S40/9-3 (dead ducks) or in the "executive" category.

Tragedy wrote: »

Also, the 159 has nothing in common with the 156, what the hell nonsense are you basing that on?

It's visually very similar to the 156 from both interior and exterior. To the public perception it's very much the same car.

Tragedy

-Chris- wrote: »

The Saab 9-3 and Volvo S40 are in the same boat - they're 10 year old designs that have tanked in terms of market share.

The s40 is a 6 year old design, not 10?

If I were promoting or pricing it, I'd be positioning it as a fancy family saloon (i.e. a little more expensive than a Mondeo or its ilk) rather than in the same category as the S40/9-3 (dead ducks) or in the "executive" category.

I would have said 159, 9-5, S60/V70 actually, s40/9-3 are quite small.
They don't have their own category, they're just in an unfortunate no-mans land between premium and bland salesrepmobile. Not much different than the old Accord or Legacy to be honest.

It's visually very similar to the 156 from both interior and exterior. To the public perception it's very much the same car.

We're not talking about public perception(and seriously, how many people on boards have admired the 159?) which is debateable, we're talking about you calling it an 11 year old design.

It isn't, it's a 5 year old design that has alfa styling cues(v shaped front grill, centre console dials).

Your Audi is as guilty as Alfa, or any carmaker for using a corporate grill and keeping interiors fairly samey.

-Chris-

Tragedy wrote: »

The s40 is a 6 year old design, not 10?

And the 9-3 is 8 years old, give or take. Both models are too long in the tooth and their sales suffered as a consequence.
I consider the 159 in the same boat.

Tragedy wrote: »

I would have said 159, 9-5, S60/V70 actually, s40/9-3 are quite small.
They don't have their own category, they're just in an unfortunate no-mans land between premium and bland salesrepmobile. Not much different than the old Accord or Legacy to be honest.

Is the 159 really that much bigger than a 9-3? Is size the USP? It's certainly not in the same size category as the S60 or 9-5 imho.

So what you're saying is there's
Rep mobile (Mondeo)
No man's land (9-3, S40, Accord, Legacy)
The 159 category (any competitors?)
Executive cars (BMW, Merc, possibly Audi depending on your perspective)

Tragedy wrote: »

We're not talking about public perception(and seriously, how many people on boards have admired the 159?) which is debateable, we're talking about you calling it an 11 year old design.

OK, I'm saying that I believe most people see it as an extension of the 156 which was launched 11 years ago or so. It's not differentiated properly. It's very similar inside and out (although the underpinnings and mechanics may be newer).


Why aren't we talking about public perception? If the public perceived the current price and value offering of the 159 to be good, they'd be selling.

They're not. That's about all you can say about it.
You need to drop the price or improve the car.

Tragedy wrote: »

It isn't, it's a 5 year old design that has alfa styling cues(v shaped front grill, centre console dials).

Again, perception is reality, even 5 years old is to old without a brand new model on the horizon.
The 159 comes across as a 156 facelift rather than a new model.

Tragedy wrote: »

Your Audi is as guilty as Alfa, or any carmaker for using a corporate grill and keeping interiors fairly samey.

Every manufacturer keeps their cars for around 7 years with a facelift at 3.5 years, except for a few specific (and generally low volume) exceptions. It makes sense. The proper new model needs to be substantially different to the last model.
That's why I hope for success for the Giulietta, whereas I believe there needs to be a realignment of prices for the 159.

VolvoMan

-Chris- wrote: »

And the 9-3 is 8 years old, give or take. Both models are too long in the tooth and their sales suffered as a consequence.
I consider the 159 in the same boat.

Every car comes to the end of its shelf life sometime, no need to slate it for that fact.

It's certainly not in the same size category as the S60 or 9-5 imho.

The S60 isn't in the same class as the 9-5.

So what you're saying is there's
Rep mobile (Mondeo)
No man's land (9-3, S40, Accord, Legacy)
The 159 category (any competitors?)
Executive cars (BMW, Merc, possibly Audi depending on your perspective)

Why is there a need to categorise each mid-size/family car in terms of image? People should be able to drive what ever car they like and not give a damn about such pretentious bullsh1t.

-Chris-

VolvoMan wrote: »

Every car comes to the end of its shelf life sometime, no need to slate it for that fact.

Absolutely, and this discussion didn't start with me slating anything, just making the comment that the 159 needs a reduction in price.

VolvoMan wrote: »

The S60 isn't in the same class as the 9-5.

OK

VolvoMan wrote: »

Why is there a need to categorise each mid-size/family car in terms of image? People should be able to drive what ever car they like and not give a damn about such pretentious bullsh1t.

People should be able to drive what ever they want, but denying that brand image exists or that it's "pretentious bullsh1t" isn't being realistic.

Anyway, we're probably off-topic at this stage, so apologies to Motorcheck. Maybe we can agree to disagree or take it to a different thread.

mickdw

Hope I didnt start that 159 argument with my comments on high alfa prices!

Kopy

I really like the Alfa 159 Jtdm for its looks and performance !

Tragedy

No point quoting your post Chris, but again, to come back to it yet again(because you still refuse to admit): you posted

That makes it an 11 year+ design.

Thats utter tosh, backed up by no actual evidence or facts. That's your personal bias for whatever reason rearing it's head.

The 159 is a 5 year old modern design, and we can't talk about public perceptions because I really don't think the public has a perception of Alfas over here(and if they do, how do we know it?). Like saying the public perception of Mazda is changing - what public perception?

You also still keeping saying the 159 is basically the same interior and exterior as the 156 without actually saying how it is.
To the vast majority of people, this is a 156.
This is a 159.

This is a 156's interior.
This is a 159's.

If you're arguing that people in general look at both and see the same thing, well.. Wow.

VolvoMan

Tragedy wrote: »

Thats utter tosh, backed up by no actual evidence or facts. That's your personal bias for whatever reason rearing it's head.

You're wasting your breath, man. Chris, with most of the general Irish public, is of the opinion that if it's not Audi (or pretty much anything German) then it won't do.

Tea 1000

-Chris- wrote: »

It needs to be within a few grand of a Mondeo or similar. The 159 isn't a competitor for an A4, 3 Series or C Class.

The 156 came out in 98/99, the 159 is very similar to the 156. That makes it an 11 year+ design.
You're not going to pay a premium for that.

Couldn't agree with you less Chris. The A4 is around since 1995, and todays one isn't exactly break-through design compared to the original, despite a few half-assed revisions along the way.
The 156 was a break-through design in it's day, and still looks reasonably good today, although it is dated a bit. But the 159 is very different, and is only around since 2006. You wouldn't get anything only a bog basic Mondeo for 26k, anything around the 140-ish bhp diesel in a Mondeo is pushing 30k, so therefore a 159 150bhp diesel at 32k would be a fair price I would say.
I think they are closer to 35k, but 26k is just nonsense talk to be honest for a car like the 159.
I agree on the Saab 9-3 though, that is dated, and the S40 looks and feels too much like a high end Focus saloon than a car in the class up from it.

Tea 1000

-Chris- wrote: »

Again, perception is reality, even 5 years old is to old without a brand new model on the horizon.
The 159 comes across as a 156 facelift rather than a new model.

In fairness Chris, I think of all other points you have, which might be fair enough, this one is your weakest.
You're the only person I've ever heard that thinks the 159 looks like just a facelift. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that if I went around the office here to the non-car nuts and showed them a pic of a 156 and 159, and also a pic of a late 90's A4 and present A4, I'd be willing to bet that they'd be quicker to say the A4 is practically the same car than the Alfa's.
And the 159 as I pointed out went on sale in January 2006, which was an all new model over the 156, and there is a replacement on the horizon of another all-new model again for 2012. This new one will be all-new and will be along the lines of the Guiletta, so hopefully it'll be as good to drive as it's bound to be to look at.
Then it really will place itself firmly into the junior exec class.

-Chris-

-Chris- wrote: »

Anyway, we're probably off-topic at this stage, so apologies to Motorcheck. Maybe we can agree to disagree or take it to a different thread.

Because this conversation has continued, I've split it off to this thread so as to keep Motorcheck's thread on-topic.

Drummerboy08

Lads, ye are all mental if you think a 159 is worth 32k.

You could have an Insignia SE 160bhp, Volvo S60 D3 SE, Skoda Superb 170bhp Elegance and a raft of other cars over the Alfa, drive it for 3 years and save yourself a fortune when it comes to resale.

I also tend to agree that it looks too much like the 156. I know of some people who think it is a 156.

The 159 needs to be competing with the familar faces of rep-mobile land - the Mondeo, Passat, Insignia etc etc etc. I know plenty of guys on a Mondeo budget would love to drive a 159, but I don't know of many who are on an A4 budget who would want one.

-Chris-

Tragedy wrote: »

No point quoting your post Chris, but again, to come back to it yet again(because you still refuse to admit): you posted

Thats utter tosh, backed up by no actual evidence or facts. That's your personal bias for whatever reason rearing it's head.

OK, can I interject at this point and say that everything I say is imho, as it is with every poster's opinion.

What evidence can be given that I feel that public perception is that a design is old?

Tragedy wrote: »

The 159 is a 5 year old modern design, and we can't talk about public perceptions because I really don't think the public has a perception of Alfas over here(and if they do, how do we know it?). Like saying the public perception of Mazda is changing - what public perception?

I believe the public perception of Alfa is negative (for some reason) and I support that belief by the fact that their market share is low.
I believe a price change would correct that perception, as well as some form of campaign that addressed the reliability perception of the brand.

Tragedy wrote: »

You also still keeping saying the 159 is basically the same interior and exterior as the 156 without actually saying how it is.
To the vast majority of people, this is a 156.
This is a 159.

This is a 156's interior.
This is a 159's.

I look at those two cars and see a very similar car. Especially the interior. That's my perception.

The 156 was cutting edge design when it came out, and no other mid-size saloon can match it, but I don't believe the 159 is differentiated enough from it.

Tragedy wrote: »

If you're arguing that people in general look at both and see the same thing, well.. Wow.

Can you give me another reason why the Alfa 159 sales figures are where they currently are?

-Chris-

VolvoMan wrote: »

You're wasting your breath, man. Chris, with most of the general Irish public, is of the opinion that if it's not Audi (or pretty much anything German) then it won't do.

I like the current range of Audis. I think the A6 is long in the tooth and is massively outclassed by the new 5 Series.
Lexus are more reliable and refined.
Any Merc below the S-Class isn't to my taste.
The spec of a Honda Accord KILLS a 3 Series, A4 or C Class from a spec/cost perspective.

I've no issue with admitting any of those facts, but I like Audis. Why is that such an issue for you?

You followed me around the forums a few months ago accusing me of being an Audi fanboy and questioning my posts. I tried to resolve it through PMs but you wouldn't turn yours on. I hope you aren't starting this again.
Please stop making it personal.

mickdw

While obviously a new design, the 159 is hardly cutting edge and in my opinion wouldnt command any premium over mondeo passat etc even if it is targeting a different market

-Chris-

LIGHTNING wrote: »

A car sales figures doesnt reflect the cars quality. Renaults are selling in big numbers due to the big discounts and scrappage schemes.

Sales figures aren't an indication of quality, but they are an indication of whether the public considers it value.

Renault are making big sales by offering discounts - that basically proves my point!

My contention is that Alfa need to drop the price of the 159 if they want to increase their market share. If people considered them value at the current price they'd be selling more cars.

There are lots of things that people take into account when they buy a car - reliability, price, brand image, second hand values, spec, quality, dealer experience etc.
I believe Alfa need to address several of these issues with the 159 in order to sell more and curate the model/brand.

VolvoMan

I've no issue with admitting any of those facts, but I like Audis. Why is that such an issue for you?

Because I think they are a brand of marketing rather than cars. They have sort of become a car brand for the Apple generation.

You followed me around the forums a few months ago accusing me of being an Audi fanboy and questioning my posts. I tried to resolve it through PMs but you wouldn't turn yours on. I hope you aren't starting this again.
Please stop making it personal.

I wasn't making it personal. I compared you to the rest of the Irish public so it's hardly just you I'm aiming my criticism at. By no means do I want to turn this into an argument.

I just get the feeling that you're a casual car admirer, rather than full blown enthusiast; the sort of people who drive Audis. That's not to say it is to be held against you.

Drummerboy08

VolvoMan wrote: »

Because I think they are a brand of marketing rather than cars. They have become the car brand for the Apple generation.



I wasn't making it personal. I compared you to the rest of the Irish public so it's hardly just you I'm aiming my criticism at. By no means do I want to turn this into an argument.

I just get the feeling that you're a casual car admirer, rather than full blown enthusiast; the sort of people who drive Audis. That's not to say it is to be held against you.

I don't really understand what this has to do with Alfa's pricing. Fair enough if you don't like Audi's (even if they are a quality machine ) but why turn every arguement into a "I hate Audi" argument?

-Chris-

Just to put some perspective on Alfa's current scale at the moment:

So far this year, Alfa have sold 115 cars, 40% of which were 159s.


Kia have sold 150 PETROL Kia Rios (30% more than all Alfas)
Seat have sold 150 Exeos, I don't know if I've seen more than one or two on the road.

Hyundai with a 3.45% market share sold more cars in August than Alfa sold all year.

So far this year, Suzuki sold more Altos than Alfa sold cars.


So, if it's not the pricing that's the issue, can you explain to me exactly what you think the issue is that's causing this poor performance?


Don't get me wrong, I really, really like Alfas. I'd happily drive a 159 if I believed it would be reliable and wouldn't cost me too much in depreciation.

-Chris-

VolvoMan wrote: »

I wasn't making it personal....

I just get the feeling that you're a casual car admirer, rather than full blown enthusiast; the sort of people who drive Audis. That's not to say it is to be held against you.

Do you not think that's a judgement on me rather than my posts? Just like last time this raised its head, you don't know my history or how familiar I am with any make of car, but you're happy to dismiss my opinions based on your opinion of me.

-Chris-

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

I don't really understand what this has to do with Alfa's pricing. Fair enough if you don't like Audi's (even if they are a quality machine ) but why turn every arguement into a "I hate Audi" argument?

I'm not sure why Audi are repeatedly being brought into this debate. It's curious.

VolvoMan

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

I don't really understand what this has to do with Alfa's pricing. Fair enough if you don't like Audi's (even if they are a quality machine ) but why turn every arguement into a "I hate Audi" argument?

That's because my post wasn't originally in a thread about Alfa pricing.;)

I didn't a bring up Audi in the first place anyway, it was already being discussed. I wasn't referring to just them either, but the German car manufacturers in general. I think it's time Irish people thought outside the box and stopped thinking that if it's not from BMW, Mercedes or Audi then it's not worth considering.

On that note, to show how I don't aim to discuss the brand status of Audi, I suggest we move on.

CarMuppet

Having owned both a 156 and 159 as family runabouts I have to say they are two different cars in many regards. The 159 is far more refined and the interior far more hard wearing. There were a few niggles but all sorted by dealership.

Deprecitation when buying from new is sore. Don't know if that is due to perception or too high a starting price.

There are loads of preowned alfas out there for cheap money now and people are still not buying! IMO it doesn matter what price an Alfa is set here the Irish public just wont buy them. The end.

Oh yea there the small matter too Alfa have forgotten to put an ad on Irish tv for a long time too n

CompleteCarGuy

The difficulty with Alfa Romeo at the moment is that there are very few dealers, from what we understand the Fiat dealers are not overly pushed on having Alfa Romeo retailing on their premises because even running demo models costs them an arm and a leg. Alfa Romeo have just 0.15% market share at the moment and as regards pricing, the segment that the 159 is, and the likes of the 3-Series, C-Class and Volvo S40/S60 competes in has been hammered by the price war underway in the larger segment. The 5-Series and E-Class now start at around €42,000 (although of course you might end up spending more) but it has meant that the segment below it has suffered, with the obvious exception of Audi and their A4, a car which is doing really well, because Audi in Ireland are now being run very well.

Tea 1000

The thing is, I would rate Alfa Romeo as a brand who are ahead of the Fords of this world, and I would think that they see the brand as one which aims to compete in that market too.
The reason I'm adding an A4 to the discussion is because I see it as relevant. 15 years ago the VAG developed a new platform and first stuck an A4 shell on it, then 2 years later stuck a Passat shell on it. One was 6 grand more expensive than the other. Why? Brand image is the main reason. Audi tried hard and suceeded in getting their brand up to that level.
Alfa haven't tried hard enough, and haven't suceeded. Yet. They don't have near the financial clout that Audi have, so their task is tougher.
The Irish buying public may never get on board with Alfa, but then the Irish buying public are the wrong ones to ask about cars, because 99% of them haven't a notion what they're talking about. (yet somehow they're full of opinions on the matter!).
I think the Guiletta is a fantastic looking car, so far ahead of the 1-series it's not funny. It's also well ahead of the A3. Job done on that one I'd say.
Lets see if the replacement for the 159 does the same job. One thing for sure though is that it'll be aimed squarely at the 3-Series market. It needs to be good, but if the Guiletta is anything to go by, it should be.
Alfa deserve to be in that bracket. They have the design flair and interiors to beat all the competition. The 159 has shown that the build quality is majorly improved.

Alfie1

-Chris- wrote: »

So, if it's not the pricing that's the issue, can you explain to me exactly what you think the issue is that's causing this poor performance?

I'm not the "You" but I think the lack of CO2 emission friendly engines would be the biggest problem, though that may now be less of a problem in the future since the new range of petrol & diesel engines were introduced last month.

racer1

As a person who has owned Saabs and Alfas i will throw in my 2 cents. There is a slight external similarity between the 156 and the 159. When Alfa gave the 156 its last facelift the 159 was being designed so it gave the 156 a taste of the future 159 . As for the pricing of the 159 it is a little high. i think they should be aiming it at the 93 which starts at 29k. The problem with the irish public is that they read too many english mag/websites. And anyone informed know the english are badge snobby. To compare the 93/159/3series/A4 is impossible. You basically get lot more for you buck with the 93/159 than the german cars. But with the german cars you get better qty and resale values. Its up to individuals what they want....