Ridiculous Irish Rail fine

G_R

Hi guys,

Last week, I was getting a train from Cork - Dublin. I'm currently in 3rd Level Education and have a student card from the institute I attend proving that, so naturally I got a Student ticket from the self service machine. During the train journey a ticket inspector asked for my ticket and of course I gave it to her, and also gave her my student card. She asked me if I have an Iranrod Eireann (spelling may not be correct) Student Travel Card? I said no, I didnt think I would need one as I have my College ID. She then proceeded to give me a fine for €126, €26 being the full adult fare for the journey I was taking and €100 for fare evasion! (which is just incorrect, I didn't actively try and avoid paying, I paid what I thought was required for me to pay). I practically pleaded with the lady that I didn't realise that you had to have a specific kind of travel card but she was having none of it.

I now have a bill of €126 to pay to Irish Rail in the next 21 days. Personally I find this absolutely ridiculous but I am reluctant to appeal because it could potentially rise to €1000, and I seriously cannot afford that.

While I do realise that I was technically in the wrong, but surely the inspector in question could have used some discretion and even just asked me to pay the difference!

Opinions and advice please???
Thanks

moonshadow

Hit the joe duffy show with this and ask for some solicitor firm to take it on just to show how foolish the facts are!
Sure they got a lad outta the joy today over stupid people like this that take their job satisfaction through the roof!!

Moonbeam

When you bought it did they ask you to show a student card?

G_R

Moonbeam wrote: »

When you bought it did they ask you to show a student card?

I bought it from the self service kiosk thing. It asked for a card number and I put in my College ID number and the machine was happy enough with that.

G_R

moonshadow wrote: »

Hit the joe duffy show with this and ask for some solicitor firm to take it on just to show how foolish the facts are!
Sure they got a lad outta the joy today over stupid people like this that take their job satisfaction through the roof!!

the thought crossed my mind, but I usually hate people like that. Ill think about it:)

goingnowhere

If you really bought it from a ticket machine it clearly says you need student travel card, it shows a photo of one on the screen and asks you to key in the 6 digit id number. Bought online there is a pop up warning to the same. I wonder how an 8 digit college id number fits in the 6 digit space on the screen...

You broke the rules and failed to have the supporting id card, you got fined correctly. You committed an offense greater than not having a ticket you avoided the payment of the correct fare due.

Grow up and pay up

Sardonicat

dannym08 wrote: »

Hi guys,

I'm currently in 3rd Level Education and have a student card from the institute I attend proving that, so naturally I got a Student ticket from the self service machine. During the train journey a ticket inspector asked for my ticket and of course I gave it to her, and also gave her my student card. She asked me if I have an Iranrod Eireann (spelling may not be correct) Student Travel Card? I said no, I didnt think I would need one as I have my College ID.

Hi OP

Sorry you were caught out like that. Unfortunately, I think to avail of the student rate you need to have a iarnrod eireann travel card. Cos this is in their Ts&Cs you won't be able to claim you didn't know AFIK.:(
http://www.irishrail.ie/your_ticket/fares_enquiries.asp

I think the reason being they insist on their own cards is they actually charge for thrm, so it is revenue for them .As you hadn't purchased one you were getting the benefit of the reduced fair without paying for the card that entitles you to the reduction

The most annoying thing to me is Bus Eireann accept college ID cards no probs!

Think the best thing would be to pay the fine. If you wanna fight it do so after and see if you can get your money back.

It's a tough one

G_R

goingnowhere wrote: »

If you really bought it from a ticket machine it clearly says you need student travel card, it shows a photo of one on the screen and asks you to key in the 6 digit id number.

I don't know why you would be suggesting I didn't buy it from a ticket machine. I know it had a picture of a student travel card, but as far as I can see, it didn't say anywhere on the screen that this was the only form of Student ID acceptable. I assumed it was showing that as an example as that is a kind of card, i didnt realise it was the only one acceptable. I use LUAS, bus eireann and many other private bus services and they all accept my college ID.

goingnowhere wrote: »

Bought online there is a pop up warning to the same. I wonder how an 8 digit college id number fits in the 6 digit space on the screen...

You broke the rules and failed to have the supporting id card, you got fined correctly. You committed an offense greater than not having a ticket you avoided the payment of the correct fare due.

Grow up and pay up

Again, I would appreciate you didn't assume you knew all the facts, my college number is a letter, followed by 6 digits. It's not my CAO number as some colleges use. I ommited the letter and put in the 6 digits

Nonoperational

You got caught pay the bloody fine.

flyingsnail

dannym08 wrote: »

I don't know why you would be suggesting I didn't buy it from a ticket machine. I know it had a picture of a student travel card, but as far as I can see, it didn't say anywhere on the screen that this was the only form of Student ID acceptable. I assumed it was showing that as an example as that is a kind of card, i didnt realise it was the only one acceptable. I use LUAS, bus eireann and many other private bus services and they all accept my college ID.



Again, I would appreciate you didn't assume you knew all the facts, my college number is a letter, followed by 6 digits. It's not my CAO number as some colleges use. I ommited the letter and put in the 6 digits

But if you had put it in as it was shown on the student ID (including the letter) then it wouldn't have worked.

Judging by the number of threads the rpu must be out in force lately .

Sardonicat your not the only one, it took me 3 attempts getting a 503 service not available message to post this.

delta_bravo

I think the Student travelcard is a rip off middle man money making scheme but that is the only Student card IR recognise. You were wrong, you will have to pay up. From my experience ticket checkers are very keen on ensuring students have correct ID. If you are a regular user the travelcard pays for itself and I think AIB are giving them away free if you set up a student a/c.

G_R

delta_bravo wrote: »

I think the Student travelcard is a rip off middle man money making scheme but that is the only Student card IR recognise. You were wrong, you will have to pay up. From my experience ticket checkers are very keen on ensuring students have correct ID. If you are a regular user the travelcard pays for itself and I think AIB are giving them away free if you set up a student a/c.

I realise I was wrong, I acknowledge that. I just think that €126 is a ridiculous amount for me to have to pay considering that I am actually a Student. I know, I know, you have to have that specific card but still, its infuriating. I think, given the circumstances, it would have been more appropriate to just ask me to pay the difference in fares, and give me a warning to not do it again.

And I know this can't be used as an excuse, and I'll more than likely get loads of replies saying that "your not the only one", "sure everyone's in the same boat" etc etc, but I seriously cant afford a €126, money is tight enough as it is.

Sardonicat

In fairness to the OP, because you can use your college I.D. for most other modes of public transport it would be an easy assumption to make, especially if you have just started 3rd level and aren't used to travelling by train on a student fair. As I said, Bus Eireann always accecpted my college i.d. (this is up to last year anyway) and seemed happy if I produced either card (they accept the iarnrod eireann one also)

Still, OP, because they publish their Ts &Cs you will have to pay the fine.

I can understand how you would make the assumption to begin with, though.

TheChrisD

While you did get fined, which is quite the unfortunate circumstance, I only wonder what the self-service station actually said to you when you were getting the ticket. Because technically it sold you the wrong ticket, and therefore you shouldn't be the one in the wrong - but I don't have much knowledge of how IR works, so I can't say for certain.

I mean, what if this had happened, but you'd bought it from the guy at the office who accepted your student card?

gpf101 wrote: »

You got caught pay the bloody fine.

Now that's just uncalled for.

G_R

TheChrisD wrote: »

While you did get fined, which is quite the unfortunate circumstance, I only wonder what the self-service station actually said to you when you were getting the ticket. Because technically it sold you the wrong ticket, and therefore you shouldn't be the one in the wrong - but I don't have much knowledge of how IR works, so I can't say for certain.

I mean, what if this had happened, but you'd bought it from the guy at the office who accepted your student card?

Like yourself, I don't know how the machine works, but I would imagine that so long as it gets a 6 digit number its happy. I guess I was just unlucky that my College ID has only 6 digits.

Sardonicat

TheChrisD wrote: »

While you did get fined, which is quite the unfortunate circumstance, I only wonder what the self-service station actually said to you when you were getting the ticket. Because technically it sold you the wrong ticket, and therefore you shouldn't be the one in the wrong - but I don't have much knowledge of how IR works, so I can't say for certain.

Chris has a good point, OP. Having said that, I used to work for a consumer advice body (which shall remain nameless) so while you may have a case there, I still think you should pay the fine first, and maybe try to get your money back through small claims if you have a case. You should never not pay a fine really, even if it has been given out in error, it's best to pay up and then try to reclaim. You are asking for a world of trouble if you don't.

Maybe you could post on the Legal Issues thread detailing how you inputted your college number into the machine and it still gave you a ticket. At least there you could get some accurate advice.

Another option is to ring the national consumer helpline?

G_R

TheChrisD wrote: »

While you did get fined, which is quite the unfortunate circumstance, I only wonder what the self-service station actually said to you when you were getting the ticket. Because technically it sold you the wrong ticket, and therefore you shouldn't be the one in the wrong - but I don't have much knowledge of how IR works, so I can't say for certain.

I mean, what if this had happened, but you'd bought it from the guy at the office who accepted your student card?

Like yourself, I don't know how the machine works, but I would imagine that so long as it gets a 6 digit number its happy. I guess I was just unlucky that my College ID has only 6 digits.

questionmark?

This kind of ridiculous situation is happening to much. Pay the fine in protest sending a letter detailing your grievances with the situation to IR (sur we're not there yet but by jasus we'll rip ya off while we're on the way). Bring it up with your local TD, send an e-mail or a text to your local radio station. Make a big deal of it. If enough people do, this kind of crap might stop.



To the person who said "you got caught pay the bloody fine"

The OP has a student card which is accepted by 99% of businesses that offer student discounts. He entered the number into the machine, the machine accepted it, they had their card with them and a ticket. So your comment is unjustified.

mickydoomsux

Sardonicat wrote: »

In fairness to the OP, because you can use your college I.D. for most other modes of public transport it would be an easy assumption to make, especially if you have just started 3rd level and aren't used to travelling by train on a student fair. As I said, Bus Eireann always accecpted my college i.d. (this is up to last year anyway) and seemed happy if I produced either card (they accept the iarnrod eireann one also)

Still, OP, because they publish their Ts &Cs you will have to pay the fine.

I can understand how you would make the assumption to begin with, though.

Technically BE should not accept college ID because they are included in the Student Travel Card system along with the LUAS, Dart and Dublin bus. No other form of ID is supposed to be accepted besides the Student Travel Card but the only people who seem to enforce this are IE.

This was designed to curb abuse of the system by every Tom, Dick and Harry producing college ID cards with either no photo, no issue date or no expiry date on them to get student fares. The system had to be standardised to avoid abuse of student IDs by people who were out of college for 4 and 5 years but still using their old ID because they had little or no info on them besides a photo.

The actual Student Travel card is a outside company, much like Taxsaver, that negotiated a deal with CIE and Veoila to issue the travel card on their behalf. They can hardly be considered a rip off because if you are making any kind of a long jurney home at the weekend or you commute to college daily then you'll make back the money paid for the card in about 2 or 3 journeys compared to what you'd pay for the standard adult fare.

As regards the OP, it's made very clear at the TVM that you need to have a student travel card, they even show a picture of it on-screen. The same with buying from a booking office/on board ticket checker, they will not accept a college ID under any circumstances.

G_R

Sardonicat wrote: »

Chris has a good point, OP. Having said that, I used to work for a consumer advice body (which shall remain nameless) so while you may have a case there, I still think you should pay the fine first, and maybe try to get your money back through small claims if you have a case. You should never not pay a fine really, even if it has been given out in error, it's best to pay up and then try to reclaim. You are asking for a world of trouble if you don't.

Maybe you could post on the Legal Issues thread detailing how you inputted your college number into the machine and it still gave you a ticket. At least there you could get some accurate advice.

Another option is to ring the national consumer helpline?

questionmark? wrote: »

This kind of ridiculous situation is happening to much. Pay the fine in protest sending a letter detailing your grievances with the situation to IR (sur we're not there yet but by jasus we'll rip ya off while we're on the way). Bring it up with your local TD, send an e-mail or a text to your local radio station. Make a big deal of it. If enough people do, this kind of crap might stop.

To the person who said "you got caught pay the bloody fine"

The OP has a student card which is accepted by 99% of businesses that offer student discounts. He entered the number into the machine, the machine accepted it, they had their card with them and a ticket. So your comment is unjustified.

Thanks for the advice guys. I'm reluctant to start emailing and texting radio stations, because, as people keep pointing out to me, I was wrong and I realise that, I even said so in my OP.

My main reason for starting this thread, aside from seeing if there was any case to be made for appealing it (which it appears there isn't), was just to draw attention to the fines being imposed. I don't think anyone on here would argue that €126 is a reasonable punishment for the crime committed.

Sardonicat

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Technically BE should not accept college ID because they are included in the Student Travel Card system along with the LUAS, Dart and Dublin bus. No other form of ID is supposed to be accepted besides the Student Travel Card but the only people who seem to enforce this are IE.

This was designed to curb abuse of the system by every Tom, Dick and Harry producing college ID cards with either no photo, no issue date or no expiry date on them to get student fares. The system had to be standardised to avoid abuse of student IDs by people who were out of college for 4 and 5 years but still using their old ID because they had little or no info on them besides a photo.

The actual Student Travel card is a outside company, much like Taxsaver, that negotiated a deal with CIE and Veoila to issue the travel card on their behalf. They can hardly be considered a rip off because if you are making any kind of a long jurney home at the weekend or you commute to college daily then you'll make back the money paid for the card in about 2 or 3 journeys compared to what you'd pay for the standard adult fare.

As regards the OP, it's made very clear at the TVM that you need to have a student travel card, they even show a picture of it on-screen. The same with buying from a booking office/on board ticket checker, they will not accept a college ID under any circumstances.

Thanks for that, Mickey.Did not know that about BE

I think you can understand the OPs confusion.

Just to add, I was not tryig to scam BE. I did have an IR card. On one occasion when I was getting my ticket in Busaras I pulled out my student card by mistake. I apologised, and reached for my wallet to get the IR card out and the guy at the ticket desk told me my student card would be fine!

I'm guessing form your post that the reason he said that was 'cos my student card had my photo and date of expiry on it. Where I studied we had to renew our cards each year. I thought that this was common practice at all third level institutions now. They had to bring in these measures to curb exam cheating(student card had to be on your desk during exams).So, I'm a bit surprised at the idea of every Tom, Dick and Harry with dateless, photoless student I.D.s. I don't think they exist anymore

If the OP had a card like this, with his photo and dates on it, then I think the woman giving him the fine could have used a bit of common sense. Yes, I know he should have had the correct card, but if it was obviously a current, valid student I.D. with his photo on it she could have just given out to him and warned him not to do it again. It seems like a genuine mistake. I know she was just doing her job, but still, a bit of professional judgement can go a long way IMO.Esp as the machine issued him with a ticket.He obviously wasn't deliberately trying to pull a fast one.

xper

Sardonicat wrote: »

... detailing how you inputted your college number into the machine and it still gave you a ticket.

But by his own admission, he didn't even do that, after being asked to enter his student travel card ID, he punched in part of his alphanumeric college ID. That's just a little bit ... well, dumb.

(The point of entering this ID is presumably just to tie the purchased ticket to the one identity so its not transferrable, not to validate that the carrier does possess a genuine student travel card - I doubt the student identity card IDs contains check digits like card numbers do).

OK, so it was an honest mistake, not a deliberate act of evasion, but the fact is that mistakes have their consequences too. My advice to Danny is to chalk this one up as a learning experience in the big, bad world.

That said, Danny, you could also do a quick search too for a recent thread here where someone was similarly fined for an honest train ticket mistake. I think I recall they spoke to someone in IE by phone and the fine was dropped.If you are reasonable, apologetic and you catach the right person on the right day, you may get off the hook.

BTW, I wouldn't consider 126 euros an excessive fine. The value has to be high enough to stop deliberate evaders taking a chance and getting away with it enough of the time to make it worth it. Otherwise, there's no point.

G_R

xper wrote: »

But by his own admission, he didn't even do that, after being asked to enter his student travel card ID, he punched in part of his alphanumeric college ID. That's just a little bit ... well, dumb.

OK, so it was an honest mistake, not a deliberate act of evasion, but the fact is that mistakes have their consequences too. My advice to Danny is to chalk this one up as a learning experience in the big, bad world.

That said, Danny, you could also do a quick search too for a recent thread here where someone was similarly fined for an honest train ticket mistake. I think I recall they spoke to someone in IE by phone and the fine was dropped.If you are reasonable, apologetic and you catach the right person on the right day, you may get off the hook.

BTW, I wouldn't consider 126 euros an excessive fine. The value has to be high enough to stop deliberate evaders taking a chance and getting away with it enough of the time to make it worth it. Otherwise, there's no point.

I take your point, but I only left out the first letter because there was no letter keyboard on the screen. I know that should have triggered it with me that it wasn't valid, but it didn't, and I just put in the number.

Thanks for you advice, i'll search for that thread and give them a call. I might get lucky.


And just with regards to the fine amount, I do agree that the fine for fare evasion has to be high, I was just saying that in this case, where there was obviously a mix up and I was actively trying to evade my fare, she could have just asked me to pay the difference, which I would have had no problem with.

AlekSmart

One of the more worrying elements of threads such as this is the preponderance of 3rd level Students who for one reason or another fall foul of the I.D verfication system.

I`m somewhat perplexed that a country which places great store on it`s "Knowledge Based Economy" status can still manage to produce significant numbers of Students who fail to apply a level of study to their travel requirements commensurate with their status as Students.

Having thus begun,it is perhaps unsurprising that in later life we find many people unable to make a distinction between the Spouse/Partner and a Child on DSP Free Travel Passes.

One thing is apparent and it is how large a comprehension problem we have in general with rules,regulations and laws.

It needs to be borne in mind that being a Student of any type does not automatically entitle one to any discount as of right.

However,many commercial entities offer discounts or other enticements to the greater Student body on production of the relevant valid Identity documents.

It is surely incumbent on the Student to ensure that he/she meets these requirements before embarking upon attempting to use whetever document they think is valid.

For example Dannym08 continues....

I assumed it was showing that as an example as that is a kind of card, i didnt realise it was the only one acceptable. I use LUAS, bus eireann and many other private bus services and they all accept my college ID.

Assumption alone,in these cases,will end up costing you more such fines if you don`t do some basic homework as in the case of Luas.....a quick check here will set you right on their Student ID requirements....

http://www.luas.ie/ticket-types.php

......from that page........

Students must have a valid Student Travel Card. Please visit www.studenttravelcard.ie for further information.

Clicking on the STC link brings you to an external page which has comprehensive info on what it is and who accepts it.

There is a point worth making that Bus Eireann alone have a somewhat conflicting policy in that it accepts individual College ID cards,which as Mickydoomsux posts,places it at varience with the ethos of the Student Travel Card scheme.

Of more relevance to Dannym08 is the IE site...

http://www.irishrail.ie/your_ticket/fares_enquiries.asp

...and from that...

Conditions:

Student - Available to holders of a valid Iarnród Éireann Student TravelCard

Again clicking on the STC link brings one to the same home page as the Luas link and the Dublin Bus link.

Once again,we need to underline the fact that Student Tickets are concessionary not as of right.

it`s also worth noting that these discounts are always under review,with Bus Eireann in particular having narrowed their differential substantially in recent years.

Like the other posters,I would suggest that Dannym08,firstly write to IE appealing the fine on the grounds he feels are valid....that places the ball very firmly back in IE`s court....However it`s also probably true to say that it has concentrated his mind to an extent that many lectures failed to do ?

Transportuser09

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Technically BE should not accept college ID because they are included in the Student Travel Card system along with the LUAS, Dart and Dublin bus. No other form of ID is supposed to be accepted besides the Student Travel Card but the only people who seem to enforce this are IE.

BÉ clearly state they do accept college issued cards though, and have a list of "recognised" colleges: http://www.buseireann.ie/inner.php?id=52

Any official Student Travel card I've seen doesn't have the BÉ logo on it, although they do seem to have the IÉ, BÁC and Luas ones. Often wondered why BÉ seem to be the exception to this.

Sardonicat

AlekSmart wrote: »

One of the more worrying elements of threads such as this is the preponderance of 3rd level Students who for one reason or another fall foul of the I.D verfication system.

I`m somewhat perplexed that a country which places great store on it`s "Knowledge Based Economy" status can still manage to produce significant numbers of Students who fail to apply a level of study to their travel requirements commensurate with their status as Students.

Having thus begun,it is perhaps unsurprising that in later life we find many people unable to make a distinction between a Spouse/Partner and a Child.

One thing is apparent and it is how large a comprehension problem we have in general with rules,regulations and laws.

It needs to be borne in mind that being a Student of any type does not automatically entitle one to any discount as of right.

However,many commercial entities offer discounts or other enticements to the greater Student body on production of the relevant valid Identity documents.

It is surely incumbent on the Student to ensure that he/she meets these requirements before embarking upon attempting to use whetever document they think is valid.

For example Dannym08 continues....

Assumption alone,in these cases,will end up costing you more such fines if you don`t do some basic homework as in the case of Luas.....a quick check here will set you right on their Student ID requirements....

http://www.luas.ie/ticket-types.php

......from that page........

Clicking on the STC link brings you to an external page which has comprehensive info on what it is and who accepts it.

There is a point worth making that Bus Eireann alone have a somewhat conflicting policy in that it accepts individual College ID cards,which as Mickydoomsux posts,places it at varience with the ethos of the Student Travel Card scheme.

Of more relevance to Dannym08 is the IE site...

http://www.irishrail.ie/your_ticket/fares_enquiries.asp

...and from that...



Again clicking on the STC link brings one to the same home page as the Luas link and the Dublin Bus link.

Once again,we need to underline the fact that Student Tickets are concessionary not as of right.

it`s also worth noting that these discounts are always under review,with Bus Eireann in particular having narrowed their differential substantially in recent years.

Like the other posters,I would suggest that Dannym08,firstly write to IE appealing the fine on the grounds he feels are valid....that places the ball very firmly back in IE`s court....However it`s also probably true to say that it has concentrated his mind to an extent that many lectures failed to do ?

It's a bit rich blame students for having assumptions about what card is valid where when incidents like the one below happen!

Sardonicat wrote: »

On one occasion when I was getting my ticket in Busaras I pulled out my student card by mistake. I apologised, and reached for my wallet to get the IR card out and the guy at the ticket desk told me my student card would be fine!

I tend to "assume" I can trust the that word of the person selling me the ticket is representatitve of the company that he works for.

Sardonicat

Transportuser09 wrote: »

BÉ clearly state they do accept college issued cards though, and have a list of "recognised" colleges: http://www.buseireann.ie/inner.php?id=52

Any official Student Travel card I've seen doesn't have the BÉ logo on it, although they do seem to have the IÉ, BÁC and Luas ones. Often wondered why BÉ seem to be the exception to this.

Thanks transporter, didn't see ur post re BE til after I submitted mine.

There's obviously a lot of confusion and misinformation about this. I think the best advice to all students is to get an IR card (I did find mine great value for money over the years) for travel.And when in doubt, produce that card first.

DDigital

Don't pay the fine and fight it on the grounds that you are actually a student and consequently are entitled to the discounted fare that the travel card entitleds you to in the first place. You can surely prove that you are a student and attending a particular third level institution.

Genuine people need to start standing up to the conviluted crap dispensed by the CIE group. While the student travel card scheme makes sense in eliminating the issue of out of date college IDs or those with minimal info on them, a level of discretion must exist. Otherwise its just a system whereby fines can be dished out on the slightest of technicalities to persons who cannot reasonably afford them.

I believe that the OP should fight this and no court in the land will convict.

Whatever happened to the USIT card with travel stamp? So much simpler.

DDigital

Transportuser09 wrote: »

BÉ clearly state they do accept college issued cards though, and have a list of "recognised" colleges: http://www.buseireann.ie/inner.php?id=52

Any official Student Travel card I've seen doesn't have the BÉ logo on it, although they do seem to have the IÉ, BÁC and Luas ones. Often wondered why BÉ seem to be the exception to this.

Considering that BE are part of the CIE group, this just highlights the inconsistancies that lead to so much confusion. The entire ticketing system within the CIE group is flawed and full of contradictions. I already know that the rail ticket to Galway, I buy at my local stations TVM this Saturday will cause problems en route. Always does and still to this day (after over 4 years) the problem has not been rectified or even clarified.

dfx-

I know it was abruptly put earlier in the thread, but you had the wrong ID card, by mistake or otherwise, how can you argue it?

Maybe my head has been turned by my recent stay in Munich where almost all complaints are ignored or not entertained, but why is it ridiculous?

AlekSmart

Maybe my head has been turned by my recent stay in Munich where almost all complaints are ignored or not entertained, but why is it ridiculous?

As a matter of interest dfx-,how did you find Munich`s Public Transport....?

xper

DDigital wrote: »

Don't pay the fine and fight it on the grounds that you are actually a student and consequently are entitled to the discounted fare that the travel card entitleds you to in the first place...
... I believe that the OP should fight this and no court in the land will convict.

That's a little naive. Students are entitled to discounted travel on IE provided they fulfil the terms and conditions of the discounted fare which in this case, through user error, did not occur. As Alek and I suggested, a bit of civil human interaction with a touch of grovelling thrown in if necessary is far more likely to result in the desired display of discretion and the waiver of the fine. 'Fighting' will end in more tears and far greater expense.

Whatever happened to the USIT card with travel stamp? So much simpler.

IIRC, USIT went bust many years ago and the standalone student travel card scheme replaced the role previously fulfilled by the travel-stamp-on-the-back-of-your-USIT-card.

xper

DDigital wrote: »

The entire ticketing system within the CIE group is flawed and full of contradictions.

Yes. Yes, it is. But, until the revolution happens, they are still the rules we all have to play by.

More broadly speaking, I do think people need to put little value in the fact that BE, DB and IE are all in the CIE group. It clearly has little bearing on their day-to-day operation.

dfx-

AlekSmart - Fantastic, terrific, easy to follow, information-rich, prohibitively expensive for one-off journeys, heavily integrated, next bus/tram/train/underground displays on every stop, cross-platform interchanges between separate lines, helpful and friendly staff, no-nonsense multi-lingual undercover inspectors, user-friendly, comfortable...I could go on

I remember reading somewhere they won an award last year for the best transport system and I can see why.

I MVV and MVG

xper

dfx- wrote: »

AlekSmart - Fantastic, terrific, easy to follow, information-rich, prohibitively expensive for one-off journeys, heavily integrated, next bus/tram/train/underground displays on every stop, cross-platform interchanges between separate lines, helpful and friendly staff, no-nonsense multi-lingual undercover inspectors, user-friendly, comfortable...I could go on

Between the last week's N11 corridor adventures and your stream of conciousness Munich transport review, for a second there, ... just for a second ... I wished ... I wished the Nazis had won.:eek:

Godwin's Law?

AlekSmart

no-nonsense multi-lingual undercover inspectors

Thanks dfx-,I`d be familiar enough with Berlin (BVG) but not Munich.

However I suspect the "No Nonsense" element of the Inspectorate would grate a wee bit on our native sensitivities..?

I too encountered two of these very type of Inspectors on the BVG system,luckily I was fully compliant,but I watched with interest as they comprehensively seperated a Student from his money cos he was`nt properly documented.

From the accounts now appearing on Boards.ie it seems na micléinni gaelach will have to get a bit Germanic too ?

Also that bit about the single journey being prohibitively expensive may give some little understanding as to where the efficiency thang begins..??

dfx-

The cross route platform change was remarkable in its simplicity. A U2 train would arrive at Scheidplatz and wait until the U3 train arrived and anyone wanting to hop off one and onto the other one did so. They then both depart. You knew if you needed to connect, the train would be waiting for you or would wait for the other train.

They certainly took a bit of getting used to, AlekSmart. My first time checked was on the first week by what appeared to be a group of 5 builders reading the newspaper. A few run-ins with otherwise completely unremarkable people has turned me to their way of thinking. You could have a paid fine in 5 minutes. Especially when I compared it to my previous experience of DB or Luas or IE where you can see them coming..

All incentivising the monthly and weekly tickets based on zones...and for all forms of transport within those zones.

MOH

I travelled on the Sligo line Friday before last and ended up sitting beside two students who got on at Maynooth.

The ticket checker came along, asked for their tickets, which they handed over, then asked for their travel card, and they both produced their college IDs. His response was a clipped: "No good!". He asked for their travel cards - they didn't know what he was talking about.

He then asked how they'd managed to get the tickets without a travel card.
They told him they'd arrived in Maynooth station, asked for tickets to Sligo, they'd been asked were they students in Maynooth and been issued the student tickets. It was pretty clear from both their reactions, and their conversation before and after, that this was the case.

The ticket checker then unbelievably told them that the Irish Rail position is that it doesn't matter what ticket you're sold by a staff member, it's up to you to have the right one, and that there's a €100 euro fine otherwise.

After some arguing back and forth he eventually 'let them off' with just paying the difference in fare.

With that kind of moronic attitude - staff selling the wrong ticket, and other staff saying that's your tough luck - it's no wonder people end up confused.

While doubtless people do try to cheat the system, you'd think they'd cop on that at this time of year there's thousands of new students travelling on Irirsh Rail for the first time who haven't experienced their incompetence before.

JustAddWater

Exactly

This is the time of the year to catch inexperienced people out. Its about the revenue for them, plain and simple. They don't give a rats who you are, where you got your ticket or who sold it to you

There's an awful lot of threads similar to the OP's appearing lately. They're just money grabbers, preying on those who are not used to their setup

MOH wrote: »

While doubtless people do try to cheat the system, you'd think they'd cop on that at this time of year there's thousands of new students travelling on Irirsh Rail for the first time who haven't experienced their incompetence before.

AlekSmart

The ticket checker then unbelievably told them that the Irish Rail position is that it doesn't matter what ticket you're sold by a staff member, it's up to you to have the right one, and that there's a €100 euro fine otherwise.

That`s about it in a nutshell MOH.

You'd think they'd cop on that at this time of year there's thousands of new students travelling on Irirsh Rail for the first time who haven't experienced their incompetence before.

It is,however,a double edged sword.

We are not talking here about first day in Low Babies here,but thousands of young sassy folk having proven their academic abilities and secured places in "College"

One of the first elements I notice with each years brood is the amount of precision they will generally approach the area of Alcohol related ID requirements and venue specific entrance requirements.

It`s always struck me as odd how the new starts appear to regard Public Transport requirements as a very great imposition and not worthy of paying all that much atention to.

Beaucoupfish

Write Irish Rail a letter and try and appeal it.

foggy_lad

MOH wrote: »

I travelled on the Sligo line Friday before last and ended up sitting beside two students who got on at Maynooth.

The ticket checker came along, asked for their tickets, which they handed over, then asked for their travel card, and they both produced their college IDs. His response was a clipped: "No good!". He asked for their travel cards - they didn't know what he was talking about.

He then asked how they'd managed to get the tickets without a travel card.
They told him they'd arrived in Maynooth station, asked for tickets to Sligo, they'd been asked were they students in Maynooth and been issued the student tickets. It was pretty clear from both their reactions, and their conversation before and after, that this was the case.

The ticket checker then unbelievably told them that the Irish Rail position is that it doesn't matter what ticket you're sold by a staff member, it's up to you to have the right one, and that there's a €100 euro fine otherwise.

After some arguing back and forth he eventually 'let them off' with just paying the difference in fare.

With that kind of moronic attitude - staff selling the wrong ticket, and other staff saying that's your tough luck - it's no wonder people end up confused.

While doubtless people do try to cheat the system, you'd think they'd cop on that at this time of year there's thousands of new students travelling on Irirsh Rail for the first time who haven't experienced their incompetence before.

is it not about time that irish fail changed the rules on id which they accept and let people use any "student" id as long as it is valid, from a list of institutions in the state and with an expiry date and photograph.


they seem more interested in revenue procurement with their RPA people than proper customer service!

dowlingm

Foggy - no. Why should a driver have to familiarise themselves with a whole whack of student IDs to try and figure out genuine ones.

However, what they should do is go back to accepting ISICs.

foggy_lad

dowlingm wrote: »

Foggy - no. Why should a driver have to familiarise themselves with a whole whack of student IDs to try and figure out genuine ones.

However, what they should do is go back to accepting ISICs.

all they have to do is read the front of the card and see it is for x y or z college or university and check the expiry date, if they cant do this i would question their competance to drive a bus or work on a train.

call the police

foggy_lad wrote: »

all they have to do is read the front of the card and see it is for x y or z college or university and check the expiry date, if they cant do this i would question their competance to drive a bus or work on a train.

what about fake student cards that are good enough to fool off licence, bar staff and bouncers,
it's a bit severe to question the competence of transport staff in this matter.
i think its quite sensible to have one student ID easily recognised by their staff

has anyone thought these people could have got a friend with a student card to buy the tickets at the window and then gave the ticket checker on the train a cock and bull story

MOH

call the police wrote: »

has anyone thought these people could have got a friend with a student card to buy the tickets at the window and then gave the ticket checker on the train a cock and bull story

Well, given I was sitting beside them and they were discussing it both before and afterwards, and they suggested the ticket checker call Maynooth to confirm their story, they seemed pretty genuine.

AlekSmart wrote:

That`s about it in a nutshell MOH.

So every Irish Rail customer (student, tourist, whatever) is obliged to be more aware of the ticketing regulations than the employees are?
I'd welcome a link - there's nothing I can find in the Irish Rail bye laws or conditions of carriage putting the responsibility on passengers who have been mis-sold a ticket by Irish Rai lstaff.

One of the first elements I notice with each years brood is the amount of precision they will generally approach the area of Alcohol related ID requirements and venue specific entrance requirements.

It`s always struck me as odd how the new starts appear to regard Public Transport requirements as a very great imposition and not worthy of paying all that much atention to.

In the specific case I'm referring to, they asked for a ticket for their journey. They were asked were they students and then offered a student ticket, with no mention of any specific ID requirements. If it was me, I'd assume the person selling me the ticket knew the regulations - I wouldn't go off searching the web to see if there were any attached conditions I wasn't being told about.

Wacky conspiracy theory: Irish Rail deliberately mis-selling tickets to people they know aren'tyet au fait with the rules would be a nice little revenue earner (Of course, I'm not seriously suggesting this is the case)

penexpers

dannym08 wrote: »

My main reason for starting this thread, aside from seeing if there was any case to be made for appealing it (which it appears there isn't), was just to draw attention to the fines being imposed. I don't think anyone on here would argue that €126 is a reasonable punishment for the crime committed.

The whole point of heavy fines for fare evasion is to discourage it. If (as you suggest), the only fine was the difference in fare, it would actually encourage fare evasion as people would know the worst that could happen is the difference in fare (i.e. it's worth taking the risk that there won't be a ticket inspector on board)

mikemac

foggy_lad wrote: »

is it not about time that irish fail changed the rules on id which they accept and let people use any "student" id as long as it is valid, from a list of institutions in the state and with an expiry date and photograph.

No, there is one standard student card.
In my day :cool:, it cost a few punts and you got loads of vouchers with that.

Drivers and staff only have to identify one card, not cards from every institution in a city

stop

Well foggy, UCD no longer prints an expiration date on it's student cards (since sep 2009), so unless attending university should entitle someone to discounted travel for life, the student travel card is sensible option for all transport providers.

It's also worth noting that either AIB or BOI usually do freshers week promotions offering students a free travel card when they open a bank account.

foggy_lad

call the police wrote: »

what about fake student cards that are good enough to fool off licence, bar staff and bouncers,
it's a bit severe to question the competence of transport staff in this matter.
i think its quite sensible to have one student ID easily recognised by their staff

has anyone thought these people could have got a friend with a student card to buy the tickets at the window and then gave the ticket checker on the train a cock and bull story

use the student id number on the ticket in the case of irish rail as this is unlikely to happen with busses but even there the id number could be input into the ticket machines with little effort.

is it really that much of a chore for drivers to be awake and alert at the wheel of a bus enough so thay would be able to tell a dodgey fake from the real thing? is there not also fake travel cards?

MOH wrote: »

So every Irish Rail customer (student, tourist, whatever) is obliged to be more aware of the ticketing regulations than the employees are?
I'd welcome a link - there's nothing I can find in the Irish Rail bye laws or conditions of carriage putting the responsibility on passengers who have been mis-sold a ticket by Irish Rai lstaff.



In the specific case I'm referring to, they asked for a ticket for their journey. They were asked were they students and then offered a student ticket, with no mention of any specific ID requirements. If it was me, I'd assume the person selling me the ticket knew the regulations - I wouldn't go off searching the web to see if there were any attached conditions I wasn't being told about.

Wacky conspiracy theory: Irish Rail deliberately mis-selling tickets to people they know aren'tyet au fait with the rules would be a nice little revenue earner (Of course, I'm not seriously suggesting this is the case)

they asked to purchase a valid ticket and were given a "valid" ticket by an authorised agent of the company so they should not be fined at all!

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Of course your presumption in this regard is that the "student" is telling the truth! not always known to be the case. And also that one student with a travel card didn't go up and buy a number of tickets at various times and then sell them to his/her friends.

I'm not saying that the story about the students is incorrect but I would have my doubts that an employee would just say "ah you're grand with any student ID".

student id numbers can easily be put onto train tickets the same way free travel pass holders have their pps number put on tickets as well as the tickets being a different colour than normal standard single or returns(which i am sure is discrimination as other transport companies do not have this requirement).

and has already been stated by people here they were sold tickets by staff who accepted their normal student id without saying anything about needing any other id so they must be deemed to have purchased in good faith and been authorised to travel by incompetant poorly trained ticket seller.

call the police

foggy_lad wrote: »

(1) use the student id number on the ticket in the case of irish rail as this is unlikely to happen with busses but even there the id number could be input into the ticket machines with little effort.

(2) is it really that much of a chore for drivers to be awake and alert at the wheel of a bus enough so thay would be able to tell a dodgey fake from the real thing? is there not also fake travel cards?.

the only sensible thing is one card easily recognised by staff & customers because:

(1) the transport providers could easily download student numbers issued by one card provider, it's ridiculous to suggest that they could do this with every 3rd level institution, this just wouldn't work,
(2) that's a bit insulting, how can a driver tell a fake card, unless you expect every driver to carry an example of all 3rd level ID cards. for example how would a driver in Blanchardstown know what a genuine UL card