Dublin Bus route 4 and 4/A Dublin Bus routes merged and cut

monument

What's happened to the 4 and 4/A?

Was there any announcement about this at all?

Why has the bus stop info not being changed?

Cuts would explain why I was waiting for ages for a bus on Sunday and I know somebody else who did the same on Monday.

Some quotes from the now crazy and becoming less useful by the day Network Direct thread (there's too many different discussions going on in there!):

dynamick wrote:

What has changed with the 4? The timetable shows a 15 minute frequency all day on weekdays. Is this not how it was before?

markpb wrote: »

Nope, they used to operate every 20 minutes each meaning a combined 10 minute headway. Saturdays were every 15 minutes, now every 30. Sundays were every 30, now every hour.

devnull wrote: »

I didn't see it either, although late on it was mentioned that there would be a terminus change to Monkstown, but Dublin Bus always maintained that there would be no cuts to route 4/A but instead we have seen savage frequency cuts.

Route 4 was never mentioned at all, from when network direct was mentioned, through to the numerous drafts that came out over the subsequent months, although there were a few murmurs, that the terminus may change at some stage, but it was always maintained that the frequency was untouched.

There was rumors I think from the Socialist Party a few times that cuts would happen, but given this parties previous record for claiming big cuts would happen which never did, I didn't really take much notice of it to be honest. It seems to have been snuck in by the back door at the last minute, and even when announced Dublin Bus made no mention of the frequency cuts, just the fact that it would now be an improved service that serves Monkstown.

TheChrisD

The 4 is still running with an average level of service of 15 minutes weekdays, 30 minutes Saturdays, and every hour Sundays.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/4-/

monument

That's still a cut?

Where did the 4A go to?

TheChrisD

monument wrote: »

That's still a cut?

Where did the 4A go to?

Axed. From what I gather from the main thread, the bendy buses were being retired, and as such the 4A took the hit.

KD345

monument wrote: »

That's still a cut?

Where did the 4A go to?

The 4a was just an extension of the 4 to Stradbrook, but now the 4 has been extended to Monkstown Farm all buses travel the full route.

There was lots of press coverage about the changes and they expect to have timetables up within the week.

dfx-

As of yesterday, AW9 and 10 were out and about, looking repainted and almost new with new destination of Monkstown Avenue on the front..

Which is some achievement for those battered buses...

monument

KD345 wrote: »

There was lots of press coverage about the changes

Was there anything that said anything about the cuts on the 4 or 4/A?

KD345 wrote: »

and they expect to have timetables up within the week.

Sorry... timetables up after a change is made? Err... what?

I can't see anything on Dublin Buses website about there being a changed. I mean, no notice saying there will be or is a change -- and the 4/A timetable has been 'disappeared' rather than a note saying what has happened.

This is all unreal stuff.

Cookie_Monster

monument wrote: »

What's happened to the 4 and 4/A?

Was there any announcement about this at all?

Why has the bus stop info not being changed?

Cuts would explain why I was waiting for ages for a bus on Sunday and I know somebody else who did the same on Monday.

1. merged & extended
2. there is a new timetable on the site
3. cos DB are useless
4. no it wouldn't, only started on Monday

KD345

This is what was stated about route 4:

Route 4 will be extended to Monkstown Avenue providing connections to Blackrock, Ballsbridge, City Centre, DCU and IKEA.

There was no mention of cuts, which have come as a surprise to most people. Up until last week I would have regarded the 4 as being one of the flagship routes on the network.

Dublin Bus had two timetables on their site last week. One which was the old 4/4A timetable and the current new timetable. I can understand them removing the old timetable, as this would just lead to confusion.

It's a shame they don't have new timetables on stops, you would think this is the first to have in place when launching new services.

KC61

monument wrote: »

and the 4/A timetable has been 'disappeared' rather than a note saying what has happened.

This is all unreal stuff.

Why would you leave an old timetable on the website? The current timetable is there and has been there since last week.

I don't disagree that the dissemination of information has been poor on the ground, but the website was quite clear last week - the old timetable had a note that a new timetable was being implemented from last Sunday.

As for the cutbacks well it appears from Alek Smart's information here that the NTA may have had more to do with this than Dublin Bus.

markpb

KC61 wrote: »

I don't disagree that the dissemination of information has been poor on the ground, but the website was quite clear last week - the old timetable had a note that a new timetable was being implemented from last Sunday.

For the first round of Network Direct changes DB:
- did some public consultation (but none along the 4 corridor)
- put the changes on the website (but didn't mention the cuts to the 4)
- puts adverts in the paper which were quite good but didn't mention the 4
- took the timetables down at bus stops but didn't put the new ones up in time

Compare this to the 6-monthly bus route review in Los Angeles:

Consistent with Federal requirements and agency policy, the proposals have been reviewed by the public hearings held on August 4, August 9, August 11, August 12, and August 13, 2010.

The Notice of Public Hearing (Attachment A) was first published in the Los Angeles Times on Sunday, June 27, 2010. Additional notices were subsequently published in other local, regional, and foreign language newspapers system-wide. About 100,000 marketing take-ones were distributed on buses, trains, and at customer service outlets informing riders of the proposals under consideration.

Rider bulletins were posted on all Metro buses.

The Notice of Public Hearing was also posted on Metro's main website.

During the month of July, Metro Service Planning staff set out over a two-week period to inform the riding public of upcoming service changes to be implemented in December, 2010. Information regarding five public hearings to be held in August was also provided, along with timetables and other transit information. Comment cards were also available at each location for those who might not be able to attend a public hearing.

Service Planning staff provided information at 12 locations. Each location was staffed by two planners who were most familiar with the geographic service area. In addition, Lines 607 and 608 were ridden to inform patrons of proposed changes. Due to the fact that neither of these two lines serves a major transit hub or station location, it was felt that riding the buses was the best outreach approach.

In total, approximately 1,000 patrons were contacted at both transit hubs and stations or on buses.

With Board approval, the service changes will be effective December 12, 2010. Staff will notify customers with on-board brochures describing service changes. Also, new timetables with schedule and route modifications will be available on MTA buses in
early June.

KC61

Mark - I'm not disagreeing about the level of information but I'm at a loss to understand why someone would want the old timetable to still be on the website?

markpb

KC61 wrote: »

Mark - I'm not disagreeing about the level of information but I'm at a loss to understand why someone would want the old timetable to still be on the website?

From my reading, he wanted a note on the timetable page explaining what had happened the route. That seems reasonable to me.

monument

KC61 wrote: »

Why would you leave an old timetable on the website? The current timetable is there and has been there since last week.

You delete the timetable but keep the page up which (a) just auto redirects to the 4 timetable, (b) explains that the 4/A is "merged" with the 4 and link to its timetable, or (c) explain about the merger and auto direct after a few seconds.

As it stands now it looks like the page is broken rather the route changed. Tried the page on different browsers and got an error other than a not found error.

KC61 wrote: »

I don't disagree that the dissemination of information has been poor on the ground, but the website was quite clear last week - the old timetable had a note that a new timetable was being implemented from last Sunday.

That's poor. A website has to be clear about something like this for more than a week.

Infrequent users are unlikely to see it. Why would you even check the timetable? When there's something wrong or changed with a services it should be noted in the operators' news or travel alerts.

This is even poorer given a load of people will be back looking for the bus next week as returning students go back to DCU. And the changes likely to have been confusing to new students too.

KC61

monument wrote: »

You delete the timetable but keep the page up which (a) just auto redirects to the 4 timetable, (b) explains that the 4/A is "merged" with the 4 and link to its timetable, or (c) explain about the merger and auto direct after a few seconds.

As it stands now it looks like the page is broken rather the route changed. Tried the page on different browsers and got an error other than a not found error.




That's poor. A website has to be clear about something like this for more than a week.

Infrequent users are unlikely to see it. Why would you even check the timetable? When there's something wrong or changed with a services it should be noted in the operators' news or travel alerts.

This is even poorer given a load of people will be back looking for the bus next week as returning students go back to DCU. And the changes likely to have been confusing to new students too.

Sorry - you weren't clear that you bookmarked the page.

In fairness most people would not bookmark the actual timetable page but would do a fresh search which does result in the new timetable - that way you will always get the most up to date version - but I take your point.

To be honest I would never bookmark a specific route timetable page for any operator for the very simple reason that there could be late changes - far better to bookmark the timetable index page.

monument

I don't have it bookmarked. Most people Google these days, and I'd expect more so given the poor Dublin Bus website:

Even when you search Google for 'Dublin Bus no 4' etc you get the 4/a link and that currently leads you to this:

This web page is not available.

The web page at http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/your-journey1/timetables/all-timetables/4a/ might be temporarily down or it may have moved permanently to a new web address.

More information on this error
Below is the original error message

Error 330 (net::ERR_CONTENT_DECODING_FAILED): Unknown error.

There's also the issue of getting nothing when within Dublin Bus' website while trying to search for the 4/a -- the website is so poor people are likely to think they are doing something wrong or there's something wrong with the site (many would go to Google at this stage if they had not already tried it).

Also...

KD345 wrote: »

This is what was stated about route 4:

Route 4 will be extended to Monkstown Avenue providing connections to Blackrock, Ballsbridge, City Centre, DCU and IKEA.

There was no mention of cuts, which have come as a surprise to most people. Up until last week I would have regarded the 4 as being one of the flagship routes on the network.

Dublin Bus had two timetables on their site last week. One which was the old 4/4A timetable and the current new timetable. I can understand them removing the old timetable, as this would just lead to confusion.

It's a shame they don't have new timetables on stops, you would think this is the first to have in place when launching new services.

Agreed on the flagship comments.

As well as nothing about cuts, that announcement did not even mention that the 4 and 4/A would be merged.

And as we can all agree, its crazy stuff to not change the timetables at stops or put notices up at least.

KC61

monument wrote: »

I don't have it bookmarked. Most people Google these days, and I'd expect more so given the poor Dublin Bus website:

Even when you search Google for 'Dublin Bus no 4' etc you get the 4/a link and that currently leads you to this:



There's also the issue of getting nothing when within Dublin Bus' website while trying to search for the 4/a -- the website is so poor people are likely to think they are doing something wrong or there's something wrong with the site (many would go to Google at this stage if they had not already tried it).

Also...



Agreed on the flagship comments.

As well as nothing about cuts, that announcement did not even mention that the 4 and 4/A would be merged.

And as we can all agree, its crazy stuff to not change the timetables at stops or put notices up at least.

I would disagree - most people would go directly to the Dublin Bus website for the timetable.

Google is hardly the official source for such information and whatever about the lack of information I don't think Dublin Bus can be held responsible for the google link being wrong given the timetable has changed.

How hard is it to go www.dublinbus.ie and then click on timetables and enter the number 4? I genuinely think most people would use that method.

markpb

KC61 wrote: »

How hard is it to go www.dublinbus.ie and then click on timetables and enter the number 4? I genuinely think most people would use that method.

People will do that if they know the route. People who don't know, will google things like "ballsbridge buses" or "RDS buses", moreso because the journey planner is so new. Or other websites (or brochures, advertising material, etc) might have travel information on them which is now incorrect.

KC61

markpb wrote: »

People will do that if they know the route. People who don't know, will google things like "ballsbridge buses" or "RDS buses", moreso because the journey planner is so new. Or other websites (or brochures, advertising material, etc) might have travel information on them which is now incorrect.

With respect Mark, while I do agree with the comments with regard to timetables not being at stops, and the notices regarding the changes not being clear enough, DB cannot really be held responsible for google links.

The key is that the Dublin Bus website has the up to date timetable which it does and has done since last week. They have enough things to worry about without recourse to external websites.

monument

KC61 wrote: »

I would disagree - most people would go directly to the Dublin Bus website for the timetable. Google is hardly the official source for such information.

Google isn't an official source of anything, it's how vast amounts of people get to websites these days.

KC61 wrote: »

How hard is it to go www.dublinbus.ie and then click on timetables?

Quite hard give when I do on site timetable search for the 4a I get a choice of the 14a, 54a, and 74a.


lol or cry out loud maybe...

I also just did a search for DCU, the Ballymun Road stop appeared in the search while I was typing and so I clicked on it. And the page has nothing on it!

markpb

KC61 wrote: »

The key is that the Dublin Bus website has the up to date timetable which it does and has done since last week. They have enough things to worry about without recourse to external websites.

That's exactly the attitude that DB have and it sucks. If you take down a route page, it's *trivial* to leave a note saying that the route has been dropped or changed and provide a link to the new route or timetable. It's not time-consuming, it's not rocket science, it's just basic customer service. DB have demonstrated, time and time again that they don't know and don't care.

KC61

markpb wrote: »

That's exactly the attitude that DB have and it sucks. If you take down a route page, it's *trivial* to leave a note saying that the route has been dropped or changed and provide a link to the new route or timetable. It's not time-consuming, it's not rocket science, it's just basic customer service. DB have demonstrated, time and time again that they don't know and don't care.

Genuinely Mark on this one you are expecting too much. Really I think that provided the list of timetables and the index on their own website is updated (which it was and is) I think that is sufficient.

While people might google what bus goes where, the vast majority would always look the timetable up on the company website.

I think that the numbers of people who would do what monument did are to be fair miniscule.

monument

KC61 wrote: »

With respect Mark, while I do agree with the comments with regard to timetables not being at stops, and the notices regarding the changes not being clear enough, DB cannot really be held responsible for google links..

This is another example of Dublin Bus working within a bubble. Welcome to 2010. This is how the internet works and the way it is used by most people. I've already outlined ways that Dublin Bus can keep the page up and have a notice on it or redirect it to the no 4 timetable.

KC61 wrote: »

The key is that the Dublin Bus website has the up to date timetable which it does and has done since last week. They have enough things to worry about without recourse to external websites.

Given that overall no notice of the changes and cuts were given, that's meaningless.

KC61

monument wrote: »

This is another example of Dublin Bus working within a bubble. Welcome to 2010. This is how the internet works and the way it is used by most people. I've already outlined ways that Dublin Bus can keep the page up and have a notice on it or redirect it to the no 4 timetable.




Given that overall no notice of the changes and cuts were given, that's meaningless.

Look I don't work in Dublin Bus but if I am going anywhere on public transport I would always check the relevant operator's website. I do believe that is what most people would do. Relying on google to give you accurate links to actual timetables (for any operator be it bus or rail) as opposed to an index is not realistic.

We'll have to agree to disagree - I don't think that the level of information was sufficient (and I've said that several times), but the fact remains that the timetables themselves were accurate on the website.

monument

KC61 wrote: »

Look I don't work in Dublin Bus but if I am going anywhere on public transport I would always check the relevant operator's website. I do believe that is what most people would do. Relying on google to give you accurate links to actual timetables (for any operator be it bus or rail) as opposed to an index is not realistic.

We'll have to agree to disagree - I don't think that the level of information was sufficient (and I've said that several times), but the fact remains that the timetables themselves were accurate on the website.

No, all I'm saying is for Google to be used as an index. And when searching for the no 4 you get the 4a and you get an error page.

Most people who are used to a route won't search a timetable unless it has been changed and given there was no notice of the change, few would have checked.

I can't understand how a removed timetable that's not there is accurate. It's meaningless to say that the 4 timetable is accurate, because a huge amount of people will still be looking for the 4a and searching Google for the 4 brings you to the 4a anyway.

KC61

monument wrote: »

No, all I'm saying is for Google to be used as an index. And when searching for the no 4 you get the 4a and you get an error page.

Most people who are used to a route won't search a timetable unless it has been changed and given there was no notice of the change, few would have checked.

I can't understand how a removed timetable that's not there is accurate. It's meaningless to say that the 4 timetable is accurate, because a huge amount of people will still be looking for the 4a and searching Google for the 4 brings you to the 4a anyway.

Let's agree to disagree on this one - I would always check the operator website directly for timetables.

TheChrisD

KC61 wrote: »

In fairness most people would not bookmark the actual timetable page but would do a fresh search which does result in the new timetable - that way you will always get the most up to date version - but I take your point.

Actually I think most people would since it's hell trying to go all the way through their site to try and get to it again. I have my 70 timetable bookmarked for convenience, and if they ever change that timetable, it would be appreciated if they were to mention it, or at least have the "Operational date" marked out in huge letters.

KD345

The interesting thing for me is that route 4 was specifically looked at in the Deloitte report. They examined running time and felt that while the timetable was sufficient, more running time was needed at peak hours, and less during off-peak. They even suggested all evening buses could be 4As, as there was ample time to continue to Stradbrook and stick to the timetable.

The report highlighted whenever there was a gap in the timetable, the bus had longer dwell times at stops and made it less reliable. Now, we have a route which has been cut in frequency, extended to Monkstown and uses smaller buses.

I'm quite happy with all the other changes, but just puzzled by the 4.

devnull

There still are quite a few bendy buses out there today, saw around half a dozen or so, didn't see a 4 which was not one, which was good news, some common sense seems to have prevailed in this case. Hope they stay until the current timetable situation is resolved.

Although it still seems to be very tight for time, I was on one mid morning well after peak and the bus ahead of us dropped passengers on to our bus as the the driver on ours was radioed to say the guy ahead was very late due to traffic so he should run out of service to Monkstown to prevent a large gap.

First time I've ever seen regulation on the 4 like that in years of getting it.

KC61

devnull wrote: »

There still are quite a few bendy buses out there today, saw around half a dozen or so, didn't see a 4 which was not one, which was good news, some common sense seems to have prevailed in this case. Hope they stay until the current timetable situation is resolved.

Although it still seems to be very tight for time, I was on one mid morning well after peak and the bus ahead of us dropped passengers on to our bus as the the driver on ours was radioed to say the guy ahead was very late due to traffic so he should run out of service to Monkstown to prevent a large gap.

First time I've ever seen regulation on the 4 like that in years of getting it.

The benefit of AVLC which is operational in Harristown.

trellheim

So.... perchance they didn't add a stop at Westmoreland St as well and fix a gigantic hole in this route's stops ?

PS if you google dublin bus route 4 the first hit is the 4/a which is invalid.

all they had to do was put a redirect in, super simple stuff for a webmaster/content maintainer

Also if you look at the 4 timetable its 1/2 hourly southbound and hourly northbound...

If you get this route from ballsbridge into town it is jammers every morning whether 4 or 4a can't believe they've hauled it back especially with DCU resuming as it's a key town feeder to DCU

devnull

It's the same from Town to Ballsbridge in the morning also and very evening from Ballsbridge to Town in evening peak.

AlekSmart

KD345 posted...

I'm quite happy with all the other changes, but just puzzled by the 4.

Indeed 345,there are a lot of heads well scratched concerning the substantial cuts to the 4/4A route.

It is almost as if someone was deliberately giving Mssrs Deloitte and inter alia,Mr Dempsey the bird....;)

However there appears to be a growing backlash,both internal and external to what has happened this week and I would imagine the Fat Lady has`nt finished her aria just yet.......:eek:

KD345

Alek there is definitely something not right.

I read the Deloitte report again today specifically about route 4. Nowhere in the report does it mention slashing the frequency or extending the route to Monkstown, so where did this decision come from?

Here we have a company, Deloitte, who was paid to carry out an extensive report on the network. They sampled a couple of routes and detailed areas where improvements could be made. Now, it seems the suggestions and reports on one of those routes has been ignored. What does that say about the rest of the plans for Network Direct?