Question about religion in schools.

dlofnep

Hi,

My cousin is having trouble with her son. He consistently receives detention for not participating in religion class. He is in third year in secondary school - and he doesn't feel the need to participate because he does not believe in God.

Would my cousin be able to pull him out of class. I feel it is pointless to force religion on him when he is clearly past it, and all it is causing him is grief in school. He does good otherwise in his other subjects - so he shouldn't be receiving detention purely because he doesn't want to engage with religion.

Pushtrak

Been out of school some time now, but isn't religion a subject for the Junior Cert? Is it obligatory? I don't know, so that is why I'm asking. I'm as much in the dark here as you are dlofnep. Am looking forward to seeing what kind of answers are given.

Nemi

dlofnep wrote: »

Hi,

My cousin is having trouble with her son. He consistently receives detention for not participating in religion class. He is in third year in secondary school - and he doesn't feel the need to participate because he does not believe in God.

Would my cousin be able to pull him out of class. I feel it is pointless to force religion on him when he is clearly past it, and all it is causing him is grief in school. He does good otherwise in his other subjects - so he shouldn't be receiving detention purely because he doesn't want to engage with religion.

Couple of questions, just to clarify the case.

Is the school denominational?

Is the religion class that he's doing instruction in the beliefs of a particular faith, or is he following the Junior Cert syllabus which is just about the general topic of religion?

One of mine is following the Junior Cert syllabus; it just a subject like any other, and the textbook is actually reasonably good at outlining what each of the major faiths contend. She finds it about as interesting as staring at a brick wall, and will be dropping it after Junior Cert. But its just part of her schools programme up to then, so you can no more drop it than drop history.

ColmDawson

I had a look at my sister's old Junior Cert religion textbook recently (she's in 5th year now) and I was somewhat surprised to see that it wasn't a properly objective, broad view of world religion. Catholicism, or at least Christianity, seemed to be treated as truth.

The sections on other religions were far shorter and had more of a "followers of religion X believe this" feel.

As far as I can remember, there were bits in the Christianity section with headings like "How do we know the Bible is true?". Full of unsatisfying reasoning and apologetics.

Improbable

I never attended religion class and just got my parents to write a not saying I did not have to attend. This was from second year onwards.

You may get a better/more informed response if you post in the junior cert forum.

alex73

dlofnep wrote: »

Hi,

My cousin is having trouble with her son. He consistently receives detention for not participating in religion class. He is in third year in secondary school - and he doesn't feel the need to participate because he does not believe in God.

Would my cousin be able to pull him out of class. I feel it is pointless to force religion on him when he is clearly past it, and all it is causing him is grief in school. He does good otherwise in his other subjects - so he shouldn't be receiving detention purely because he doesn't want to engage with religion.

Even back in the 80's in my Catholic Secondary school if you were not a Catholic the Religion class was optional. if the Kid does not believe there is no point forcing him. I am surprised the school is even pushing it.

Dades

What do the kids parent(s) have to say about the situation?

A parent can surely ask their child doesn't sit through a non-compulsory subject? (Is it?)

I wonder if the child is being disruptive rather than just a 'conscientious objector'...

liamw

I got out of religion class from 4th year on (it was CBS). Got my parents to write a note, that's all. That should be fine.

I studied actual exam subjects during it instead, figured it was a better use of my time

It can't be generally compulsory for JC as I didn't do it, my school didn't.
Get a note from parents I guess

mikhail

bluewolf wrote: »

It can't be generally compulsory for JC as I didn't do it, my school didn't.
Get a note from parents I guess

What age are you though? Religion as an examinable JC subject is less than a decade old.

Improbable

mikhail wrote: »

What age are you though? Religion as an examinable JC subject is less than a decade old.

I did my junior cert in 2003 and did not do religion.

Cakes.

Pushtrak wrote: »

Been out of school some time now, but isn't religion a subject for the Junior Cert? Is it obligatory? I don't know, so that is why I'm asking. I'm as much in the dark here as you are dlofnep. Am looking forward to seeing what kind of answers are given.

It can be done as an Exam Subject but some schools including mine do it as an extra subject without an exam.

mikhail

mikhail wrote: »

What age are you though? Religion as an examinable JC subject is less than a decade old.

Uhm, oh right yeah, it was 12 years ago.
I can't believe I did my LC nearly a decade ago

dlofnep

Dades wrote: »

What do the kids parent(s) have to say about the situation?

They don't have anything to say. They are agnostic at best. She asked me for my advice. I advised her to go into the school, and speak to someone to allow him to drop the subject so that he is not indoctrinated against his will.

Dades wrote: »

A parent can surely ask their child doesn't sit through a non-compulsory subject? (Is it?)

I don't know - That is why I'm asking.

Dades wrote: »

I wonder if the child is being disruptive rather than just a 'conscientious objector'...

That's hardly relevant. If he doesn't wish to be indoctrinated, then he shouldn't be required to sit in the class. As far as I know - he refuses to engage with the subject, and when the teacher asked why - He said he doesn't believe in God - Apparently she got angry with him, and he subsequently got detention.

krudler

Religion is an exam subject now? how can you sit an exam that has no correct answers? unless they wangle some maths into it:

If Jesus had 5 loaves and 12 fish, and the common hungryness of the crowd was 11, find X. Please show evidence of your answers in the column to the left.

Improbable

krudler wrote: »

Religion is an exam subject now? how can you sit an exam that has no correct answers? unless they wangle some maths into it:

If Jesus had 5 loaves and 12 fish, and the common hungryness of the crowd was 11, find X. Please show evidence of your answers in the column to the left.

There are obviously correct answers if you pose the question in the form "according to the bible..." Doesn't mean it's true but I imagine that's how they would do it.

Choochtown

Your cousin's son does not have to do religion as a subject. It's probably easier for the school to insist he does. If the school is medium size or above they will have the facilities to accomodate students who do not attend particular classes (supervised study room for instance). The Principal will probably feel under pressure from the local priest (even non-catholic (vocational/community schools) will have a priest on the management board) and want to "back up" their religion teacher but that does not mean that your cousin's son should have to sit in a religion class. They could be studying some other subject instead.
My advice would be for the parents to go into the school and in a dignified and controlled manner politely insist that their son does some private study while religion class takes place.
It may seem trivial but I imagine it's a big deal to the lad and his family. Fair play to him for taking a stance. It's only standing up to invisible bullying such as this that will slowly erode the catholic nonsense influence that we have today in our education system.

Good luck to him!

Dades

dlofnep wrote: »

That's hardly relevant. If he doesn't wish to be indoctrinated, then he shouldn't be required to sit in the class. As far as I know - he refuses to engage with the subject, and when the teacher asked why - He said he doesn't believe in God - Apparently she got angry with him, and he subsequently got detention.

You said he consistently got detention. I only asked as it would be disgraceful to consistently punish a child who was simply being honest.

I'm less concerned about whether the subject is compulsory tbh, and more concerned with their treatment of the child.

Solair

You'd really wonder if ireland is actually a western country at times.
That situation is utterly unacceptable in a state funded school.

dlofnep

Dades wrote: »

You said he consistently got detention. I only asked as it would be disgraceful to consistently punish a child who was simply being honest.

I'm less concerned about whether the subject is compulsory tbh, and more concerned with their treatment of the child.

I can only assume he's not bad behavioured - possibly spirited in his argument, and rightfully so. He has no problems with any other teachers, and is otherwise a polite kid.

amacachi

If it's exam subject he needs to cop on, it's general knowledge about Religion, not an indoctrination. Until you find out if it's the JC subject or "Christian Doctrine" as we were taught alongside the JC it's impossible to answer your question.

Delicate_Dlite

I know when I was in senior cycle they brought it in as a exam subject. I have heard it covers all faiths but leans towards christianity as being 'right'.

Hmm, tbh, it sounds like your nephew is doing it as an exam subject and if that's the case it isn't as simple as a note from the parents. Replacing it with a subject he can get a decent honours grade with may be difficult at this stage.

Is this the full story?, as it's odd that it's only an issue now, in 3rd yr. If his parents don't want him doing it surely, they'd have noticed before.

And as for asking for advice, after he got multiple detentions? Seems odd. Surely if the child gets one due re. religion, they go straight to the school.

I'm probably half asleep, but it's not making any sense to me, surely if they've an idea what subjects he's doing on his J.C. and chatted to him about them.

dlofnep

Delicate_Dlite wrote: »

Is this the full story?, as it's odd that it's only an issue now, in 3rd yr.

Yes, it's the full story. People get wiser as they age. It's only recently that his conviction towards atheism has grown. Or do you expect every child to immediately understand the intricacies of creation from the age of 5 upwards?

Delicate_Dlite wrote: »

If his parents don't want him doing it surely, they'd have noticed before.

It isn't his parents choice that's the issue. They are indifferent either way. It is he who doesn't believe in God. They are passively agnostic to best describe them.

Delicate_Dlite wrote: »

And as for asking for advice, after he got multiple detentions? Seems odd.

What seems odd about getting multiple detentions? There is no hidden mystery. The kid doesn't want to engage in religion class, and was punished as a result.

Choochtown

Most schools in this country have religion as a core (compulsary) subject at Junior Cert.

Any student not wishing to take the subject will have to actively opt out.

The principal of the school will not listen to a teenager when they express their beliefs. It's really up to the parents to articulate the student's wishes and enable the student to sit in an assembly/study area during religion class.

Dades

dlofnep wrote: »

It isn't his parents choice that's the issue. They are indifferent either way. It is he who doesn't believe in God. They are passively agnostic to best describe them.

I think you are underestimating the role the parents should be playing here.

Unless the child gets the backing of the parents - i.e. a note to cease RE class - the child will continue to be seen as a disruptive influence, as this is what he undoubtedly is to a teacher. A school is never going to pull a pupil out of a subject because the pupil has an issue with it.

Of course, kudos to the child for his free-thinking but he is a minor and his choices will never be respected by the system without the support of his parents.

Delicate_Dlite

dlofnep wrote: »

Yes, it's the full story. People get wiser as they age. It's only recently that his conviction towards atheism has grown. Or do you expect every child to immediately understand the intricacies of creation from the age of 5 upwards? <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> It isn't his parents choice that's the issue. They are indifferent either way. It is he who doesn't believe in God. They are passively agnostic to best describe them. <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> What seems odd about getting multiple detentions? There is no hidden mystery. The kid doesn't want to engage in religion class, and was punished as a result.

<br /> <br /> To be fair, you seem to be taking a very agressive/arguementive tone with me, you asked for help I asked for clarification, I was not attacking or in any way insulting you or your family beliefs.

dlofnep wrote: »

Yes, it's the full story. People get wiser as they age. It's only recently that his conviction towards atheism has grown. Or do you expect every child to immediately understand the intricacies of creation from the age of 5 upwards?

No, however if he is feeling like he wanted to drop religion, (you still haven't clarified whether it's 'religious education' or an exam subject) Why did he not discuss this with his parents before returning to school, mention it to his year/class head or councellor or even the teacher.
I find it odd that the teacher didn't want the matter sorted before letting him back in the class tbh, it does sound like the teacher may have over reacted.
However I realise as a child, we don't always know/do the right thing. I simply found it odd, if he knew he wanted to drop it, and after going once and getting detention it didn't come to light or was dealt with.

It isn't his parents choice that's the issue. They are indifferent either way. It is he who doesn't believe in God. They are passively agnostic to best describe them.

No, but surely they've discussed his subject choices with him, I found it unusual in that repsect. I also found it odd, that before contacting the school, they asked for your advice. Surely they'd contact the school first regarding can't he just replace/drop it. If they wanted to know if it was mandatory surely the school/DOE is the most reliable source for that information.

What seems odd about getting multiple detentions? There is no hidden mystery. The kid doesn't want to engage in religion class, and was punished as a result

.

Yes, but why did require multiple detentions for it to be discussed with his parents, surely after the first time it happened, they'd make an appointment and discuss removing him from the class and replacing the subject if he's doing it as an exam subject. He will need his parent permission and support to drop it. So the more they deal with the school, and express that they support his wishes, the quicker the child gets what he wants.

I'm sorry if I appear nosy/rude/insulting it's just I myself dropped a subject and had a lot of hassle made about it at the time , but in a different way. That's is why I asked for clarifiaction.

obliviousgrudge

Well in my school, a Catholic one, as long as bring in a note from your parents you can get out of religion.

Is easy enough. Most of the Protestants don't do religion.

Nemi

amacachi wrote: »

Until you find out if it's the JC subject or "Christian Doctrine" as we were taught alongside the JC it's impossible to answer your question.

I agree that needs to be clarified.

For anyone interested, the Junior Cert Syllabus is here. Its aims are stated as

• To foster an awareness that the human search for meaning is
common to all peoples, of all ages and at all times
• To explore how this search for meaning has found, and continues to
find, expression in religion
• To identify how understandings of God, religious traditions, and in
particular the Christian tradition, have contributed to the culture in
which we live, and continue to have an impact on personal life-style,
inter-personal relationships and relationships between individuals
and their communities and contexts
• To appreciate the richness of religious traditions and to acknowledge
the non-religious interpretation of life
• To contribute to the spiritual and moral development of the student

I suppose we could get mildly miffed over how students seem to be expected to "appreciate the richness of religious traditions", while merely called on to "acknowledge the non-religious interpretation of life".

However, I'd rather be amused that the only reference to atheism (page 31) is in a section "Challenges to Faith", which is restricted to students following the Higher Level course.

Just to know, Google reveals that there is a consultation on the Junior Cycle out there at the moment. It might be worth spending a little time thinking about sending something in. If I get a chance, I certainly will pen something sane and reasonable about some of the assumptions contained in those course aims.

amacachi

One thing I'll say about the JC version of Religion is that it very much seems to depend on which teacher is doing it that decides if they lean towards Christianity being the "right" one. :pac: In my school off the top of my head there were at least 4 (out of ~40) teachers had some theology in their degree (3 with history) so it's like the subject was brought in to give them something to do. :pac:

Shenshen

dlofnep wrote: »

Hi,

My cousin is having trouble with her son. He consistently receives detention for not participating in religion class. He is in third year in secondary school - and he doesn't feel the need to participate because he does not believe in God.

Would my cousin be able to pull him out of class. I feel it is pointless to force religion on him when he is clearly past it, and all it is causing him is grief in school. He does good otherwise in his other subjects - so he shouldn't be receiving detention purely because he doesn't want to engage with religion.

Question - does this class teach religion, or teach about religion?

If it's the first, by all means, take it up with the school.
If it's the second, I don't see why he should be allowed out of a subject just because he's not interested in the facts. He can't opt out of history because he doesn't want to engage with it, either, can he?

iguana

Dades wrote: »

You said he consistently got detention. I only asked as it would be disgraceful to consistently punish a child who was simply being honest.

I'm less concerned about whether the subject is compulsory tbh, and more concerned with their treatment of the child.

It can happen that children are treated unfairly by teachers who have a very religious bent. Two girls in my art class consistently got in a lot of trouble for not standing for morning prayer. We had art as first class two/three mornings a week and the school morning would start with a prayer recited over the intercom at 9am. These two girls would sit quietly while the prayer was said and the art teacher just wouldn't allow it. As it was the school had excused both of them from religion class but that wasn't good enough for this particular teacher. It was a running battle on her part for over a month until the girls' parents came in to put an end to it.

mohawk

Nemi wrote: »

I agree that needs to be clarified.

For anyone interested, the Junior Cert Syllabus is here. Its aims are stated asI suppose we could get mildly miffed over how students seem to be expected to "appreciate the richness of religious traditions", while merely called on to "acknowledge the non-religious interpretation of life".

However, I'd rather be amused that the only reference to atheism (page 31) is in a section "Challenges to Faith", which is restricted to students following the Higher Level course.

Just to know, Google reveals that there is a consultation on the Junior Cycle out there at the moment. It might be worth spending a little time thinking about sending something in. If I get a chance, I certainly will pen something sane and reasonable about some of the assumptions contained in those course aims.

I had thought that religous education was restricted to learning about world religions, but it seems like alot more then that.

I have no problem with children learning about the origins of each religion and their major teachings but it crosses the line when it aims to "contribute to the spiritual and moral development of the student" I would have to take a big issue with that. I think as a parent I should be responsible for this.

I found back in my school days that some religion teachers do not tolerate any deviation from their opinions and beliefs. Any question they did not like would results in you being kicked out of class. The nicest religion teacher I had was a nun who had no problem answering any questions you had about religion. She never felt threatened by questions and would say if she did not know the answer. I guess some people are not secure in their beliefs so they give you detention!